Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > General Poly Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 12-24-2009, 08:02 AM
redpepper's Avatar
redpepper redpepper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,639
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I watched the little drummer boy tonight with my son. That old one from my childhood where the drummer boy follows the star and takes his lame lamb to the kings to see if they will help him...
this is much like a journey to self discovery....

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
they can't help him but they say that he should look at the baby in the manger as he is the king of kings...
look inside himself to find the way?


Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
the drummer boy feels inadequate as he has no grand gifts, but plays his drum instead.
All he can do is be himself to the best of his ability?

My husband was suggesting tonight that perhaps love is not the thing that is needed but connection to one another. It seems that as a back lash to the stifling relationships of our ancestors we now take it to the other extreme it seems in society and that is we see needing others as a weakness sometimes.
__________________
Anyone want to be friends on Facebook?
Send me your name via PM
My blog

Last edited by NeonKaos; 12-24-2009 at 12:59 PM. Reason: merge posts
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-24-2009, 08:19 AM
MonoVCPHG's Avatar
MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In Redpepper's heart
Posts: 4,742
Default

Pendulums swing. We see this all the time. Usually they go from one extreme to the other before settling in the place where they belong...in moderation.

The pendulum itself is usually pulled by strong vocal and influential people or groups on either end. Sometimes those people don't follow the pendulum as it settles and stay firm in their position...the remainder finds that moderation and establishes the place of peace and comfort where the majority reside.
__________________

Playing the Game of Life with Monopoly rules.
Monogamy might just be in my genes

Poly Events All Over
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-24-2009, 02:21 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New England USA
Posts: 1,231
Default Interesting question

Hi RP,

Well - that is indeed an interesting question and for myself will have to do some real thinking to clarify my own thoughts. I don't know that I've ever seen that question posed in quite that manner.
Because of my own background in Eastern thought, the term "need" may have slightly different connotations than to some others. To me, "need" has pretty much been dangerous, potentially negative thing. We have basic needs of food, shelter, safety etc for survival. Beyond that, identifying any large number of "wants" as "needs" puts us on the edge of a slippery slope where it's easy to lose the distinction between what are truly physical needs. It's the beginnings of being "needy", of forming what are commonly termed "attachments", which can have profound negative consequences on our well being.
Your question seems to lead to a question of "is there such a thing as a 'healthy' need" (beyond the basic survival needs). It's interesting to toss some form of love or companionship into that mix because we view those terms as generally "positive". But by accepting anything as a "need" we are granting it the power of dependency. And dependency is a dangerous position to be in.
But are they ? Truly ? They are definitely "wants".
So, it's an interesting thought !

Happy holidays to everyone !

GS's
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-24-2009, 02:24 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New England USA
Posts: 1,231
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Pendulums swing. Sometimes those people don't follow the pendulum as it settles and stay firm in their position...the remainder finds that moderation and establishes the place of peace and comfort where the majority reside.
Yeppers, and sometimes the MAJORITIES stay stuck to their sides and refuse to settle <wink>
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-24-2009, 04:58 PM
redpepper's Avatar
redpepper redpepper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,639
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
But by accepting anything as a "need" we are granting it the power of dependency. And dependency is a dangerous position to be in.
That would be an interesting thing for you to think about then. Where does love fit in to that? Where does anyone fit into that besides the self? I would suggest that love/connection/togetherness with others is just as important as other basic needs.

When I see people on the street I think of this topic as their lives are down to basics. Having worked with this population I know that one of the most important keys to survival is each other out there. Having food to eat, protection for their bodies and each other is essential.
__________________
Anyone want to be friends on Facebook?
Send me your name via PM
My blog
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-24-2009, 10:39 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 900
Default

Humans definitely have a fundamental need to be connected with those around us. Our very ability to live with each other is determined from the experiences of our earliest days. I used to work with kids who had been in orphanages from their earliest days. These kids received no affection as infants and toddlers and now that they are older, they are fundamentally unable to feel empathy or connect with other human beings. In that case the need is very real and very important.

For me, that connection is definitely a need, but it's a need that can be fulfilled in so many different ways. Romantic love is one of them. I can definitely say that when I feel that kind love, it provides an enrichment to my life that I seek and move towards when it's there. But I've gone through long enough stretches of not having that kind of love in my life to know that I can seek my happiness in other ways of connecting.

I've also learned that when my love for someone starts translating into needing them, it starts to cast a shadow on the love we share. It starts to cage that love in ways that strain my feelings. When I feel need for someone, it starts feeling like possession. I've found that the whole "when you love someone, set them free" really applies for me. The love I feel is so much more nourishing when I let it go.

That said, there are moments of grace in life when experiencing love from another person somehow sets something free in yourself. Sadly there are far too many people in the world that never experience such grace. Some manage to find their freedom despite that, others remain trapped. (I think that's why I like Dickens' A Christmas Carol so much- its really about a moment of grace that allows a man to set himself free from the pain that held him down)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-25-2009, 01:44 PM
LadyMacbeth LadyMacbeth is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 29
Default

Being really into attachment theory, I have to add that a guy named John Bolby followed my Mary Ainsworth and others (Heinz Kohut, on and on) have written reams about how attachment is an intrinsic need...and their work has fundamentally impacted how I view love and the concept of "neediness." We're programmed as humans to seek proximity and "need" proximity when in distress or having other strong emotions. It's something we shrinks call "healthy dependence" as opposed to unhealthy, as mono discussed (abuse, codependence, etc.)
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-25-2009, 03:50 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kansas City Metro
Posts: 2,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyMacbeth View Post
Being really into attachment theory, I have to add that a guy named John Bolby followed my Mary Ainsworth and others (Heinz Kohut, on and on) have written reams about how attachment is an intrinsic need...and their work has fundamentally impacted how I view love and the concept of "neediness." We're programmed as humans to seek proximity and "need" proximity when in distress or having other strong emotions. It's something we shrinks call "healthy dependence" as opposed to unhealthy, as mono discussed (abuse, codependence, etc.)
I rarely remember the names of the folks whose works I've read (or whose work has been discussed in something else I've read), so it's quite nice to have somebody else around who can provide references. And probably explain things more clearly than can I. And have absorbed a greater breadth of material than have I, given that psychology has always been a secondary study for me. Speak up on the differences between healthy and dysfunctional dependence, please.
__________________
When speaking of various forms of non-monogamy...it ain't poly if you're just fucking around.

While polyamory, open relationships, and swinging are all distinctly different approaches to non-monogamy, they are not mutually exlusive. Folks can, and some do, engage in more than one of them at a time--and it's all good.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-25-2009, 04:29 PM
LadyMacbeth LadyMacbeth is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 29
Default

Speak up on the differences between healthy and dysfunctional dependence, please.[/QUOTE]

Oh, lots to be said. I suppose it can be summed up in the difference, discussed by Ainsworth and others, between "secure attachment," and "anxious attachment" and "dismissive" attachment styles, as well as "disorganized attachment." Wiki has a nice overview at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory

Overall, I believe that "healthy" is a balance between allowing oneself to need another, as well as having a full and healthy sense of independence in a balanced way. In other words, equally valuing attachment and individuation as core internal needs. So...a "healthy dependence" has a balance of both, an "unhealthy dependence" would involve either focusing on individuality/individuation at the expense of connecting deeply with others (eg being disconnected, nonemotive, unaware of emotions, etc) *or* focusing on attachment/connection at the expense of the self (eg staying in an abusive or controlling relationship out of fear of losing the loved other.)

Of course lots more could be said...
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-25-2009, 05:13 PM
redpepper's Avatar
redpepper redpepper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,639
Default

Thank you so much for going in this direction! I was thinking of mentioning attachment theory as its how I am raising my boy. Connection hand in hand with independence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyMacbeth View Post
Speak up on the differences between healthy and dysfunctional dependence, please.
Oh, lots to be said. I suppose it can be summed up in the difference, discussed by Ainsworth and others, between "secure attachment," and "anxious attachment" and "dismissive" attachment styles, as well as "disorganized attachment." Wiki has a nice overview at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory

Overall, I believe that "healthy" is a balance between allowing oneself to need another, as well as having a full and healthy sense of independence in a balanced way. In other words, equally valuing attachment and individuation as core internal needs. So...a "healthy dependence" has a balance of both, an "unhealthy dependence" would involve either focusing on individuality/individuation at the expense of connecting deeply with others (eg being disconnected, nonemotive, unaware of emotions, etc) *or* focusing on attachment/connection at the expense of the self (eg staying in an abusive or controlling relationship out of fear of losing the loved other.)

Of course lots more could be said...[/QUOTE]
__________________
Anyone want to be friends on Facebook?
Send me your name via PM
My blog
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
loving, neediness

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:43 PM.