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  #391  
Old 10-15-2012, 02:25 PM
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SNeacail SNeacail is offline
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HUGS!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
He's apologetic and desperate for a 'quick fix' which doesnt exist.
So typically male . He'll need reminders that it's not "fixed", but is progressing. One good day, he'll think everything is good, then be surprised when everything explodes a day later.
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  #392  
Old 10-20-2012, 10:08 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Default Communicating w/ self responsibility for our limitations

Posted on this thread http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30556
A point and technicality regarding how we communicate that I think it very pertinent to maintaining boundaries, personal responsibility AND reducing conflict between metamours.



Quote:
Honesty-CRITICAL point to me-bit drama in my life over "lies of omission" and "sugar-coating" the truth (as Maca put it).
It's a hard lesson for many people, as our society promotes so much lying (to ourselves and to others) and people really have to be motivated to do a lot of slowing down-so they can pay attention to what is going on in their mind FULLY before they open their mouth.
What you describe-is TO ME lying TO YOU by omission.

It was also lying to her by omission-BUT I don't think he needs to tell her what the agreement is-
he needs to claim his choices
EVEN IF HE WAS HESITANT TO AGREE,
if he has agreed-it is now HIS CHOICE to limit his availability.

(as for WHY you two have that agreement-I'm not going to get into it)

I won't re-iterate what I detailed in the links that BG already posted.

But-I will say, that agreements between any two partners, aren't the business of additional partners.

Let me give a small example that combined with what I wrote regarding rules in the other thread may help.

I have two partners. Maca and GG.

Maca and I have a fairly extensive written agreement (feel free to read it on my personal blog, boundaries page).
GG and I do not have a written agreement.

However, GG and I do have a verbal agreement that includes the detail that I will have no other male lovers (besides himself and Maca).

THIS IS NOT part of my agreement with Maca.
I have NOT shared this verbal agreement info with Maca because IT DOES NOT AFFECT HIM IN ANY WAY and therefore is completely not pertinent to him.

I have been approached by other men who are interested in dating me.
I do not tell them about this agreement either.
I tell them the truth AS IT PERTAINS TO THEM

"I'm not open to having another partner at this time."

This is the absolute truth because EVEN THOUGH I don't have an agreement with EITHER Maca or GG that I can't date a woman, I have an agreement WITH MYSELF that I won't consider having a third partner until after I get my Bachelors degree.

Therefore, saying that I am not open to having another partner is the truth and it is the whole truth.
IF someone asked me about my reasons, I would elaborate upon the fact that I am in school and unable to give the amount of time and attention I PERSONALLY deem appropriate to another relationship.

At no point does it matter that GG would prefer I not date another man. BECAUSE GG's preference does not dictate my decisions. When I agreed to his request, it became MY choice and MY decision.

I find it VERY VERY VERY VERY (keep repeating that a few dozen times) to tell another person that you can (or can't) do x,y,z "because" of your partner. That is shrugging off the personal responsibility for your choices.

A sentence example (or two):

"Safer sex is very important to me and therefore I choose not to participate in any sex acts before having STI testing done for myself and the other party."-self responsibility shown

"We have an agreement that none of us will have sex with another person before everyone has STI testing done."-shrugging off personal responsibility

OR

"I make time with my current partners a high priority, so in considering new partners, I am looking for someone who is willing to socialize as a group with my current partners in order to allow more time for me to spend with each partner overall."-self responsibility shown

"My husband and I have agreed that if we start a new relationship that person can only have one overnight a week and two alone dates with us, but they are welcome to come hang out with the family as often as they want."-shrugging off personal responsibility

ANYTIME you shrug off personal responsibility, you are effectively setting it up for your partners to build resentments with one another over the appearance that one (or the other) is controlling the others relationship with you. UNCOOL.
We are adults and we have freedom of choice. IF YOU AGREE to some limitation-it is NOW YOUR preference and should be stated as such.
This is a written boundary between Maca and I.
OBVIOUSLY-not something we would tell someone was a boundary-that would negate the point of it altogether actually.

BUT-it was learned the hard way.

Telling partners that the other partner has set a limitation upon them sets a very controlling and negative tone to the dynamic.

BUT
it's also lying.

Your other partner can't FORCE you to do (or not do) anything.
At the point where you agree to something-it is now YOUR OWN CHOICE to do (or not do) it.
Therefore, telling someone else it is your partners limitation, IS LYING.
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  #393  
Old 10-20-2012, 10:13 PM
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Default Trust/lies/etc update

Still tough.
Not fighting, but definitely some very awkward moments.

I'm still hurting.

He's more chagrined than I've ever seen him.

I hope that means that he will follow through with the work to make permanent changes. Only time can tell.

He wrote an email-cc'd to me, to the other girl of his own accord.
I read it today. I've been busy this week and he agreed it was acceptable to put it off, because I really needed to focus on school stuff. This emotional shit is NOT helpful for me being able to focus on school.
But, the email touched me.
Also, it gives a glimpse of "his side of the story"; albeit a small one. So, I'm going to share it (altering names as appropriate).
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Last edited by LovingRadiance; 10-20-2012 at 10:23 PM. Reason: add paragraph
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  #394  
Old 10-20-2012, 10:21 PM
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Default Maca's letter to "her"

I changed the names for the board, the XXX is her boyfriend's name xxx'ed out. Otherwise, it is the original message he wrote.
The red, is where he quoted her email to me (and he had it in red in his email).
Quote:
I've had some time to think about WTF the issues are.

There are a lot of issues that have lead to the demise of our relationship. For starters, I should have never spoken badly about my wife, not to you or to anyone else. We all have our issues and I KNOW that she has spent YEARS dealing with mine. I had no right to say the things that I said to you and frankly its not something that you should do to someone that you love and is such an important part of your life.
I should have put my foot down the very first time that you spoke badly of her. I shouldn't have let you believe that it was ok for you or anyone else to talk shit about her to me or to anyone else. I fucked that up royally. By my actions and words I gave you a incorrect view of LR and the relationship that her and I have. That was unfair to you and it was fucked up and cruel to LR.

Reading and rereading your response to LRs email to you, I don't see any attempts to resolve the conflicts or even an interest on your part to discuss the issues. I've waited a long time for you to find the "right time to talk". But it hasn't happened and I don't think its ever going to. I told you before that I come as a "package deal". Which means that if you don't mesh with my family, all of them, especially my wife, then there is no deal. Its not like I'm saying that you two need to be best friends but there has to be respect and loyalty to my wife and the rest of my family. Any outside relationship that I have (or she has) has to promote and benefit my love for my wife and family. Just like the guy that said XXX was a asshole. You can not continue with a relationship with someone that speaks that way about your loves. And honestly, even if it was true, he had no right to say that to you or anyone that's in your social group. Opinions are fine but talking shit isn't.

" Seems like your trying to validate the way you treat Mark,which nothing you say can do that." WTF is that? You attack her? She doesn't deserve that. And then to top it off you add "which nothing you say can do that". Its like you were telling her that there is no way that she is good enough for me. If you KNEW the years of history and crap that we have been through, then you would KNOW that its ME that doesn't deserve HER. You said " I know how things are and I am always aware that their are two sides to a story. Not to mention I really haven't known your husband that long so I was in no position to make any judgments ". But you did make a judgment. And you did not try to get her side of the story. Even after I told you that we needed to all 3 sit down and talk, and that LR had agreed to a sit down talk, you didn't want to deal with her. That's not acceptable, not if you want to be a part of our lives.

I know that you wanted to be a great friend to me, I know that you wanted to be helpful, I know that you had reservations about wives of a potential lover. I know that I mislead you and filled your head with all the one sided "bad things" that are happening to me. I don't know how to reverse time, if I did, I would have done it already. I would have changed a lot of things.

We BOTH owe LR an apology. Me, for talking trash about her, for disrespecting her role in my life, for allowing you to do the same thing, for not standing up for her, for getting caught up in NRE and distancing myself AND for not promoting a relationship between you two, for lying to her and for making excuses for why it wasn't a "good time" to get this shit dealt with.

If you can not see that my words in this email are true, and if you still feel the way that you did in your response to her email,and if you don't see where you owe her an apology as well, then I can not continue any type of a relationship with you. I will not continue this way. I really don't know how else to put it. One of my "issues" is trying to sugar coat everything. I told you that we would always be friends. I didn't want to "HURT" you, after you had told me that you were having the worst two months of your life and that you were losing friends and relationships. But the fact of it is, I can't have a friendship with someone that only sees the bad in my wife and isn't willing to say "you know what? There has to be something I'm missing" and then puts in a effort to find out what it is that they are missing.

I apologize to you and your family for the way everything happened.
I apologize to LR for the way everything happened.

Maca
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  #395  
Old 10-21-2012, 12:01 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Default Poly groups and caustic people

Sigh. I met a lady at the Pride Conference. She invited me to rejoin the local poly group i had helped start it, but left when there was too much dissonance. It has grown.
I did rejoin and have rsvp'd to the next get together. But my nerves are on edge because the girl at the center of the drama I have been posting about is also a member of the group.

Sigh
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Last edited by LovingRadiance; 10-21-2012 at 12:04 AM.
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  #396  
Old 10-25-2012, 09:10 PM
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Default Death-Friendship-Exes/sexual interest-vulnerabilities

Yesterday I spent the day with my ex-boyfriend. Last guy I dated before I married Maca.
The first year or so was awkward for Maca, but we've retained a friendship since we broke up and I'm glad and proud of that.

My friend called me last week, he'd had a VERY traumatizing week.
His friend had flipped out violently and attacked several people in the house. It took two of them to restrain him. My friend had to put him in a choke hold before they were able to maneuver him to the ground where they could keep him restrained. After some time he had calmed and they released him-but it was a facade and he flipped out again. They again struggled to get him to the ground and kept him pinned down until the police arrived.
The police got him in handcuffs, at which point he was struggling to breathe and his lips turned blue. They removed the cuffs and got him laid back out on the floor. My friend is trained in CPR-he started CPR with the officer backing him up. They continued until an ambulance arrived 20 minutes later. But-it was to no avail. The guy died.

My friend is struggling with unanswerable questions regarding what he might have done differently and whether or not their struggle had something to do with the death. There's no real way to know at this point.

But, the fact that he called me, told me, he needed support of his friends and family.
So, I listened and then called back a couple days later to listen some more and yesterday spent 3 hours hanging out at his place talking and listening.

I feel good knowing that I can be there, that my friends know its ok to call me and share their vulnerabilities with me.



The other part of what struck me was this.
I love this guy-I already knew that.

But, it's been an ongoing discussion (for years now) between Maca and I. He can't understand WHAT it is that makes me decide to have sex with someone or not. It's hard to explain-because loving someone isn't it for me. Finding someone sexually attractive sure as hell isn't it either.

But-yesterday it dawned on me-that when someone I love also shares their vulnerabilities with me, that is when my interest in sex with them is peaked.
Mind you-I didn't and don't intend to have sex with my ex. Neither he or I is dumb enough to think that we're suddenly compatible now just because he's struggling with a high emotional experience.
However, I did realize that for me-that is one of the keys to getting to the part of me that will CONSIDER sex with someone. They have to be vulnerable to me.

It is easy for me to look at someone who is hot as hell and not go there-because unless they are making themselves vulnerable to me, showing me their insides, showing me their weaknesses (which so few people really do) my sex drive doesn't even get triggered.

I need:
mutual emotional bond and mutual sharing of vulnerabilities
before I can even start to consider wanting to share sex with another person.....
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  #397  
Old 10-25-2012, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
The guy died.
Shit, that's seriously fucked up!

The guy who died might have taken drugs which caused him to flip out and then have a heart-attack or something.
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  #398  
Old 10-25-2012, 11:10 PM
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They were doing an autopsy on Wednesday. Haven't heard the results.
We do know that he had other health issues and that he had just gotten an emotional shock that day. He received a call that his daughter (who lives out of state) had attempted suicide the day before. So he was already emotionally out of hand.
From what I gathered, he had been drinking when he showed up as well.

All in all-very sad, very emotionally upsetting situation for all involved. I didn't know the guy who died.
But-I'm glad that my ex feels safe calling me and confiding in me and I'm glad I can be there for him.
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  #399  
Old 10-26-2012, 12:25 AM
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OMG!

What an ordeal for your friend! Hopefully the autopsy will give news...

Galagirl
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  #400  
Old 10-26-2012, 01:19 AM
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Yes-emotional ordeal.
Thankfully-he's not bottling it. He's reaching out and that's not his norm. So I am happy about that.

He's a good guy. I can't imagine.
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