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  #11  
Old 09-19-2012, 05:40 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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The only advice I have is that you two might want to start a blog here and talk to each other in it. That way, you can read each other's posts and other people can give you their input.

The reason I say that is because I'm getting the sense that both of you communicate more effectively in writing and when you know other people are watching. It looks like you both understand a lot about what's going on and may just need a reality check occasionally. This is quite common on this forum and elsewhere - partners finding it easy to say to strangers things they can't seem to do privately with each other.

That is the impression I have gathered after reading both of your posts. If you don't like what I have to say or think it doesn't apply to you, then just ignore it.
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  #12  
Old 09-19-2012, 06:26 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Welcome, messymess!

It's good when the other partner(s) show up too to help fill in the gaps.

I agree with Boring -- post here if you want this thread to be turned into a blog thread in the blog area. Or just go start a thread there you both write in and both read so you can move through talks better. I still think you could seek a counselor to help you in this hard transition time AND with the original "together too much" problems.

He suffered the loss of friends a LOT because of this problem -- the need to engage with OTHER PEOPLE. I'm sure there's more to the story -- but you guys living in a bubble with just each other? That's not healthy. You both get cabin fever.

I'm not criticizing either of you. I'm telling you how it appears based on info given from the outside looking it. He asked for feedback - that's how it looks. I know it is Hard to Hear, but there's a lot of hurting people here and being avoidy won't move anything forward.

He was writing all emotionally flooded --- like bllllleaaaaahhhhh! Overwhelmed to the max. Even though you write it from a less emotionally flooded place -- it is still the same things though. Nothing I said changes.


You and your husband guys are together too much -- working from home like that.

Is it possible for one of you to get a job elsewhere? Even without the GF issues this arrangement is rough on your mental health and emotional health and that affects the couple health.
She could straighten up and fly right and be more honest from the start and not so avoidy.
Whether she enjoyed it later or not, she still went ahead with something she didn't want to do for your sake, and ignored a fragile partner person (your DH). That muddies waters and is not contributing to clear communication.
YOU still want them together more than HE or GF want to be together on their own power.

You can't force that. Let it go. It is a LIMIT.
Quote:
But before I freak her outÖ I was trying to figure out if its something that my husband is even open or ready for. And especially after reading all of this and seeing the way the responses have affected him, Iím pretty sure he is not. Especially since I donít see him having the patience to wait for her to come around without feeling rejected. I donít want him to ever feel rejected.
He needs to state his limits clearly. Out loud.
"I cannot handle polyamory with your cheating partner. I cannot handle polyamory at all." He could straighten up and fly right by being firmer on his limits. Talk the talk and walk the walk. Not say/want one thing but be doing another. That does not contribute to clear communication.

When he does it? YOU need to LISTEN.
Otherwise you are still trying ostrich and ignore him to force fit something that just doesn't want to go there naturally. You are trying to polyamory-ify a cheating affair.

At best it might be a V if the trio talks and comes to terms, but when all the players are NOT in agreement?

You prolong suffering because you want to have them both and basically YOU don't want to decide. Going against their will and best health (mental health, emotional health, physical health, spiritual health) for what? Your own greedy selfish? Being avoidy on your ethics?

You guys still must talk. In trio in the same room. Not you being the middle mand. Choose to end the suffering for all with intention.
First, you are already stressed as the hinge person. You don't need to get into a "he said she said" deal. Talk in trio in the same room, avoid triangulation muddy communication waters.

No it is not fun. Do it anyway.

Because if the trio avoids talking in trio? Eventually he will choose to end the suffering and walk away from all this because he is redlining. Or she will.
Each of you must be totally honest in trio talk and state your clear wants, needs, and limits. Accept some things will NOT match up.

Where is the compromise? Where is the best solution for ALL -- in all the health buckets? Not just one player or two players, but ALL players?

Do you have to have her over? Can't see her on Fridays at HER place and not have her see him? Would that work for you? For him? For GF?

Can he live with your being friends but not lovers? Can YOU live with being friends with her but not lovers? Can she?

Is it best for all players to call this thing quits even it sucks? Because the thing just does not match up and will not fly? Stop trying to make it fly.

Some choices in life are not win or lose. But this choice sucks and that choice sucks. Which sucks the least? Choosing together to break up or going on with endless suffering til someone blows a gasket?
Quote:
I donít see him ever being able to handle the ďVĒ thing, and I wouldnít want to ever get more than he was. Iím struggling to see how that even works for people without the ends of the V feeling a little empty or less special.
Because the V ends SIGN UP for that kind of relationship from the get go. They want it and that arrangement feeds their needs. They do not have it foisted upon them.

What you have is a cheating affair and trying to polyamory-ify it. (In that article you would be the cheating husband. He would be the wife. ) That's whole other story than all players choosing a V shape polyship for themselves.

The odds of a polyship all working out from a cheating start are not great. If all parties are willing to try -- maybe. It is not impossible. But all players have to really want to do the work to rebuild broken trust, and the original issues before the affair.

Again -- I know what I wrote may be Hard to Hear.

If you love him most, end it with her if it turns out that is HIS hard limit. But he needs to tell you what his hard limit is and not go along with things compromising himself just because he wants to get a threesome or finally be with his crush or have some kind of revenge affair.

If it is a soft limit -- he needs to articulate what he can and cannot tolerate once and for all. You guys just friends? Ok, you pony up losing the lover part of it. So does she. What does he pony up? Working on forgiveness? Or is he going to hold it against you forever?

He has to straighten up and fly right. State and obey his own limitations.

You and GF need to recognize that your continued affair (now in front of his face) is causing him pain. She's just as guilty for the cheating as you are -- it takes two to tango. STOP the affair. You keep ON going with it knowing he is in fragile mental health -- what's that say about you two?

Everyone in time out for Trio Talks. It isn't just him straightening up. The ladies must straighten themselves up and fly right too. You are being awful to him. It's not flattering to either you or the GF. The affair is OVER.

Now you must CHOOSE.

You guys could talk as a trio to see where this is going to go from this point.

Make the apologies that need to be made to the right people, from the right place.

Talk in trio -- sort yourselves out. IF after a break to deal with the process of grief, he finds he is open to your trying to date again, this time from an Open and Honest place? Then start a NEW relationship with her. And slow it way down this time and take the time to check on each other's health buckets more.

If that is a LIMIT and it is just not possible? You must accept this and decide -- break up with her, break up with him, or break up with BOTH. Then pick up the pieces of whatever it is you are at.

I truly hope you guys get to better footing, in whatever shape the next configuration is to be.

Namaste.
GalaGirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 09-19-2012 at 06:49 PM.
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  #13  
Old 09-19-2012, 06:42 PM
messymess messymess is offline
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I don't think its a matter of either of us not admitting limits or things as much as figuring out what they are as we go along. I would not continue down a path that I knew my husband was not agreeing to. I have not continued on anything behind his back without his knowledge or with the intent of keeping things open for all of us. I think that as with anything, this has been an up and down process that just very recently has turned this way... the day he wrote this post. I think we all believed he was ok with everything until that day that something snapped and he realized he was not.

My friend has no idea that any of this is going on... and does not know that he knew about us before the threesome was suggested. I'm crazy nervous about that conversation, but i know it has to happen sooner or later with her. She doesnt want to make the dynamic between the three of us weird. But I agree that we can't go on without everyone understanding the full picture.

Thank you for the thoughts
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  #14  
Old 09-19-2012, 07:10 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by messymess View Post
She doesnt want to make the dynamic between the three of us weird.
Too late, it already is weird, whatever "weird" is supposed to mean. If "weird" is the opposite of "ideal" or "usual" then it definitely sounds like it's weird.
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  #15  
Old 09-19-2012, 07:24 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
I don't think its a matter of either of us not admitting limits or things as much as figuring out what they are as we go along.
Why would this be needed? Because you are not truth telling. You broke a boundary with your friend and did not own up to it right away. Mistakes can happen. But you did not apologize to him right away and own it. Have you apologized now for that part? I hope so.

Then make an intentional plan in TRIO. Please do no bungle along trying to figure your way out of this mess as you go along. We can't help how we feel. We CAN help how we behave in response to those feelings. We can choose to react or act with intention.

Both have their uses. We REACT to get the kid out of the street when the car is coming. It is not the time for deliberation. But I'm hoping you guys are done reacting to this relationship problem. All you've gotten so far is reacting all avoidy. It is the type that is better solved by acting with intent, deliberations, facing things, etc.

Quote:
I would not continue down a path that I knew my husband was not agreeing to.
He agreed to an affair? This does not sound like agreement:

Quote:
I confronted my wife almost immediately. We were alone, in our house, and I just broke down in tears. Everything that I have been battling, all the emotions along with this devastating discovery absolutely destroyed me.
Later when he told you about discovery of the affair and you saw how much he did not want this you offered a threesome for what purpose? Is that not leading him down a path you know he's not up for?

He was thinking about a divorce and in a mentally fragile state. You throw other Shiny Distractions in there. That is not clear communication. That is taking advantage of fragile.

It is what it is. I am not blaming or judging. I am pointing out because if you guys want to NOT BE IN THE PLACE AGAIN -- something must change. And you can only change yourselves and your behaviors. Not each other. Everyone must hold their own baggage.

If you want to not continue down a path he is not on board with, or a path she might not be on board with, you must talk in Trio. Check in with your people before you decide to do things that concern them.

I'm glad you are moving that way toward a talk in trio. When's your appointment time to talk? How's your conflict resolution skills? Do you know you can pause if anyone emotionally floods? Some things take more than on session to solve. Take the talk in trio as opportunity to plan and be intentional about it. Not just wing it.


I have not continued on anything behind his back without his knowledge or with the intent of keeping things open for all of us.


He already outed your affair. It isn't like you have a choice. In order to still be with her you have to do it in front of him rather than behind his back. He already knows. Your intent to keep things open for all? Not so noble -- it means you still get yours that way. It's time to perhaps think the other way -- closing. If closing is what is healthiest for your partner(s), then that has to be considered too. What is healthiest for ALL, not just individuals.

Quote:
I think that as with anything, this has been an up and down process that just very recently has turned this way... the day he wrote this post. I think we all believed he was ok with everything until that day that something snapped and he realized he was not.
I beg to differ. Let's not be avoidy.

Did you not just write your GF does not know all this is going on? That is NOT "we all believed he was ok."

That is you and him thought you could solve this behind her back -- and allowing her body to be used by you two without her being given full information of the situation. Do you think she would have been happy for a threesome knowing he knew of the affair?

If she is totally fine with it -- are YOU happy dating a person who cares so little for your DH's feelings that they are ok using his body? Causing him distress? If you love him so, how is allowing him to be used like this loving behavior?

Did he not out your cheating texts and want a divorce? Two days later you dangle the threesome carrot. You and DH go away for a weekend and bring it up to her and 2 weeks after that the threesome happens. From divorce devastation to threesome carrot in 2-3 weeks? This is enough time to get over a cheating betrayal affair thing?

Nope. Both of you were avoiding dealing with your original marriage troubles in favor of the weekend away and threesome carrot distraction.

Let's call it what it is. It is NOT "everything is ok." It is you and DH being avoidy. Her not being clear in her communication/avoidy.

Not enough truth telling all around. Even if you all decide to fly this polyship in the shape of a V if you don't solve this communication/truth telling thing you are headed for more wacky.

Quote:
My friend has no idea that any of this is going on... and does not know that he knew about us before the threesome was suggested.
And this paints you as a truth teller how? Paints DH as a truth teller how? Witholding information is lies of omission. Break this habit. It does not assist clear communication.

Quote:
I'm crazy nervous about that conversation, but i know it has to happen sooner or later with her. She doesnt want to make the dynamic between the three of us weird.
Sooner is better. It is already all kinds of weird. From avoidance. So what if you feel uncomfortable? You GET comfortable talking in trio about emotional things by DOING.

If you feel this way about him (that you love him with all your heart) , and you also love her -- I hope you start behaving with loving behavior toward them then even if it is hard to do. That is part of what love is.

Don't try to force fit and fly and thing that doesn't want to fly. Take a good look at it and assess it. But then accept the results if the results are not a flier.

Some choices in life are this sucks and this sucks. Then you just have to pick which sucks least. If the most loving thing you can do to help their long term mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual healths is to let them go? One or the other or both? Then this you must do.

Quote:
Thank you for the thoughts
You are welcome. Again, I know it is Hard to Hear.

But straighten up. You can do it! I keep hoping you will all find your way.

GL!

GG

Last edited by GalaGirl; 09-19-2012 at 08:09 PM.
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  #16  
Old 09-20-2012, 01:28 AM
MeeraReed MeeraReed is offline
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I'm going to take a bit of a different tack here. As I was reading the husband's original posts, I was struck by how charming the whole situation seems. (He and his wife both fell in love with the same person? How cute!) And I felt that overall, his relationship with his wife seems pretty good, all things considered.

I know some people want to come down strongly on cheating. But this seems like a prime example of a case where cheating should not be that big of a deal or that big of a betrayal.

Yes, Messymess cheated on her husband and initially was lying outright about it. But, meanwhile, Polyscared was himself engaging in emotional cheating (albeit one-sided cheated since the object of his affections was in the dark about it). For months, he spent hours a day thinking obsessively about his crush on his wife's best friend, tormented with fantasies about her, confiding these feelings to his own best friend but not to his wife. His connection with his wife drifted during this time, in part because he was being dishonest with her by not sharing the fact that he had fallen in love with someone else.

Please appreciate the adorable, charming aspect of this story. A husband and wife each fall in love with other people, and keep that love secret from each other. Then it turns out they have fallen in love with the same person. How cute is that! Think of it as a twist on the "Do You Like Pina Coladas" song.

Messymess clearly feels bad about the cheating. Certainly, it was wrong to act on her feelings before talking to her husband. But I can imagine a situation in which a close, cuddly friendship progressed slowly into fooling around, until suddenly it was too late and Messymess found herself in over her head. (Yes, that's point where she should have confessed all to her husband instead of hiding her text messages, but people don't always do the right thing, and Messymess knows she did wrong).

I think there is also some leeway for forgiveness in a situation where both members of a married couple have been together since adolescence. If you have never had feelings for anyone else since you were fifteen, you will have no idea how to process those feelings when they happen. (It's pretty rare, in fact, for anyone to have feelings for only one person throughout their entire lifetime. But no, you don't always have to act on it).

For what it's worth, it sounds like your love for each other and your communication with each other are solid. I think you'll get through this.

Now, as for the main problem. Polyscared feels left out of his wife's relationship with her best friend. Well, unfortunately, it sounds as if the best friend simply isn't in love with the husband, and is maybe only halfway interested in having sex with him.

That's sad, but that's just sometimes the way it works out. In most threesomes, two people often have a stronger connection to each other. It's very rare for the "third" to connect equally with both members of a couple. (Maybe in this case, the best friend simply doesn't experience romantic feelings for men).

Polyscared, you don't really have a right to demand that your wife only be involved with her best friend if you can be involved with her too. You do have a right to ask that your wife stop seeing her friend and work on your marriage; but you also may choose to allow your wife to have a poly relationship that does not include you.

It does sound like the best friend is a bit immature. If she really can't handle any type of emotional communication, she might not be the best candidate for either you or your wife to be involved with.

On the other hand, she might simply have a different communication style than you are familiar with. Some people just require more patience.

As for the sexual problems: stop having threesomes with the best friend if you can't talk to her about basic things, such as how you like to be touched during sex, and how you have feelings for her but feel unsatisfied in your interactions with her.

(Definitely take alcohol and pot out of the equation entirely).

Also, read as much as you can on this forum to see how different forms of poly work for the various people who have poly relationships.
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  #17  
Old 09-20-2012, 02:49 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
Please appreciate the adorable, charming aspect of this story. A husband and wife each fall in love with other people, and keep that love secret from each other. Then it turns out they have fallen in love with the same person. How cute is that! Think of it as a twist on the "Do You Like Pina Coladas" song.
Um... no? I don't find anything cute or charming about it. It left the "cute" arena ages ago when it stopped being a mutual crush at a distance.

I don't think Polyscared or Messymess are finding it cute or charming either. Calling it "cute and charming" minimizes their pain. Why else would he and she be posting to try to sort themselves out?

This is Hang Time at the Forge for these people. Going through a tough situation. Hopefully they will make it out the other end ok one way or another stronger and wiser for the experience.

I do agree with your other points. What is done is done. Something must change in how they deal with each other in relationship.

These folks could try to move it forward and get back into right relationship with each other and try to carry on their future interactions in relationship in a better way. Learning from mistakes hurts. But sometimes that's how one grows. People are human, mistakes happen. It's now all about HOW they choose to cope with it now.

Polyscared, Merrymess, GF (sorry don't have any other name for you) -- I really do hope you find your way to a better future. It isn't easy to come to a board to ask for feedback. It's a brave thing to do -- but don't stop there! Keep on going! Have that trio talk and sort yourselves out.

I know full well what I write is Hard to Hear. Critique is not the same as Criticism. My intent is to try to help you see where it could have been different for next time, not pile on more hurts. I really hope you don't find yourselves in THIS situation again because you'll have more ideas for how to handle it in another way. Change your way of going so you don't have to hurt like this again.

Hopefully move yourselves forward to a place where you can love each other in right relationship without underlying pain.

How can other people help support you in your time of need? Links to resources? Was just airing out your story all your wanted to do?

best wishes,
GG

Last edited by GalaGirl; 09-20-2012 at 02:59 AM.
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  #18  
Old 09-21-2012, 06:46 PM
messymess messymess is offline
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This is a lot of info here. My husband and I have been talking a lot about the situation and the direction we are going to take. Hours a day actually... so although its GalaGirl's favorite word... we are definitely not being "avoidy" anymore

To be clear... it was not a back to back thing of "oooh you caught me... how about you sleep with her and we make it better" Obviously this all has been a process. A lot of talking. A lot of arguing. A lot of feelings. Yes... a lot of apologizing. I have not been the wife I promised to be...and I am not denying that. The threesome suggestion came out later... after we talked about his feelings for her... and how the two of them never acted on their flirting. I know she is attracted to him... and I know that she cares a lot for him. With me caring for him, and also caring for her, and realizing he cared for her too... it just kinda... went that way. I wasnt trying to avoid or distract. I wasnt even trying to suggest it to keep things going with her and I, although I know it may seem that way. My husband and I have never been with anyone else... I guess I just wanted him to feel it too. And obviously was excited about the threesome idea myself of course.

My husband and I will continue to work things out and talk. We understand that we have a lot of things to work on in our own relationship. We have been questioning the idea of moving more into this whole "poly" world. Its an incredibly new idea or thought to either of us.

From our recent talk, we have talked about the idea of him dating a bit. It seems he's more upset about the idea that he will never experience the type of other relationship that I have more than he is upset about the idea of the two of us together. We realize there could be a lot of problems with this and are being very careful and thoughtful about as much as we can. I am sure we will ask for plenty of advice and thoughts here once we figure out what direction we will go in. Regardless... we will not jump into anything until we know we are ready.

It may not have been painted here very well... but I firmly believe in mine and my husbands relationship... along with our ability to communicate. Everyone knows there's always a lot more to a story than a page of text... and our story has gone on for over 15 years now. 12 of which we've spent all of our days and nights together. To say that we don't have a strong relationship would be crazy. This is completely something we've had no thoughts or experiences with... so its incredibly new for us... and we are learning and figuring this out as we go along.

I appreciate everyone being open-minded of both sides, and taking the time to share their suggestions and thoughts. Its nice to know that we have so many other experiences and ideas to help down this path.

We are leaving this weekend for a week vacation with a group of friends... and are hoping to have a great time and check out of this situation for a bit. When we get back... we will come up with our next step.
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  #19  
Old 09-21-2012, 07:09 PM
cuninglingwist cuninglingwist is offline
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What a mess you have caused for yourselves,
well hears another different take on this.

1)you are way to analistic, stop the nit picking its driving you crazy.

2) most of this is coming from the fact you both havent really had anyone ell's
so you feel this great sense of betrayal, im sorry but there are no more
virgins left in the world, none virgins are wonderful, the fact this
girl has fingered your virgin wifes cunt does not make your wife a slut.

3) Any openminded grown man knows for his wife or girlfriend to have sex with
another girl its not really cheating, only closed minded insecure men think
like that, a real man will embrace her bisexuallity, there is no cock involved
they are just enjoying there sensuallity with lots of Oral, plus Hey! you may
get lucky.

4) Bisexuality in females is normal and natural since the world began, in the old
days when men went to war and gone for years and the females left at home
it was called giving sexual comfort to each other,only repressive religious
inspired society denies this and should be ignored.

5) You and your wife have become sexually and emotionally attached to this
girl, its almost as if you both have seperate lovers, but its the same girl that
has a emotional deficit disorder, she has fire walls that stop her from
enjoying both of you sexually and emotionally at the same time, that stops
her from agressivly servicing you (even if she wants to) but not with your
wife there, not wanting to look like she is betraying your wife, you sence this
in her, this creates lack of performance with you and possibly jealousy
towards your wife knowing she can make her cream without you..

6)Neither of you want this, but dont want to lose her, it may be good for her
the way she choses to be, but an emotional disaster for you and your wife.

7) You and your wife need to face the music and realize fucking her seperate
will never work, you need to start thinking about fucking her like a loving
inseprable team. Forget the singular emotions or fucking her seperatly in a
different room or one on one, you and your wife need to be their for each
other, wife behind her holding her while you fuck her, verbally urging you
on "fuck that tiny cunt baby, give it to her hard, oh yes fuck that slut, you
doing the same urging her to make her cum on her tongue make her cum all
over your face baby, Once she see's you working together as a team to fuck
her brains out she will lose her dominant control of both of you, her fire
walls will melt, her own body without her mind control will become sexually
agressive like an animal begging you not to stop, she will become your fuck
slave, Deep down thats what she wanted, what did she get at first, a couple
that was to timmid and dithering so she called the shots, no she is not going
to run away, she will be addicted to your cock and your wifes sweet pussy,
any emotional need will be coming from her not you two, you and your wife
will be so much in love and she will be like your adopted incest daughter
you can thank me later.
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  #20  
Old 09-21-2012, 08:30 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
My husband and I will continue to work things out and talk. We understand that we have a lot of things to work on in our own relationship. We have been questioning the idea of moving more into this whole "poly" world. Its an incredibly new idea or thought to either of us.

From our recent talk, we have talked about the idea of him dating a bit. It seems he's more upset about the idea that he will never experience the type of other relationship that I have more than he is upset about the idea of the two of us together. We realize there could be a lot of problems with this and are being very careful and thoughtful about as much as we can. I am sure we will ask for plenty of advice and thoughts here once we figure out what direction we will go in. Regardless... we will not jump into anything until we know we are ready.
Oh, good! I'm glad you guys are talking.

It IS hard to tell what is what from a distance merely in writing. No body language, voice inflection -- can only go by face value of what is written.

Only you guys know what it going on there in real life.

Glad to hear things are moving forward even if the sorting yourselves out process is challenging.

Hang in there!

GG
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