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  #61  
Old 10-23-2012, 12:31 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Dammit, why doesn't this forum have a "like" button??
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Gralson: my husband (works out of town).
Auto: my girlfriend (lives with her husband Zoffee).

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  #62  
Old 10-23-2012, 12:43 AM
nondy2 nondy2 is offline
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Agani, I so sorry. I should have never said that about maturity. It was flip and I am sorry.

I cannot compare though someone saying an abled person is healthy (in comparison to a disabled person). The word "healthy' for me means not just a personal opinion, but it key in understanding why people with disabilities have a 70% unemployment rate and many cam mot get in to a grocery store because of architecture.

Would you consider homophobia and racism akin to my STUPID comment of maturity? I wonder for example, this is a very openminded ,loving forum, but how many here have/or would date someone with a disability, or employ them, or don't use the word lame or retarded or spastic on a regular basis? How many live in towns that 100 % wheelchair accesinle (or have even thought about that)? How many teachers here use disability as part of their multicural curriculum.

I hope you guys don't kick me off! I am old (42) and not good with internet forums I am just trying to get my point across. Do you really think my marginalization of people who I call immature is a fair comparison to ableist??
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  #63  
Old 10-23-2012, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nondy2 View Post
Agani, I so sorry. I should have never said that about maturity. It was flip and I am sorry.

I cannot compare though someone saying an abled person is healthy (in comparison to a disabled person). The word "healthy' for me means not just a personal opinion, but it key in understanding why people with disabilities have a 70% unemployment rate and many cam mot get in to a grocery store because of architecture.

Would you consider homophobia and racism akin to my STUPID comment of maturity? I wonder for example, this is a very openminded ,loving forum, but how many here have/or would date someone with a disability, or employ them, or don't use the word lame or retarded or spastic on a regular basis? How many live in towns that 100 % wheelchair accesinle (or have even thought about that)? How many teachers here use disability as part of their multicural curriculum.

I hope you guys don't kick me off! I am old (42) and not good with internet forums I am just trying to get my point across. Do you really think my marginalization of people who I call immature is a fair comparison to ableist??


And there is the problem. When we start in on the US vs Them thing we get nowhere. I doubt you are going to find anyone really wanting to argue which is worse. However, saying that what you said, offensive to many on these forums, can't POSSIBLY be as bad as what someone said to you, is a no win situation.

For me, personally, it's a sore point when I see people with the attitude of "What is done TO me is always worse than what I do to people."

It irks me, because to me, it means not owning up to what your own issues are and instead minimizing it by saying it's not as bad as it could be. If that's how you want to measure your life, that others are worse, then go for it. Personally I want to measure my conduct and how I treat people by I how I WANT it to be, how it SHOULD be. Not how it is or how other people have treated me.

I'd be a right bitch if I went by how I have been treated in my life!
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  #64  
Old 10-23-2012, 01:27 AM
Xtin Xtin is offline
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I have an issue with nondy2's sweeping assumptions, esp. her standards for maturity. I heard the same flawed logic in our workplace, where a person was deprived of career advancement just because she's single with no kids, hence, "too immature to handle managerial responsibilities". This is a jurassic mindset that has no place in alternative lifestyles, and in modern societies in general.

I fully agree with SchrodingersCat's observations:

Quote:
Calling someone immature for living alone with no kids or pets amounts to judging her by the standards you've set for your own life. "She's not like me, so she's immature."

For that matter, there are plenty of 16 year old parents who live with the father of their baby and two dogs. I would hardly call that a criteria for maturity.

Last edited by Xtin; 10-23-2012 at 01:36 AM.
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  #65  
Old 10-23-2012, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nondy2 View Post
I wonder for example, this is a very openminded ,loving forum, but how many here have/or would date someone with a disability, or employ them, or don't use the word lame or retarded or spastic on a regular basis?
I believe there is quite a long discussion thread here on the topic of disabilities, and maybe another one on mental illness, with contributions from both people who are disabled and those who are in relationship with disabled folk. My lover receives Disability benefits for his illness, which must be managed carefully with medication although he never refers to himself as disabled. Do you honestly think you are the only one on this board, out of the thousands who belong, who has experience in dealing with a disability or a sensitivity about such things? Try doing a search for those threads. And you can also do a search for the word "retard" to see the discussions we've had with RedPepper about it, as she works with a population for whom that word is an issue and has brought it up for discussion here a few times. You almost seem to marginalize yourself with your stance, for having been discriminated against. Yes, that sucks and I am sorry you went through it, but you really aren't more special than anyone else here.

The thing is, we may all be unique and yet at the same time, we're not that unique. We can all start competing with each other for the "best worst story" about our lives - there won't be a winner.
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Last edited by nycindie; 10-23-2012 at 02:02 AM.
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  #66  
Old 10-23-2012, 02:21 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Quote:
Would you consider homophobia and racism akin to my STUPID comment of maturity?
I consider prejudicial discrimination of any kind to be unfortunate, be it for sexual preference, race, ableness, or choice of lifestyle. No reason for discrimination is inherently worse than another kind, it's all relative and subjective.

As a person with a disability, it's reasonable for you to take ableism personally. It's worse to you. But that doesn't make it worse in and of itself. Immigrants in Canada still face a lot of racism. That makes racism worse to them. And so on.

Also, I wouldn't say your comment was "stupid." I would call it ignorant at worst. Everyone is ignorant until they are educated, so I don't see ignorance as an inherent negative. The negativity comes when someone refuses to be educated and chooses to remain ignorant. You've promised to re-evaluate your opinion of maturity, so I'm confident that you can overcome that ignorance.

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I wonder for example, how many here have/or would date someone with a disability, or employ them, or don't use the word lame or retarded or spastic on a regular basis? How many live in towns that 100 % wheelchair accesinle (or have even thought about that)? How many teachers here use disability as part of their multicural curriculum.
My girlfriend has multiple learning disabilities. I frankly haven't met a lot of disabled people, so my opportunity to date them has been limited. But I can't imagine it being an issue for me.

I can hardly be held responsible for the lack of wheelchair access in my city. I absolutely have noticed many times that a place I'm visiting would be damn near impossible for a wheelchair to get in.

Both "lame" and "retarded" have valid English definitions that have nothing to do with disabilities.

My mom used to work at a school for people with severe mental retardation. So I've known all my life not to use "retard" as an insult. Even when I'm using it scientifically to mean "slowed down" or "hindered" I feel awkward and search for an alternative.

Lame also means "weak; inadequate; unsatisfactory; clumsy" or "lacking needful or desirable substance" e.g. a lame excuse.

Whether or not the disabled community endorses these alternative definitions, they are valid English definitions. Context is relevant.

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Do you really think my marginalization of people who I call immature is a fair comparison to ableist??
Again, "fair" is relative. Marginalization of anyone is unfair to the person being marginalized.

You seem to have an egocentric view of "better" and "worse," "right" and "wrong." What I mean by that is that you appear to think your own challenges, such as dealing with ableist discrimination, are inherently worse than the challenges dealt with by others.

There is no "absolute truth" when you're discussing whether one prejudice is worse than another.

What's also interesting to me is that when you were judging your metamour for being what you consider immature, you were consciously and deliberately looking down at her, that it made her worth less as a person. In this thread, no one has made an intentional judgement about your disability, yet you're defending yourself as though they had. Is it possible you're reacting to deliberately negative and judgemental comments you've received in the past, and superimposing those judgements on the naive comments made by people here?

I've found it's more effective to give people the benefit of the doubt. Rather than jump into defensive mode, assuming that someone meant to degrade you, would it be possible to politely educate them on which terms are preferred and why?

I'll fully admit, I was ignorant about ableism prior to this discussion. I just hadn't given it any thought. I will make an effort to be more conscious of ableist prejudices in the future.
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Gralson: my husband (works out of town).
Auto: my girlfriend (lives with her husband Zoffee).

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  #67  
Old 10-23-2012, 02:48 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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This conversation thread is taking several topic branches. For me it makes it hard to keep up.

So I'm just going to stick with the conversational line I was on. I will return to that one then -- it was post 45.

The original post was talking about these three main questions from Nondy:
  • There was the husband lying and putting you and the metamour in an awkward spot. (Have you received enough constructive feedback for ideas to cope with that one?)
  • There was the issue of you feeling safe with him going to sex parties. (Have you received enough constructive feedback for how to cope with that one?)
  • Then there was being jealous that the GF has freedom to enjoy him for "fun time" and you have all the mundane living chores and things. This was where post #45 was exploring a bit more deeply so now I'll try to give more feedback there.

Quote:
I just want to say many of these things I have asked concretely for. Some have been resolved through his own agency. Other's resolved by him moving into his own room. Other by me being less controlling.
So which ones are still left pending then? Where is the main problem at right now? I am confused. Why bring these bits up if they are resolved? Are they not resolved all the way?

Quote:
My husband doesn't not plan things for me. I would like him to actively plan things to do with both my son and I together or separately. Less him waiting for me to plan, suggest things and make sure they are carried out.
Is he not good at thinking up family dates or couple dates? Could you give him a list of your Top 5 fav things to do and surprise you from that? How could you get proactive about getting what you want? Is he willing to try?

My spouse is not a planner. I wish sometimes he'd surprise me, but he's not. So I just accept him how he is and I just lay out suggestions of what I like and think he might like to do too. Then I get to be with him doing things that sound good to both of us.

Quote:
He is the kind of person who says I have to work on Saturday (on Friday night). I would like to have full details of what is going on three-five days in advance if the event includes me taking over his work (cooking dinner and keeping our son at night.) Not assuming I'm willing to just cover childcare.
Alright. How can you get more proactive in this arena? Could you have a babysitter so you are BOTH off on the same night from kid duty? To either go out as a couple or as individuals?

Is the problem a personality thing (he just won't plan) or a technology thing (he sucks at paper calendar in kitchen but willing to Google calendar or Cozi or some other time management tool)? We switched to Google. I still like paper planners better for myself because paper limits me. Only so much will fit in a box. Endless digital space is a temptation to overschedule for me. But for the shared stuff I went to Google to meet him halfway. That he's pretty good at doing.

In my world I was feeling this pinch last term because I was doing the parenting evening detail a lot while he had work crazy going on. Fair enough -- sometimes one has to take it for the team. New fall term though -- we're back on my having two evenings to myself. Mon and Wed. That's it this term. He knows what to expect on a Mon or a Wed. Mom is OFF. He gets Tues and Thurs off from the parenting evening thing.

Fri -Sun is family time. We split it. If he wants to do some trades for Mon/Wed he's gotta negotiate and I do NOT have to say yes to a trade that week. He agreed to this terms' patter at the start of the term. Spring term we do another pattern after reassessing needs of the family.

I don't know if that would work for you. Having "known" days.

Quote:
He doesn't pick up after himself. I would like more cleaning when he cooks so every dish isn't in the sink and papers all over the counter which he leaves when he is done.
Does he cook only for himself? Is he cooking for everyone? If for everyone perhaps this is one where you accept the price of admission there if you enjoy his cooking and having a break from cooking -- he cooks, you clean?

Where could the happy medium lie there? Take turns cooking but the cook is also the cleaner of what they did?

I do what I can on dishes and then I ignore. Because I cannot keep on 24/7 all day and I have to rest too. He doesn't like it, he can clean it or wait for me to get to it in the morning. I also hire help once a week. The housework thing is a work in progress around here.

Quote:
He forgets events (and does not tell me with enough notice what his work is). Somehow, however he plans his dates with GF a week in advance. He is extremely respectful of her schedule. This makes in LIVID. I would like more of being attended to his/mine/own calendar.
This is the time management problem again. That seems like a sore spot.

Quote:
I work at home so I can do most the housework, but it would be great to have someone to say "O that door in stuck, let me fix it!" Or o the lightbulb is out, let me fix it.
I'm not sure if that is his participating in the upkeep of the home you share, or an act of service to show his love for you or a bit of both? Which is it? Does he understand what it means to you if it is in part an "act of service" thing that is one of your love languages?


You say she's nice enough and all and you don't want them to break up. I think you want him to balance the NRE and ORE thing though because you are feeling put upon with the childcare/short notice assumptions and you are feeling neglected at home.

When you tell him something like
"I feel neglected at home. I don't want you to break up with your GF, but I do want a better balance in time management so your obligations at home are being met -- the the household, to the child in co-parenting duties, and to me as your wife/lover. Here's my suggestions for how to address this. What are yours? Let's find the happy medium so we both are content."
...what does he say/do? Does he follow through?

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 10-23-2012 at 03:09 AM.
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  #68  
Old 10-23-2012, 03:38 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Marginalization and discrimination are a problem regardless of how prevalent the group that is being marginalized and discriminated against.

There may be more people who are disabled complaining about being marginalized and discriminated against (rightfully so)- but that doesn't mean that it isn't JUST AS WRONG to marginalize and discriminate against people who are single.

My friend is dead, 4 months this last Saturday-because she gave up the fight for equality.
She was disabled, black, a woman and lgbt. She had minority written all over her. She was also an EXTREMELY talented young woman who had maturity written all over her single, 21 year old face. She accomplished things in our community most people just talk about-
INCLUDING learning to watch how she spoke about everyone.
Including confining herself to a wheelchair so she could learn how to be more supportive and understanding of those confined to a wheelchair.
Including learning ASL so she could communicate with the deaf and learn how to be more supportive and understanding of them.
Including fighting actively for the rights of the disabled, the rights of LGBT, the rights of ethnic minorities, the rights of women, the rights of single people, the rights of every single person she encountered.

So-yes-since her death most especially, a suicide that rocked our whole city, I have made it my life goal to find where and how people are being marginalized-ANY people-and not participate in the activity.

My closest friend at school right now, buried his severely autistic brother last semester. I was there for the funeral.

I schooled my baby sister who has severe learning disabilities. We were told she would never mature past a 5th grade level emotionally or intellectually. She graduated with her high school diploma last May in no small part due to the one on one attention I gave her for school.

My stepfather has Parkinson's and has major struggles with speaking, anything that requires fine motor skills.

My youngest child is female and Chinese, my oldest is female and Puerto Rican-both are minorities by gender and by race.

There is no need to get huffy over "who is worse" or "who is better". If it's hurtful to someone-learn to change it.

You have every right to not be labeled unhealthy for a disability.
My sister has every right to not be labeled immature for her marital or legal parental status.

Ageism is an issue as well. I'm 37 year old and in my sophmore year of college. My classmates are the same age as my daughter. It can be very frustrating the assumptions that are made by the school, other students and instructors about me because of my age.

And what about SAHM's? It's been less than a month since I was told my opinion was uneducated because I was a SAHM. Um... based upon WHAT?!?!?! There is all sorts of discrimination against SAH parents and even more against SAHD's!

The bottom line is-discrimination and marginalization are prevalent and if you are going to point it out to others-you need to be aware of it in yourself.
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  #69  
Old 10-23-2012, 03:42 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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While I am at it:

I have herpes.

You are right-it's not deadly.

But-it is another one of those things that people are completely uneducated about.

While I won't say that it is more dangerous than AIDS, I have friends who have died of AIDS as well-
I will say,
that if we're going to look at safer sex-we should look at safer sex-not just 'how to avoid getting one particular STI'.

I find it aggravating to be arguing over sperm vs semen regarding transmission of STI's when the bottom line is that for the purposes of the conversation-the issue is SAFER SEX PRACTICES.


I personally am not into sex parties, but just because someone is-does not mean that they can't or don't practice safer sex.
JUST LIKE being poly doesn't mean you are at higher risk for STI's-because it doesn't mean you don't practice safer sex!
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  #70  
Old 10-23-2012, 01:02 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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It is obvious to me that the OP has some issues with what i said, that no matter what i say, or how i explain it, i am going to get in deeper and deeper trouble. I have no wish to be an Evil Marginalizing Bastard; i also refuse to walk on eggshells when all i was trying to do is be sincere.

I do have one last story that this reminded me of (by the way op, i'm 42 too and i have medical issues, and so fucking WHAT if your husband's girlfriend IS immature??? She's HIS girlfriend, not yours. Maybe he likes her because she's not like you.):

I was working the door at an open mic in the early 90's. In walks a guy with a guitar and a service dog. I was across the room setting something up, and noticed the guy just sort of fidgeting around in the doorway, probably because the dog was trying to figure out what to do next. Obviously, the man would want to check in, perhaps sit down, get on the signup sheet, perhaps use the rest room... I went over and said "can i help you?" like i would have done with ANYONE. Dude starts flipping out, "What? HELP me? Do i look like i need HELP?". And i'm all, "uh no sir... No you don't." and i left that asshole to his own devices and let someone else deal with him. Which is what i plan to do in this thread, right after i finish this post.

A couple years later i met the guy with the seeing-eye dog (it's probably not ok to say "seeing-eye dog". The marginalization police must have come up with some new PC jargon for that, and for "blind" too) through a mutual friend. Turns out Blind Guy was just as much of an asshole once you'd got to hang out with him for a while as he was in that first impression, and not only that, he was mean to his dog.

I realize not ALL blind people are that way. I even know some who aren't. And no, this does not make me an expert on blind people or anything. I am just telling it like it is.

The end.

Last edited by BoringGuy; 10-23-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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