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  #361  
Old 10-09-2012, 02:39 AM
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Nyc-that would be great, if she didn't hallen to be married with a live-in bf and child AND expect that THEIR boundaries. E respected and honored (like Maca can't go there when bf is home because bf doesn't like it).

It's not a matter of more or less boundaries, she has a whole series too. It's a matter of wanting things her way ONLY. Which-would be fine IF she wasn't also complaining that she wAnts to go on OUR family activities.

If he wants a fuckbuddy-he can do that, just can't bring them to our house or around me and the kids.
SHE wants the privilege of being at our family gatherings and activities as his gf-without the responsibility of respecting the rest of us (not just me).
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:48 AM
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As for the boundaries themselves, as well the board knows, they are primarily all for Maca's benefit. He is severely insecure about my relationship with GG. He isn't willing to allow us more freedom. Those boundaries allow him to feel safer in our dynamic.
There could be less if he really actively pursued resolving his insecurities.

But-the basic necessity to deal with me and be companionable with me in order to be invited to participate in family functions will never ever change.

Anyone who wants to be around us as a group will be expected to treat EACH of us appropriately and if they flat refuse to even go to coffee with us-they won't be invited. That is just stupid.

Its also pertinent I suppose, to note, that no potential would be subjected to going over that whole list. Thats OUR list. It details agreed upon definitions for us, because we didnt define relationships the same. So we wrote down an agrred upon definition of what types of things fit under what term.

Likewise, there is no need to tell someone they can't shower in the purple bathroom together. Just take them to the other shower. Same with towels. Those towels are kept in my dresser. Why would anyone be digging in my dresser?!? They are written for our benefit, our understanding of what we need.
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  #363  
Old 10-09-2012, 02:57 AM
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Default How do boundaries work?

First, we have a list of definitions on our boundary agreement. Those definitions clarify for us what it is that we've agreed are the behaviors that go with certain types of relationships. Because we didn't have the same understandings when we first met. I was much more liberal and that meant I was tromping on his toes.

So, for example, our definition for friend says,

they've met your SO
see 2-3 times a week
coffee/lunch social times ok but no romantic dates
invite to family time ok w/so permission
so always welcome to join
remain coupled with so in group setting
no kissing, caressing, cuddling, fondling, making out, sex, nudity, nude photos, personalized sex talk, cybersex.

Now, I have friends from school. Upon meeting them, I don't tell them "I'm sorry we can't be friends until you meet my SO".
But, I do make sure that the first time I invite them to hang out-it's with his permission AND when he's present. That covers him meeting them.

I would do that EVEN IF WE WEREN'T POLY-that is a basic component of how we show our respect for each other period.

Likewise-I don't tell them "we can't go on romantic dates". I don't need to. I just need to know that for myself. If they invite me to coffee, lunch, etc it's a go. If they suggest dinner, I simply respond with "evenings are for our family, is it something I can bring them along?" and go from there.
This has NEVER been complicated or difficult. In fact, it's been appreciated and complimented.

I don't tell them "I need to be sure you are ok with my partner coming along at any time" either.
I simply make it clear in my words and actions and behaviors that my partner is a meaningful FULL part of my life. I invite them to participate in activities that include my partner, I make my RSVP's including my partner. It's really a no brainer-because I've never encountered a soul who expected otherwise. EVEN the people who don't operate that way in their own lives-figure out within 10 minutes around me that I do everything with my family and they understand that part of who I am.

Additionally, the "remaining coupled" isn't something that needs discussed or what behaviors aren't acceptable unless someone tries to do them. If a friend tried to kiss me-I would gently but firmly tell them that makes me uncomfortable and I don't appreciate it. End of story.
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  #364  
Old 10-09-2012, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Nyc-that would be great, if she didn't hallen to be married with a live-in bf and child AND expect that THEIR boundaries. E respected and honored (like Maca can't go there when bf is home because bf doesn't like it).

It's not a matter of more or less boundaries, she has a whole series too. It's a matter of wanting things her way ONLY. Which-would be fine IF she wasn't also complaining that she wAnts to go on OUR family activities.
Oh shit, I thought she was single, footloose, and fancy-free. But still, why does she choose to whine, complain, and generally avoid the boundaries he has with you when, if it's too complicated for her, she can just stop seeing him? I guess she's just a spoiled brat. <sigh> It's too bad that Maca has this thing about keeping score with you and always feeling like he's not getting enough if he doesn't have an additional relationship like you do. It severely clouds his judgment.

Oh, and I wasn't criticizing your boundaries (I don't think anyone was), so there is no need to explain or defend them. It's just that I can see how it would make life complicated to a certain degree and we all have our tolerance levels. But she's stomping her foot about it like a baby, which is so unproductive.
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/

Last edited by nycindie; 10-09-2012 at 03:06 AM.
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  #365  
Old 10-09-2012, 03:22 AM
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Default How do boundaries work part two-a potential new partner..

SO,
This weekend, I met a lady, who I may at some point be interested in having more of a personal relationship with. Who knows.

I didn't tell HER that. That would be AWKWARD! We just met.

I DID tell Maca that. That is how the boundary comes into play with "ok'd by SO".

I won't be telling her that.

I didn't tell her there is a limit to 1-2 visits a week with her either.
I KNOW THAT-so I won't schedule more than that. She DID ask me when I was in town (I live out of town) and I told her that M,W,F I am in town. I didn't tell her "alone time visits" can only be 1 time a week.
She doesn't need such details! I know that-so I will respect that agreement with my partner. Same with romantic dates being ok-she doesn't need to know that. If we get to that point, and one or the other of us asks for a date that is romantic in nature, it's ok so I can go.

I won't tell her "I have to ask my SO if it's ok before inviting you out to a family gathering". That would already have been DONE if I were inviting her!

I won't be telling her my SO is always welcome to join me-I live my life that way. i will let her know "WE are going to be in town-are you avail for coffee or a walk?" If she invites me I would say, "I'd love to, Maca and I are going to be in town that day we'd love to come!"

I don't need to tell her what behaviors aren't allowed sexually. I won't try to do them. If she does, I would simply stop her gently and tell her, "I find you very attractive, but this is too fast for me."


So, no I don't think these boundaries are complicated for another person. Because most of it-they need not go over with us.

The only key pieces that need to be addressed are as follows:

1. I'm part of a loving, committed, full time family that is pretty complicated. I'm a student, I homeschool two kids and babysit my grandson. My husband and my boyfriend work full time and we try to devote weekends to the family.

(THAT is something I say so many times a day I can't begin to imagine it being awkward to bring up-it's a natural part of describing ME)

2. Unfortunately, that makes my schedule CRAZY hectic and limits my social availability. (again, this is such a frequent statement in my day-that it's not awkward)

IF we're already at the stage of aiming to be sexually active:

3. I have herpes. I don't use protection with my husband or my boyfriend. We've agreed that we won't have sex with outside lovers before STI tests are done all around. We also commit to taking them every 6 months.
**THIS IS NON-NEGOTIABLE and it's a primary point of contention with her**

4. Because of family responsibilities, overnights aren't a realistic option for me right now.


That's it. The rest is a matter of me and him choosing to behave in the way we've defined for our relationship. As it's OUR behavior-it's not necessary to define it for someone else.
IF they asked questions about it-then I would hope we would answer honestly.

Where things have gone awry with her-is that he laid everything out as if every issue that may arise was based upon MY "rules" for him. When in fact these are the limits WE want for OURSELVES. He did it because he's so desperate to have SOMEONE-that he will say or do whatever he thinks they want to hear in order to impress them. It's happened with EVERY SINGLE WOMAN he's been interested in.

The result is that HE is disrespecting himself and me. He could simplify the process by internalizing the expectations HE HAS for our relationship and then simply living them and claiming them.

Example:
"Can you spend the night?" being answered with "LR wouldn't agree to that" complicates his life. He could answer truthfully with, "my family is my top priority, and those responsibilities make that impossible." That would answer the question point blank. I've done it-and it works.

She tries to kiss him the first time they meet-"I'm sorry, I find you very attractive, but I'm not comfortable with kissing yet."

Being upfront and openly honest and proactive in keeping his family involved when he's dating.
It's not hard, I've done it since I was 16. I never went on a "first date" one on one. I ALWAYS invited them to a family or group function that was "kid friendly" and included my daughter.
BECAUSE-then I immediately weeded out all of the people who weren't up to sharing me with my ALREADY EXISTING responsibility (daughter). If they made it through hanging out with the group, and they were friendly with her, they might make it to a one on one date eventually.

Dating one on one and privately from the get go creates complications, because it doesn't weed out the people who are looking for the one on one or single life experiences.
By keeping my dating online with my reality, I simplify the process of finding people who ACTUALLY fit with my REAL life. People who are actually able to understand the limitations that come with my current responsibilities. People who aren't expecting what I can't offer.

IF on the other hand I choose to schedule one night a week to go date someone without inclusivity-I limit myself significantly in regards to how involved in my real life they can be.

It's all about choices.

Maca's issue is that he won't make the choice. He wants someone and he wants them RIGHT NOW. So he grabs at anything that so much as looks at him twice. THEN he "puts his best foot forward" as he says, which is actually, putting his "single" foot forward, trying to woo them with expensive flowers, romance and one on one attention.
That's great, but he isn't willing to give up what he has at home-and he can't keep this AND be gone more than one night a week. SOOOOOOOOOOOO-when they get "hooked" and want more-he's screwed, because he can't give it.
If he chose to put his "married and willing to share" foot forward, they could see him every damn day of the week-WITH THE REST OF US TOGETHER and still have that one night all to themselves.
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  #366  
Old 10-09-2012, 03:27 AM
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Actually Nyc-I wasn't being defensive.

I'm taking the thoughts and processing them fully-because I really think if I do, it will help me be more clear cut in my real life and maybe help me to streamline the things I can.


Yes-she's spoiled and that part I think has a lot to do with age.

Ironically-I was like that too-at the same age. She and I have a lot in common if you compare her to when I was her same age.

That's the sad part-is that I could see it working out for them-if they both backed off and gave her a little time to learn about the real world. Experience is key. She grew up in a very very very small community-and frankly-this isn't a large one! LOL! So her worldly experience is limited. Her boyfriend is her first love. I mean really, she's young. She'll learn a lot over time.

Maca needs to get a grip on his competitiveness. It's screwing him over more than anyone else. I see it-but how do you help? Heck if I KNOW!

I write on here, vent my frustration, read everyone's thoughts, re-think my thinking and write it again. In the process I've learned SO SO SO SO much about myself, about communication, about life, about relationships.
*head shake* I've just learned so much. But, he seems to be stuck on that one thing. So focused on his fear of being alone that he can't even see that he's NOT.
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:27 AM
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Oh okay. I think I understand a little better.

You're saying you wouldn't go through the whole boundary list with Boundary-Stomping New Girl. But you want to get together to discuss certain "boundaries, time constraints, expectations." So what would be put on the table then?
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  #368  
Old 10-09-2012, 04:45 AM
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With her in particular
  • because of the history (they broke boundaries and she got all bent out of shape over my not being enough of a "hostess" while she was here);
  • She claims to want to spend time with the whole family

I said that I needed her to understand that
A) as "just friends" (which is what they supposedly are) kissing and sex are off limits.
[they were making out in our kitchen in front of our guests and children]

B)I am not a hostess. I'm not going to be but it's not a personal slight against HER-I don't do those things for ANYONE.

C)if she wants to participate in our family she can't continue talking smack about me [that is addressed in this thread:http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28151]

Really-that's it.

HE may have other things HE wants to address with her. All I wanted was for her to understand that talking smack about me isn't going to be acceptable if she wants our families to socialize together, I'm not going to cater to her personally while she's in my home, her definition of friends [which she stated to me specifically] is fine for OTHER friends of hers, but kissing and making out isn't something we do with friends.

She has no idea how simple it could be. Because she's afraid to even chance having a conversation with me.
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:49 AM
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Default What I wrote to "her"-to clarify

After 7 months of "avoidy"-in response to his increased frustration over wanting to have her participate in family functions, which he claims was based upon her continued requests to; I wrote the following email. I had to send it to him-because I don't have contact info for her. He forwarded it to her after reading it. At that point he felt it was fine. AFTER she read it, she flipped out and then he decided I was being unreasonable.



"I'm going to try to cut to the chase and keep this short and succinct.
That's not my forte-so if there is anything that you need me to
elaborate on-feel free to ask.

I asked you to stop contacting me for one very specific reason. I
found it offensive and overstepping your bounds to suggest to me that
the "real" Maca is the person you understood Maca to be versus who I
understand him to be.

I don't hate you. Nor do I believe you are a bad person, a trouble
maker, etc.I do think it would be a good idea going forward, for you
to understand that the two of you have stepped on my toes. Earning
trust takes time and effort. Earning trust after having caused someone
harm requires more time and effort. I am not a vindictive or possessive
person. However, I do have very high standards and expectations
regarding who I open up and offer my own friendship to.

I am hurt by derogatory things you said about me. I understand that
you based your statements on what you knew from the things Maca said.
That means a large part of the responsibility lays on his shoulders,
for considering what he says, what he does not say and how the
combination affects people's perceptions of who he's talking about.
However, they were still untrue assessments of who I am as a person
and it hurts me to have such things said of me.

I believe that many of the issues which arose between Maca and I at
the time you two started meeting in person have been dealt with in a
manner that should alleviate further conflict. I think he and I are
fairly clear between one another about what our expectations are with
each other regarding other friends and lovers.

I don't have any idea if you are clear on what my expectations are
regarding how I expect to be treated by Maca friends/lovers. There
seems to be two schools of thought on the topic. One is that it is his
responsibility to ensure that you are. The other is that I need to
clearly communicate my expectations to you.
I tend to be of the second school of thought. Maca tends towards the
first. As this is his attempt at building an outside friendship with
potential for more, I am willing to go with his tendencies unless
asked by you or him to clarify."
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:56 AM
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Default My expectations for metamours treatment of me

Regarding the paragraph regarding her not knowing how I expect to be treated by metamours/friends etc:

respect our boundaries
communicate directly to me on issues regarding me
treat my children with kindness and respect
never talk bad about myself, Chris or Mark in front of our children
respect my personal space
treat me kindly
not talk negatively about me behind my back
consider the consequences of their actions upon me
consider the consequences of their actions on Mark & Iís relationship
consider the consequences of their words upon me
consider the consequences of their words upon Mark & Iís relationship
consider the consequences of their actions on Chris
consider the consequences of their actions on our children
consider the consequences of their words on Chris
consider the consequences of their words on our children
NOT discipline my children
NOT undermine my, Chrisís or Markís authority with our children
NOT attempt to get in the middle of any of my other relationships
NOT attempt to undermine any of my other relationships
NOT treat me or my relationships with disdain
Be understanding of the time restraints we have for socializing


It seems obvious to me-I wouldn't normally write it out in a list like that. But-I did, in order to clarify for myself what it was that was pissing me off with the way she treated me.

To clarify-I end relationships with people who mistreat my SO's. I have terminated contact with my father and stepmother and with several close friends.
This has been a very non-negotiable agreement for Maca, GG and I for the duration of our relationships.
We have no contact with Maca's mother and GG's parents either. Because they tried to play favorite's games with our children.

So, to me-this isn't something that needs to be clearly spelled out in this format-in choosing who I socialize with, I choose people who meet the expectations. If they fail to-they get a one time warning.

In this case, she has already stomped on my toes in this arena, so this WOULD BE her warning.
But, she doesn't want the warning.
Which is fine-
in my book-if you don't want it -GO AWAY.

But, you aren't going to be coming closer to me otherwise.

**I never told Maca he couldn't retain a relationship with her. I simply refuse to have anything to do with her or to allow our children to have anything to do with her as long as she refuses to address these issues**
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