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  #221  
Old 09-20-2012, 02:04 AM
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MusicalRose MusicalRose is offline
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Thanks guys. I've used forums for over five years, so it is taking me off guard that I've seen a few new ones here. I will refer to that topic for future ones if I remember.
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  #222  
Old 09-20-2012, 02:33 AM
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Okay, so I am curious. I had written in another thread that I am not attracted to bisexual men. I had admitted that, even if there is some initial attraction to a guy, it goes away when I find out he is bi. I said that I think it has something to do with what I consider masculine, and I prefer only to be involved sexually with masculine straight men.

After that, someone PM'd me to tell me (very respectfully) that what I was talking about is homophobia. I feel that I am not homophobic, as I have no qualms or problems working with, living with, or socializing with bisexual or gay people -- I just don't want to hookup with a bi man. The idea of being sexual with a bi man turns me off, I admit it. So, I asked this person, "When is it a phobia and when is it simply a preference?" But then we never followed through with our conversation, so it is still something I wonder about. Even if it turns out that I do have some form of homophobia, however, does the logic then also follow that I should have sex with a bi man to get over it? I'm not being facetious; I am sincerely asking.


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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
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Are you also insinuating that people choose what they are attracted to and that if they somehow aren't attracted to everything under the sun then they are being discriminatory?
Discriminatory, probably not. Somewhat brainwashed by our culture, certainly. No, no one is required to be attracted to "everything under the sun," but our choices are probably sent in certain pathways early on by our culture. Either the mega culture or a micro culture, perhaps.
And why must it be that my heterosexuality is a result of societal brainwashing and not simply my preference and the identity with which I am comfortable? Is every straight person actually considered unenlightened, close-minded, and conformist, as if we made the wrong choice against what we really, really want because we do not ID as gay, bi-, pan-, or whatever other choices are out there?
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  #223  
Old 09-20-2012, 02:36 AM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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The reason I asked this question is because I've read (I think it was on Reddit) that some trans people take umbrage and feel objectified when someone admits they have a "preference" for trans/genderqueer/hermaphrodite/androgynous people. That thread was linked-to from somewhere, and I'm not particularly fond of slogging through Reddit (especially on the iPod), so I thought it was appropriate to bring it up in this thread. I was asking with a specific intent in mind, and I failed to mention that in my previous post.
I was interested in the answer because I have heard/read the same thing. I was told that specifically liking trans people was very transphobic, because if you weren't transphobic then you wouldn't even make a difference between trans and non-trans people, and therefore you would be unable to be attracted to one group more than the other.
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  #224  
Old 09-20-2012, 02:45 AM
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I was told that specifically liking trans people was very transphobic, because if you weren't transphobic then you wouldn't even make a difference between trans and non-trans people, and therefore you would be unable to be attracted to one group more than the other.
I see the reason as not wanting to be objectified, or fetishized.

Another example: I would not want to be with someone who ONLY dates plus-size women, even though I am plus-sized. I love it when someone is interested in all sizes or doesn't even notice my size, but I don't want to be someone's fetish and sought out only for my size.
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"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #225  
Old 09-20-2012, 02:53 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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NYCindie -

I am not attracted to bi-guys either . I've never even experienced much in the "initial attraction" part though (it was only ever later that I found out they were bi) even if they would normally fit my my "profile"). (PS. I don't have the same reaction to bi-girls however - apparently bi-girls can still fit my personal definition of girlie-girl and bi-guys don't fit my personal profile of manly-men...there's no accounting for taste.) Also, straight guys who are homophobic also turn me right off. As to some opposites- I have never been attracted to a lesbian and hetero-hatred also turns me right off.

I consider both of my guys as "straight but not narrow" in that they don't shy away from experiences just because they may be hit on by men - "Thanks for your interest but I'm straight, can I buy you a drink anyway?." works well for them. And they would not shy away from an experience where they might be exposed to another man's penis, even if not involved with it directly (I do like my MFM threesomes).

I like boys who like girls and girls who like boys (and maybe girls) but are flattered by attention by either sex and respond (in my mind) appropriately and with compassion in any given situation, (That's the best summation I can give currently.)

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  #226  
Old 09-20-2012, 06:21 AM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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I don't have the bi-guy thing, but I've had it with gay people. The usual scenario is that I fantasize over a famous guy, learn he's gay, and become unable to fantasize about hi or be aroused by him. I find it endlessly frustrating because I still want to. It's like my brain is telling me "okay, in that scenario, you meet this super famous guy and he's willing to date you, but now you've learned he's actually gay, so NOW this is unrealistic? Give me a break, brain."

I hate that. I've lost very good fantasy out of some self-stopping, like my brain feels like fantasizing about these men is akin to rape since they'd never consent. This is very annoying.

Not a problem with bi guys though, since they'd still be interested in women (although probably not in me. For some reason my brain doesn't care about that).

I'm not sure at what point something is a fetish and at what point it's a preference. If you're plus-size and the person is only attracted to plus-size people, is it really that different from being female and the person being only attracted to females? Neither has anything to do with who you are as a person, they're just chemical attraction based.

Conversations about what is or isn't transphobic are very hard to follow for me. I'm female. I have a female body. I have a mind. My mind isn't female. Give me a male body and I'll be a gay male instead of a straight female. I'm not cis-gendered, I don't have a gender, I don't understand what gender is, how it works, I can't tell what anyone's gender ever is unless they tell me.
I understand the physical aspect and a big part of the conventions. If I see someone in a dress and makeup I'll default to "her" and not "him", although of course they could be a crossdressing man, so that's not foolproof. But otherwise I go by the sex of the person, because the concept of a male and female gender are to me like the concept of an orange or green aura.
Okay, your aura might be orange, it might be green. That means nothing to me, I can't see auras. I totally believe that you can see them, but that's not going to help me.

So I'm all for calling trans people what they want to be called and treating them the way they want to be treated, but I don't think I'll ever understand it. I can't think of a single thing that's specific to every female and no males, or the other way around. To me the concept of "gender" seems to be a mishmash of societal and cultural norms that change from one place to the next, and there is so much variety in every single personality trait that it seems to me there are as many genders are there are people on earth. For every person who finds me extremely feminine there will be one who says I'm "such a guy" or "a gay guy in a woman's body".
And I really don't care if I'm feminine or masculine, or both, or neither. I'm just me. I'm glad I don't have to deal with trans-related problems, because they seem pretty horrible, but I simply cannot identify as cisgendered as well, because saying that my gender matches my sex is implying that I have a gender, which I don't believe is the case. I have a sex, it's female due to my body parts, and if I had been born with different body parts I'd be the exact same person mentally, just not the same physically. I'd be a man. I'd be fine with it. I would be fine on principle if someone was to zap me and turn me into a man from now on. Practically though, that would be a problem since my boyfriend is straight and we'd have to break up. Plus, it's much harder to find guys interested in males than in females.
I would have gone through different experiences as a man, being treated differently both for being a man and for being gay. But would I hate the things I love? Would I be good at the things I suck at? I doubt it. I can't think of anything else that would change with me.

Yet I don't like the idea of saying I'm neutrois or agender either. I'm a woman. I default to the body I have, in the absence of anything else, and I'm totally fine with that. If I could switch from one to the other I'd do it on a daily basis, but I can't and I'm not losing sleep over it.

Anyways, my point is that, I'm not trying to be obtuse here, when being confused about the things that offend you, Magdlyn. I simply can't understand them. My sexual/physical attraction to people is entirely based on the way they look and smell and feel to the touch. My intellectual/emotional attraction is based on who they are as a person. They are two completely independent things. I cannot translate liking someone as a person and a close friend into being sexually attracted to them if they don't "click" for me. Which I can't imagine happening if they have a vagina.

And that's probably the part that was offensive about your sentence. Your either/or option was date them or throw up/beat them up. What if you say "I'm so sorry, I care a lot about you, but we're just sexually incompatible, it would never work" and you develop your relationship without a romantic or sexual aspect, as a friendship? Does it have to be dating or being a jerk? Why can't you reject someone while still respecting them?

I don't know why people would have hangups about the fact they had sex with someone who used to have a penis. I don't understand why it would make a difference for them. The fact is that it does, though, so it seems to me you'd want to know if the person is a jerk before you have sex with them. So telling them afterwards seems... I don't know, I can't imagine doing it. Hell, I can't imagine having sex with a guy without telling him /I/ got operated on, which had nothing to do with gender or sex but still happened. It's just, if you're going to be intimate with it, I'd rather you knew everything first. No bad surprise for either of us this way.

About the example with penises that are unusually small or large, I don't think you have any obligation to reveal it before you take your clothes off (it will be obvious, after all), but I do think it would probably be a deal breaker for some people. If it was me, I'd tell them so that they can reject me while I still have my clothes on.
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  #227  
Old 09-20-2012, 11:23 AM
annakas annakas is offline
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Originally Posted by RfromRMC View Post
A bisexual man I know explained it to me as this:

Bisexual means two-- you like biological men and women.

Pansexual means a gamut--you like men, women, and anything in between. I.e., androgynous, transgendered, intersex, etc etc.

So he says he identified as bisexual and not pansexual because he "likes his men very much manly and his women very much womanly". (His words, not mine.)

So that's what I've been assuming since.
Using the definition of bisexual like that though sadly does send a very transfobic message (also a bit mysognistic (sp?) and perhaps even misandryc (sp?)), even if it is unintentional on the part of the person who uses the bisexual definition like that. It might not be intentional but the underlining patriarchical (sp?)cultural baggage for that kind of definition for bisexual gives unintentionally a very negative and rigid message within it.

If you define bisexual as someone who is attracted to biological men and women, with the add on of only manly macho men and womanly feminine women, then you are defining to others (and other bisexuals) whether you meant to or not what makes a real man and a real woman.

With a bisexual definition like that a real man is someone who is born as a cis-gendered male and who is butch, strong, stereotypically masculine and macho and a real woman is also only someone who is born as a cis-gendered female who is stereotypically feminine, soft, sweet ect.

A definition of bisexual like that basically unintentionally rigidly defines and labels for others what makes a real man and a woman. It wipes out for others a bit more flexible fluid defining of gender.

For example a definition of bisexual like that (only biologically born cis-gendered manly men and womanly women) excludes the existence and even a possibility of there being other bisexuals who are attracted to for example tomboyish women and androgynous looking men, because by definition like that tomboyish women (cis-gendered or not) are not womanly & feminine enough and androgynous looking men (cis-gendered or not) are not manly and macho enough. You are implying for other bisexuals that they must be gender confused in their attractions or label them as pansexuals, even if they don't feel the label sticks for them.

A definition like that basically implies that everyone who doesn't fallow a rigid patriarchic (sp?) stereotypical their born biological sex gender behavior code is not a real man or a woman. That anything outside of the stereotypical gender parameters must be a gender confused person. That is the kind of strictly labeling negative and limiting message a person sends out without meaning to if they use a definition of bisexual like that.

Instead it is preferable to use a definition of bisexual is someone who is attracted to both genders. And that's it! Without adding any other of biological sex or stereotypical manly men and womanly women to the definition. That way you don't define for others and send out a message of what makes for a real man or a woman.

When you define bisexual as someone who is attracted to both males and females without adding anything to the definition you will give people of both genders some breathing room to be simply men and women without labeling them in to boxes or telling them they are gender confused. Gender makes what is between your ears and not what is between your legs.

Pansexual would still be a needed term, because even with a definition of bisexual as simply someone who is attracted to both genders without any add ons, there still would be people who don't subscribe to any gender definition whatever their biological sex is.

Sorry for the rambling and bad spelling. Hopefully I was coherent. English is not my first language.

Last edited by annakas; 09-20-2012 at 11:39 AM.
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  #228  
Old 09-20-2012, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Okay, so I am curious. I had written in another thread that I am not attracted to bisexual men. I had admitted that, even if there is some initial attraction to a guy, it goes away when I find out he is bi. I said that I think it has something to do with what I consider masculine, and I prefer only to be involved sexually with masculine straight men.

After that, someone PM'd me to tell me (very respectfully) that what I was talking about is homophobia. I feel that I am not homophobic, as I have no qualms or problems working with, living with, or socializing with bisexual or gay people -- I just don't want to hookup with a bi man. The idea of being sexual with a bi man turns me off, I admit it. So, I asked this person, "When is it a phobia and when is it simply a preference?" But then we never followed through with our conversation, so it is still something I wonder about.
I guess, Cindie, there are degrees of homophobia. I don't understand why being bi would make a man less masculine in your eyes. Surely there are millions of extremely masculine bi and gay men out there. Muscled, bearded or stubbled, tall, broad shouldered, into sports, war, politics, tractors, beer, or whatever it is you see as masculine pursuits. Maybe if this certain bi guy was a Top, only into penetrating, you'd find him a masculine guy... if he was into being penetrated you'd see that as too feminine? Otherwise, I don't get it either.

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Even if it turns out that I do have some form of homophobia, however, does the logic then also follow that I should have sex with a bi man to get over it? I'm not being facetious; I am sincerely asking.
If you feel you are beset with a degree of homophobia, examine it and see what you find. No one is obliged to have sex with anyone they aren't attracted to.

I like bi guys a lot, because I am bi/pan. We click in that way, there is an area we don't have to explain to each other. We can both check out hot guys on the street together and share that, etc.

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And why must it be that my heterosexuality is a result of societal brainwashing and not simply my preference and the identity with which I am comfortable? Is every straight person actually considered unenlightened, close-minded, and conformist, as if we made the wrong choice against what we really, really want because we do not ID as gay, bi-, pan-, or whatever other choices are out there?
Well, our culture IS overwhelmingly hetero based. You may be wired hetero though, if you've never ever had a fantasy about kissing or having sex with a woman. IMO, some people really are straight, some people really are gay. It's the people in the middle who would suffer from the het culture, trying to force themselves into the straight box on a daily basis.
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  #229  
Old 09-20-2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Tonberry View Post
I was interested in the answer because I have heard/read the same thing. I was told that specifically liking trans people was very transphobic, because if you weren't transphobic then you wouldn't even make a difference between trans and non-trans people, and therefore you would be unable to be attracted to one group more than the other.
As I understand it, some transwomen like being fetishized. But more allow themselves to be fetishized as "she-males" and become paid sex workers. It can be very hard for transwomen to get and keep jobs because of our transphobic culture, so a large percentage of transwomen (as compared to cis gendered) do become sex workers.

Some men do get off on the fantasy of having a "she-male." They love the kinky idea of having a sex partner who has breasts and a cock. However, these men may not care about the person inside, just the kinky feeling of having sex with someone who has parts of a man and parts of a woman on one body. This, of course, is disrespectful, to be reduced to your body parts alone, leaving your psyche and heart out of the relationship.

Personally, I can be attracted to a drag queen, a cross dressing male, a butch woman, a femme woman, or a transperson, for their personality. The body parts don't really matter. It's all good. However I do have a special place in my heart for those that don't fit into "manly man" or "womanly woman" boxes, as I do not either. I can feel an instant bond, be simpatico, with them. There is much that is understood without needing to be explained, unlike here in this thread.

I am quite willing to admit that my attraction to femme women comes from early conditioning. Peeking at my dad's Playboys, watching movies and TV of the 1950s and 60s, big bosomy women with small waists and full skirts, gartered stockings, lots of makeup and "done" hair. This was presented to me as the way "real" women should look.

However, for me, when I first saw Dr Frank N. Furter in his garters and stockings and corset and makeup and hairdo, I also got turned on. Go figure! I guess I was 18 and by then aware that "real women" in all their frippery were as fake as can be. It takes hours of work to look like a real woman! Fuck that shit. Those "real" women, at the end of the day, take off their tight corsets and shapewear, their crippling high heels, their sticky makeup, with much relief. Then, they are actually real.
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me: Mags, female, pansexual, 59, loving and living with
miss pixi, female, pansexual, 37
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  #230  
Old 09-20-2012, 12:40 PM
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Not a problem with bi guys though, since they'd still be interested in women (although probably not in me.
Why don't you think certain bi guys would be interested in you?

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I'm not sure at what point something is a fetish and at what point it's a preference. If you're plus-size and the person is only attracted to plus-size people, is it really that different from being female and the person being only attracted to females? Neither has anything to do with who you are as a person, they're just chemical attraction based.
Chemical attraction based? Or maybe some kind of conditioning. The old nature vs nurture argument.

Quote:
Conversations about what is or isn't transphobic are very hard to follow for me. I'm female. I have a female body. I have a mind. My mind isn't female.
Actually, if you're a woman in your body and feel like a woman in your brain, you do have a female brain. Modern science is finding out much more about the brain these days. There are female brains, male brains and brains that fall somewhere in between. Gay men have brains with more female characteristics than straight male brains have.

My gf was born with a penis but has a female brain. Research has shown that there are 2 washes of androgen to a fetus during gestation. One affects the body of the fetus, one affects the brain. She got the androgens to her body, but then her mom's hormones didn't fire out the 2nd wash and give the same message to her brain to also be male.

Despite having a boy's body, her body language, voice inflections, interests, desire for long hair, clothing choices, etc., were always so feminine. She looked around, saw that women in our cluture plucked their eyebrows, shaved their legs and painted their nails, and she started doing it. She had a desire to shop for cute girl clothes and when her parents went to thrift stores, she wanted to shop for housewares, not tools. She pierced her ears and started carrying a purse and buying girl jeans. Her parents were constantly complimented on what a cute little girl they had. Her parents would correct those people, and also tell miss pixi she was a boy... she grew up extremely confused. EXTREMELY.


Quote:
Anyways, my point is that, I'm not trying to be obtuse here, when being confused about the things that offend you, Magdlyn. I simply can't understand them. My sexual/physical attraction to people is entirely based on the way they look and smell and feel to the touch. My intellectual/emotional attraction is based on who they are as a person. They are two completely independent things. I cannot translate liking someone as a person and a close friend into being sexually attracted to them if they don't "click" for me. Which I can't imagine happening if they have a vagina.
Then you're straight. I don't find that offensive.

Quote:
And that's probably the part that was offensive about your sentence. Your either/or option was date them or throw up/beat them up. What if you say "I'm so sorry, I care a lot about you, but we're just sexually incompatible, it would never work"
Actually I addressed other options in a further post. I guess you didnt see it. However, be aware that it happens all the time. The puking followed by the beating up, or even murder, when a straight guy ends up unexpectedly attracted to a transwoman. Or maybe... the ones that have the extreme reaction of puking and violent assault are not all that comfortable in their masculinity, and not as straight as they think they should be. So, if they get in a clinch with a transwoman, it makes them feel "gay," and they are so used to hating that part of themselves (because of our hetero, gay hating society, especially in red states, but not limited to there) they are actually beating themselves up when they beat up their date.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. --Shaw

me: Mags, female, pansexual, 59, loving and living with
miss pixi, female, pansexual, 37

Last edited by Magdlyn; 09-20-2012 at 01:41 PM.
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