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  #381  
Old 10-10-2012, 10:08 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Have you done enough time served yet?
My honest answer is, I don't know. What is "time served" for having an affair? Who makes that decision?
It's not that I haven't thought about it, GG and I have discussed it. But, we both get stuck with being unsure it's our place to decide when that time is served.

I know when the shoe has been on the other foot, I have never drug it out for more than a few months. Either a change has occurred, in which case trust is rebuilt, or it doesn't occur, in which case I move on with life-without depending on the other person to be reliable and/or trustworthy.

Where I struggle is, just because I do that in a *short* span of time, does that mean it SHOULD BE DONE in a short span of time?


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When does "The needs of the many" in the polyship outweigh "the needs of the one" take effect?
Optimally, from day one. This has been an ongoing theme of struggle in our whole relationship, not only during poly. We struggled while my stepson was in the home, because he has psychological and emotional issues that resulted in him being abusive (physically and emotionally) to the rest of us. There was this huge attitude that because his circumstances weren't of his own making, then his needs came first.
But, this didn't work.
Eventually, I did put my foot down and the result is that he can't live with us, because he can't follow the rules.

I think that there is no chance of a healthy family if we don't make the switch to the needs of the whole or the needs of the family over the needs of one individual within the family. But, I'm not sure exactly how to retrain all of us in that new line of thinking (and acting).
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  #382  
Old 10-10-2012, 10:15 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Default Where I could use help/support

Something I could use help/support with is:
  • figuring out some concrete actions for assessing ones personal insecurities (and working towards resolving them).
  • some concrete actions that correlate with planning for the whole groups needs versus one individuals needs
  • concrete actions/statements to use when identifying that someone is crossing a boundary of expecting others to prioritize them over the whole
  • concrete consequences for not sticking to a self-improvement plan, including *reasonable* timeframes for reassessing progress and for no longer using specific insecurities as excuse for limitations on other people's activities

I realize that we have to figure out what works for us. But, some examples might help me with being able to explain the concepts better and help me be more able to assess what is reasonable and rational and productive versus what is circular and un-beneficial thinking...
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  #383  
Old 10-11-2012, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
What is "time served" for having an affair? Who makes that decision?
It's not that I haven't thought about it, GG and I have discussed it. But, we both get stuck with being unsure it's our place to decide when that time is served.
In my opinion, forgiveness is forgiveness. There is no time frame on that. When someone forgives, they have to be willing to move on as if the transgression or "crime" never happened. Forgiving someone is basically total acceptance of their confession and apology, and wipes the slate clean for a new beginning. That is when trust is rebuilt, which can take time, because there is the repairing of hurt feelings and putting suspicions to rest. But forgiveness is instantaneous and at some point, adults need to stop indulging in feeling hurt. It is something we can either dwell on or leave behind -- and when you forgive someone you are essentially saying, "Let's put it behind us and move forward from now on." When a bank or loan company forgives a debt, it is as if the money was never owed. They don't then decide a few years down the road that you still need to pay because they're upset the borrower got away with it, or made them look foolish.

If Maca has said he's forgiven you but is still making you pay, then he actually hasn't forgiven you. He is just holding onto being upset, holding onto feeling betrayed, holding onto anger, for whatever satisfaction he gets out of that. Many people just will not forgive, if they feel especially victimized or wronged. It also gives someone a false sense of superiority to be able to hold that over the transgressor's head, especially if the "crime" did something that pricked the "victim's" insecurities and feelings of inferiority.
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Last edited by nycindie; 10-11-2012 at 01:18 AM.
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  #384  
Old 10-11-2012, 03:19 AM
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Nyc said exactly what I was thinking. If someone has forgiven you, they genuinely make the effort to move on, even if it doesn't happen all at once. If your life partner *hasn't* forgiven you for something, despite the passage of years and your sincere efforts to make amends, that's a really serious problem. On the other hand, maybe it's GG that he hasn't forgiven? But, that's not exactly better... it's like they say about a house divided against itself. :/
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  #385  
Old 10-11-2012, 04:32 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
In my opinion, forgiveness is forgiveness. There is no time frame on that. When someone forgives, they have to be willing to move on as if the transgression or "crime" never happened. Forgiving someone is basically total acceptance of their confession and apology, and wipes the slate clean for a new beginning. That is when trust is rebuilt, which can take time, because there is the repairing of hurt feelings and putting suspicions to rest. But forgiveness is instantaneous and at some point, adults need to stop indulging in feeling hurt. It is something we can either dwell on or leave behind -- and when you forgive someone you are essentially saying, "Let's put it behind us and move forward from now on." When a bank or loan company forgives a debt, it is as if the money was never owed. They don't then decide a few years down the road that you still need to pay because they're upset the borrower got away with it, or made them look foolish.

If Maca has said he's forgiven you but is still making you pay, then he actually hasn't forgiven you. He is just holding onto being upset, holding onto feeling betrayed, holding onto anger, for whatever satisfaction he gets out of that. Many people just will not forgive, if they feel especially victimized or wronged. It also gives someone a false sense of superiority to be able to hold that over the transgressor's head, especially if the "crime" did something that pricked the "victim's" insecurities and feelings of inferiority.
This makes a LOT of sense to me. I read in a post here a little while ago that someone felt they could "Forgive, but never forget, and the doubt would ALWAYS still be present." and that didn't sit well with me. If there is NO chance at "redemption", if you are always going to be viewed as the former "you" - then what is the point of even trying? I'm not saying "forget", I'm not saying forgive the same transgression over-and-over-and-over again. But if someone honestly just screwed up and made amends? We do that. We are human. We learn from our mistakes and move on - and if we are healthy adult human people then we DON'T repeat the same mistakes over again.

(DISCLOSURE: MrS and Dude have both forgiven me unconditionally for the mistakes I made when Dude entered my life - or we couldn't be where we are today. I have not, yet, forgiven myself for being such an asshat. I am amazed, and appalled, that I could have let myself deceive myself so thoroughly...I thought I knew myself better than that! - I am still unravelling the web of half-truths that I sold myself and wondering how I could have been such an idiot - I NEVER want to put myself in such a position again! Ugh!)


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Dude: hetero poly male, live-in boyfriend (together 3+ yrs) and MrS's best friend
Lotus: poly bi female, "it's complicated" relationships with Dude/JaneQ/MrS
TT: poly bi male, married to Lotus, FB with JaneQ
VV and MsJ: bi-women with male primaries, LTR LDR FWBs to JaneQ


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  #386  
Old 10-11-2012, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JaneQSmythe View Post
This makes a LOT of sense to me. I read in a post here a little while ago that someone felt they could "Forgive, but never forget, and the doubt would ALWAYS still be present." and that didn't sit well with me. If there is NO chance at "redemption", if you are always going to be viewed as the former "you" - then what is the point of even trying? I'm not saying "forget", I'm not saying forgive the same transgression over-and-over-and-over again. But if someone honestly just screwed up and made amends? We do that. We are human. We learn from our mistakes and move on - and if we are healthy adult human people then we DON'T repeat the same mistakes over again.
I see this a bit different. I am one of the persons who forgive but hardly forget. This doesn't mean that there is no redemption, but it does mean, that even if I say I will forgive what was done to me, I won't forget that this incident happened. It doesn't mean that I bear a grudge but it does mean that it still hurts and that I will need time to overcome that. I can recognize that someone has made amends and that he/she is working on what ever wrong he/she has done to me, but I can't just turn off my feelings of being hurt. When I say 'I forgive you' I mean, I acknowledge your remorse and that you are truly sorry for what you have done. I myself am willing to work on the hurt and the aftermaths, but ultimately it's just time that helps me forget about this.

As soon as I forgive, I won't bring this topic up again in a hurtful or accusatory way. But there have been times I need to talk about it again to work on my problems with the after-effects it had on me. I would never say 'always still present', maybe to a certain extend in the back of my mind, but that's the same for every important thing that ever happened to me (good or bad), but forgiveness for me is just the first step of the process and the process itself is closed years later when the hurt finally leaves me. The longest I have worked on something similar was nearly 6 years. We never quarrelled about it after I said that I forgive, but just after that period of time I don't feel hurt any more when I think back.
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  #387  
Old 10-11-2012, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by JaneQSmythe View Post
I read in a post here a little while ago that someone felt they could "Forgive, but never forget, and the doubt would ALWAYS still be present." and that didn't sit well with me. If there is NO chance at "redemption", if you are always going to be viewed as the former "you" - then what is the point of even trying?
Probably my post. I know for me, the doubt comes screaming back when behaviors start to repeat themselves. I have to fight the urge to wallow in the doubt and NOT imagine the "worst case" scenario. Part of the problem is that it hits on a deep emotional level. For me, when I find out that my husband forgets to tell me something, my gut takes me back to when he was lying and betraying me on purpose. It could be something as simple as he didn't tell me he was taking $300 out of the checking account and why (he never takes more than $60). Unfortunately, now that things are better between us, the little things that I ignored or blew off before, trigger the hurt caused by the big major thing. Maybe because I missed the warning signs the first time around and now I'm more aware, IDK. I do recover and gain perspective quicker, but that's because I recognize it for what it is and work to not let it overwhelm me.

Yes I will ALWAYS have doubts, but I choose to address that doubt and get clarification first. Sometimes old habits are returning and need to be brought to the forefront, other times it's nothing like what I imagined through my viel of insecurities. We have to work to change their responses to triggers. Things that trigger the hurt/memory can't be controlled, the actions we take in response to that gut reaction can, so instead of wallowing in self pity for days, thing can be cleared up and back to normal within hours or minutes.
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  #388  
Old 10-12-2012, 12:50 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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My honest answer is, I don't know. What is "time served" for having an affair? Who makes that decision?
All of you do. Apology is made. If forgiveness is granted? Forgiveness is granted. It would be on the trespassers to ask if they would be allowed to make amends. It would be on the person who is trespassed upon to decide what it would take to make the amends. If the trespassers feel this is reasonable and doable, they do it. When it is done, the trespassed upon agrees that amends have been made and let's the thing GO. Everyone gets to move it forward now.

In a simpler problem:

If I borrow your sewing machine and I break it while using it? I have to apologize to you and ask your forgiveness.

You forgive me.

I ask you if I can make it up to you so we can return to right relationship. -- should I get it repaired? Buy a whole new one? Or if you aren't into sewing any more, would you like the cash it would take to buy a new one? What is best?

You think about it and tell me what it is that it takes. You tell me you want a Ferrari, I will not agree and we will not continue the relationship! I do not agree to make amends like that! That is taking advantage of me and holding me over a barrel!

You think about and tell me you are good with a VISA gift card with $150 on it and the apology. I give you the Visa. You agree to let bygones be bygones. We are back in right relationship.

But we are not if you are going to keep harping on me breaking your sewing machine each month at the quilting bee!

So. Have you and GG made ammends? Done enough time served for this Apology Interaction? Has Maca completed his end of the transaction and reached the let bygones be bygones place? Done enough of HIS time served? Or is he not doing the "letting it go? " Does he want a Ferrari?

Galagirl
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  #389  
Old 10-12-2012, 01:32 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Just brainstorm ideas. Take what may help.

GL!
Galagirl
-----------------

figuring out some concrete actions for assessing ones personal insecurities (and working towards resolving them).

http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Le...-Cherokee.html

http://www.lowselfhelpsystems.org/sy...-worksheet.asp

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/im...ed_10-6-10.pdf (esp page 5 and 6)

some concrete actions that correlate with planning for the whole groups needs versus one individuals needs

Know your invidual traits. Be willing, even if you don't get WHY they want it that way, to just give it that way because you love them.
  • I like my information VISUAL. DH likes his info AUDIO. (I make a list and read it out loud to him. He tries to write me lists or draws me stick people.)
  • I and spirited and systematic. DH is considerate. (I want him to step it up. He wants me to chill out. We negotiate to meet the happy medium.)
  • I am Mr Burns/Lisa Simpson depending on my mood when I take it. He is Sideshow Bob. (Simpson Myers Briggs) We try to understand that about each other and approach accordingly.
  • Conflict -- I am collaborative/compromising. He is accomodate/compromising. We try to aim for the common compromising then.
  • I am assertive. I used to be aggressive. He is baby asssertive -- he used to be serious passive. I had to lower my volume, try harder to LISTEN. He had to raise his volume, try harder to speak UP. I lead the pack and captain. He first mates. Sometimes tho, the captain decides HE must captain so he gives those skills a workout too.
  • I am a hot head and emotionally flood. I work on my stress/anxiety issues. I am much better. He helps me by trying to talk to me like a top when I'm all flooded and not take it personally.
  • He's a long fuse/bottle it all in type. He works on quitting smoking and stress coping that way. I encourage him to blow shit up on video games, drum, play guitar -- steam valve via ACTIVE things. I will not mind reader, but I try to ask him all his buckets when he goes "I don't know" to help him break it down to smaller bites so he can better articulate it to me.

    With my kid, my elder dad, myself -- concious discipline tips have worked. Easy to Love Difficult to Discipline works on my kid as well as my alzheimer parent!

There's oodles more... but it boils down to knowing oneself and knowing one's partner(s). Do you know yourselves?

Meyers-Brigs. What simpson are you?

Communication Style: Passive? Aggressive? Assertive?


Quiz: Passive? Aggressive? Assertive?

Communications Style: Spirited? Direct? Considerate? Assertive?


One Possible Conflict Resolution Method

Quiz Conflict Resolution Style: Competitive, Collaborative, Compromising, Accommodating, Avoiding


Stress Management

Stress Personality Quiz

Got enough feelings words to express self with?

Done a need inventory?


Do you know what you value? What your partners do?

concrete actions/statements to use when identifying that someone is crossing a boundary of expecting others to prioritize them over the whole

Learn how to receive both critique and criticism with grace.
Learn how to give critique (constructive feedback) rather than criticism (destructive feedback)

"I do not feel I'm being taken into consideration here. I feel you expect me to prioritize your thing at the expense of the family unit. Is that your expectation? Please clarify your expectation."

"Thank you for taking me into consideration. I see you want that ____. How can we negotiate so my need for ____ and your want of _____ can play nice together so it's good for all? What would you suggest? I suggest...."

"No, thank. I am not willing to do that."
"Yes, I am willing to do that."

"Please repeat that back to me. I'd like to verify you got what I meant."
"Please clarify. I am confused. Did you mean it like _____?"

"No. This is not in keeping with our agreement. Please do not do that. Do this instead. Thank you"
"Yes. This is in keeping with our agreement. Keep doing that. Thank you."

concrete consequences for not sticking to a self-improvement plan, including *reasonable* timeframes for reassessing progress and for no longer using specific insecurities as excuse for limitations on other people's activities


1 year. Set goals. Monthly progress check ins and life wheels. I find when talking about subjective emotion, a life wheel helps give it an objective handle. Last year's life wheel for my famiy life was a 3. This year it was a 6. I could have gone "Guh! It sucks! A "D" is 60%" but comparing to the year before where my dad had a huge health crisis? and it was a BAD "F" of 30%? Well, then I felt better about the big improvement since last year. A "D" was actually a HUGE change! 30 points up!

http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newHTE_93.htm

Use SMART goals setting:
http://topachievement.com/smart.html
http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newHTE_87.htm

We want to see progress, not perfection.

Groups decides the goals of the polyship.

Group breaks it down to put it on their plates. Individuals make their action list/goals based on what they need to work on as individuals and the puzzle piece they will own in service to the greater polyship.

1 year. X number of goals. 70% of them met = C average. We can call that celebration. Celebrate. Make next year's map.

F? Who isn't doing their thing? Are they getting enough support, encouragement, accountability? If so? STILL not doing the thing they signed up to do? You are fired as a crew member of this polyship. This is the reason I have "3 strikes" in my own gamebook. Otherwise something will drag on forever if the person is not willing to do the work and frankly? Life's too short. I'm willing to keep on if I see effort. I don't have to see SUCCESS. I want to see EFFORT MADE. But no effort or lick and a promise blowing it off? Strike. Collect enough strikes? Out.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 10-12-2012 at 01:50 AM.
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  #390  
Old 10-15-2012, 06:33 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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I am working thru ur advice Gala.
In the meantime the 25 yo wrote a scathing reply. Managed to offend Maca and GG. I only read 4 lines. I bailed and deleted. She is out. Done. Finalized. Out of options.
Now, to the business of rebuilding trust.
I feel emotionally flooded, vulnerable and insecure.
Insecure in terms of feelinf safe emotionally in the relationship. His lies to me, to others about me, have been destructive beyond just breaking my trust.
I'm hurt and angry and resentful.

He's apologetic and desperate for a 'quick fix' which doesnt exist.
The real fire is burning and its time to walk thru the coals.
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