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  #21  
Old 12-21-2009, 08:32 PM
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It seems "lonely and sad to me" because it is "lonely and sad TO ME" I am not judging in that statement and would suggest that if it is seen as so then that is a judgement.

What I wanted to say about my last post was that having talked to Mono over the last days it occurs to me that I have been not speaking to our relationship in such a way that would promote people around us thinking that I am okay in it. I have been saying "I'm not allowed to have other men in my life sexually." I should of been saying, "I'm not interested in having othe men in my life sexually as I want to experience what I have and that is more important to me." while this is longer to say, it reflects more how I feel.

Good point Mono. Thanks.
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Last edited by redpepper; 12-21-2009 at 08:35 PM.
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  #22  
Old 12-21-2009, 08:57 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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I've said this before so i don't want to sound as though I'm stuck in a feedback-loop BUT...

I wish people weren't so hung up on "judge not lest ye be judged". The kind of "judgment" that is being discussed on this forum is not biblical-style judgment. So far I haven't seen anyone here suggesting or endorsing that someone be stoned or excommunicated for their lifestyle choices.

The kind of "judgment" that we DO see on this forum is the type that speaks more about the person MAKING the judgment than it does about the person "being judged", and is not on the social order of violating someone's human rights.

Having said that, sometimes people need to hear things they don't want to hear. Internet forums are a great way of providing that because sometimes the people we have in our day-to-day lives are either too close to give us an objective opinion, or we may not hear their opinions in a way that effectively gets the message across.

There is barely a fine line between "opinion" and "judgment" and sometimes there is no difference in essence, only differences in the way something is perceived. Keep in mind that if I'm "judging" you, you can walk away from me or not listen, and there is not a thing I can do about that. I can "judge" you all I want, but only you can allow yourself to "be judged".

(Again, all "you"s are general, not aimed at RedPepper, Ceoli, Joreth, or anyone else in particular)
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  #23  
Old 12-21-2009, 09:10 PM
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Agreed ygirl. Thank you for pointing that out. I wish for my words to be seen as opinions nothing more, I try and see others that way, I would appreciate the same respect.
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  #24  
Old 12-21-2009, 10:00 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I wish people weren't so hung up on "judge not lest ye be judged". The kind of "judgment" that is being discussed on this forum is not biblical-style judgment. So far I haven't seen anyone here suggesting or endorsing that someone be stoned or excommunicated for their lifestyle choices.
Yeah. The "judgement" I see in discussion involves that of "there are many ways to do this and I find this one works best for these reasons." That, however, is not a judgement on the people doing things in a different fashion. Indeed, for me--and I imagine for most folks here--if what any particular person is doing is working for them, I'm all for them continuing to do that until it quits working for them.

Comparison and contrast of different approaches provides information. It provides information on the variety of approaches people take to achieve the same ends. It provides added information for each to consider for when what they're doing isn't getting the results they want. It provides information that may have been missing when somebody decided to do what they do and now they can adjust to find something that works better.

I'd say it's a mistake to look at that sort of "judgement" dealing with ideas and view it as an attack on a person or an attempt to convert anybody to doing things differently. It's simply a way to share information--and the goal (for everyone, I hope)--is to help others find what works best for them.

I rail against the mis-use of terms so that we can know what in hell it is we're speaking of. That's not a judgement against the people who try to stretch terms to cover more ground than they should, it's commentary on the use of language and what works well and doesn't. Folks can still mis-use terms as they wish--it'll just result in muddled discussion.

And so on.
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  #25  
Old 12-21-2009, 10:37 PM
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I actually wrote a big long post on just that seventh, but lost it due to being on a bus and having to get off. Haha... Thanks for posting what is was thinking for me :P.
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  #26  
Old 12-21-2009, 11:49 PM
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ImaginaryIllusion ImaginaryIllusion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I have been saying "I'm not allowed to have other men in my life sexually." I should of been saying, "I'm not interested in having othe men in my life sexually as I want to experience what I have and that is more important to me." while this is longer to say, it reflects more how I feel.
Oh I used to get in trouble for that all the time...and probably will continue to do so, whenever I used to say to my friends "Would love to go for a beer...let me check if I'm allowed!" or "Can't attend the party, not allowed out to tonight!" which was never a matter of not actually being allowed...just was always easier to say it that way.

My wife never seemed to see the humour in it.
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  #27  
Old 12-22-2009, 12:09 AM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventhCrow View Post
I'd say it's a mistake to look at that sort of "judgement" dealing with ideas and view it as an attack on a person or an attempt to convert anybody to doing things differently. It's simply a way to share information--and the goal (for everyone, I hope)--is to help others find what works best for them.
I have done this, and the first example that comes to mind is the thread on here started by a guy who was involved with two sisters. I continue to reaffirm that I do not agree that this is "right" (and River started a whole thread for discussing taboos, ethics, etc.), but that does not mean that I don't believe that gentleman has the right to do what he wants to as long as they're all consenting adults, blah blah, yak yak, etc. etc. and so on and so forth.


Here are those two threads, for anyone who's interested:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=601

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=612


The thing that stands out to me most is that someone says "If the people involved are ok with it, then it's ok". But reading the situation, the people involved are obviously NOT ok with it. So, *I* am the one being "judgmental"?

In case no one can tell, this is a pet peeve of mine (both the "judgment" thing as well as to a certain extent the dating-first-degree-relations thing). But I have just inhaled a glass of wine and it is starting to hit me so I'm cutting this post short before I make a mess of it.
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  #28  
Old 12-22-2009, 12:15 AM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I have been saying "I'm not allowed to have other men in my life sexually." I should of been saying, "I'm not interested in having othe men in my life sexually as I want to experience what I have and that is more important to me." while this is longer to say, it reflects more how I feel.

I know that what you really did is you made the CHOICE to have a certain man in your life sexually and the reality of that choice requires you to refrain from pursuing additional sexual relationships with other men.

I think this is more accurate than saying you're "not allowed" or "not interested". I don't know what's going on in your mind. Correct me if I am wrong!
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  #29  
Old 12-22-2009, 04:39 AM
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An opinion by it's very nature is a judgment.

I have nothing against judgments or opinions. But I will say one thing, I don't agree with the idea that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do believe that everyone is entitled to an informed opinion, however. We run into trouble when opinions are offered about another person's experience, because more often than not, it's waaaay less than informed. When those experiences in question start to delve into larger ethical questions, or when those experiences have a tangible effect on others around the, then informed opinions can often be appropriate.
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  #30  
Old 12-22-2009, 08:40 PM
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Thanks for the response GS, I appreciate it... I'm struggling to really put across what I mean. I get so hurt by others and their lack of being able to just "be" in relationships... there always seems to have to be some drama or point made. Is it that people just feel like they have to fulfill their potential, or is it that they just need to be right? Is it that their passion cuts off their humanity like a double edged sword? I don't know?
I know one issue I have (that drives Maca crazy) is that I AM always striving to fulfil my personal potential. Sometimes that can be a relationship issue, particularly if the person I am with is "backpedaling".

I do prefer to just "be" in relationships and enjoy them. But at the same time, in order for me to continue growing-I need a certain amount of autonomy and acceptance and/or the person I am in a relationship with to be growing as well.....

On a side note-I HATE drama, but I SWEAR I am a magnet for it! It's rare that any of the drama in our lives is centered around our personal family relationships-but the people around us tend to strongly depend on us in their issues-so their drama permeates.

The last year or so I've found myself minimizing some friendships for exactly that reason. I just need a break from the drama-and the only way I seem to be able to find peace from it is to distance myself from them...
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