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  #191  
Old 09-19-2012, 02:09 AM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by JaneQSmythe View Post
"Has a pussy" is certainly one criteria that some people might use in their personal definition of "girlie girl". Dude finds quite a wide variety of women sexually appealing (many, many more than I do - like practically all of them). He used to include "women who were BORN women" as one of his only criteria.
Gender is between the ears. My gf, miss pixi, was born a woman, despite her genitalia, despite the testosterone she used to produce, which she calls poison (for her).

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I then asked him about people with "testicular feminization syndrome" (or "androgen insensitivity syndrome") - people with an XY genotype who are phenotypically female...showed him pictures and got him all turned around.
Well, good.

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Having said this...I don't see him beating anyone up. I do think that being a post-op transwoman might be something important that someone might want to disclose about themselves before things got to the "fucking" stage (kinda like being poly) if you plan on trying for any long-term relationship type thing, especially as that is the sort of thing that might be "discovered" during said "fucking" (a little anal play and..."oh, hey, there's a prostate in here").
Ugh, that's up to the person. If you had a congenital gene that would potentially cause a birth defect if the condom broke, would you feel obliged to announce this during a night of drinking and casual sex?

Long term relationship, sure. But that is not my point. My point is that transwomen are women, even if their hands and jaw are larger than the average ciswoman, even if you don't find them attractive or "passable." BTW, there are many many "masculine looking" ciswomen out there.

I know I came across a little strong. But casual dissing of transpeople is so rife! My gf wrote a strongly worded letter to Conan O'Brien, who used to constantly mock transpeople on his show, and he soon afterward offered an apology on the show and quit doing it!

Addressed to all: Please consider your words and respect this sector of our community. Think of what transkids go through. It's horrible.
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  #192  
Old 09-19-2012, 02:13 AM
Dolly Dolly is offline
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I have a hard time with labels as well. It is up to each person to define themselves. I just say I am a sexual being, and my attractions are dependent on many factors. For example, let's say there are identical twin females sitting at a table in a restaurant I just happen to be eating at as well. They may look exactly alike, but there are so many more layers: mannerisms, carriage, body language, behavior...I may instantly find myself attracted to one, while not attracted to the other at all. It has nothing at all to do with whether they are male or female, straight or gay, androgenous, transgendered, bisexual...there are just qualities that I am drawn to--behaviors and personalities that appeal to me.

~Dolly
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  #193  
Old 09-19-2012, 05:47 AM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
That's kind of transphobic, actually.

My gf is transgender, but very much a woman. More femme than I am (I'm cisgendered, but fall somewhere in between butch and femme). Despite being pre-op, she is "very much womanly," and so are most transwomen I know.

I actually love androgyny and sometimes wish my gf wasn't quite so much of a woman! heh
I was surprised by your reaction.
As you say, you can be very womanly and still be trans. I don't see where they said trans people were not valid options. Only that they liked people at either extreme (very manly or very womanly) and not in the middle (androgynous). Which is androgynousphobe if it's any -phobe at all.

And even if the person said they weren't attracted to trans people, I'm not sure that would be transphobic. I'm not attracted to women and that doesn't make me misogynistic. You don't control who you're attracted to, it's good to know what works for you, and as long as you don't hate, insult or disrespect the people you're not attracted to, I don't see how you're discriminating against them by listening to your libido.

I understand it's an important subject for you, since your girlfriend no doubt has had to deal with a lot of assholes. I wouldn't date your girlfriend, but that doesn't make me a trans-hater (of course in my case, since I'm straight, that probably doesn't offend you as much).

I'm sure many cisgendered people are not attractive to the person who says they "like their men very manly and their women very womanly". And I'm sure many trans people are attractive to them. I saw no part of this statement saying "their sex and gender have to match". Only that they need to a) have a gender and b) be extremes of their gender.
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  #194  
Old 09-19-2012, 10:15 AM
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I saw no part of this statement saying "their sex and gender have to match". Only that they need to a) have a gender and b) be extremes of their gender.

No, JaneQ said Dude said the woman had to have been born a woman. But that that means with a vagina. It's a tricky concept but yet still quite disrespectful to transpeople.

I am not just concerned with my gf here, but with all transgender, intersexed and genderfluid people. Heck, I'm genderqueer myself. The fact that so many are confused by the concepts I am talking of here shows an area of ignorance I am trying to throw some light on. Our culture supports the idea that it's perfectly natural to be disgusted by transpersons (no matter how femme the woman is or how butch the man is), much less attracted to them.
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  #195  
Old 09-19-2012, 02:40 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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Ah, my mistake.

Still, while I definitely think it's a good idea for people to actually consider the idea (rather than reject it without thinking about it), if their conclusion is that they couldn't handle it, well it's also better for the trans person if they don't try anyway. That would just hurt them in the end.

I personally don't know how I could handle a boyfriend with a vagina, all my favourite sex acts involve a penis and I hate toys. I'm not sure what we would be able to do and at this point I'd rather be friends with him. I don't think that makes me disgusted by trans people, or transphobic. And even if it did, there have been people who were disgusted by the idea of having me as a partner for something as ridiculous as not shaving. If it turns them off, though, it turns them off. What my body looks like does matter since that's what they're having sex with.

I'm personally not sure why it would matter how the person was born (if you give me a trans guy with a functioning penis, I don't see what the difference is with a cis guy) but I think it definitely matters what they look like right now for sexual purposes.

There is a lot of talk about not being shallow and stuff, and I used to think that being shallow was the worst, too. Result? I was in a relationship for five years with someone I wasn't attracted to, I married him, and our relationship just spiraled downwards, and the lack of attraction was both fed by and causing our issues.
So yeah, I used to think if you are in love with someone, the rest doesn't matter. But I don't think that anymore. I think the rest does matter.

With all that being said, I think it usually comes down to a case by case basis. Maybe if I meet a guy I'm attracted to, I have chemistry with, etc, then his lack of a penis (Be it because he has a vagina, or for any other reason, such as an accident or whatever) might be something I'd be willing to overlook. I'm polyamorous, after all, I can always get my sexual needs met elsewhere.
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  #196  
Old 09-19-2012, 03:33 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
No, JaneQ said Dude said the woman had to have been born a woman. But that that means with a vagina. It's a tricky concept but yet still quite disrespectful to transpeople.

I am not just concerned with my gf here, but with all transgender, intersexed and genderfluid people. Heck, I'm genderqueer myself. The fact that so many are confused by the concepts I am talking of here shows an area of ignorance I am trying to throw some light on. Our culture supports the idea that it's perfectly natural to be disgusted by transpersons (no matter how femme the woman is or how butch the man is), much less attracted to them.
I'm curious what your thoughts are about individuals who are SPECIFICALLY attracted TO androgynous/gender-queer/transpeople. Would that be considered disrespectful or "phobic" or "anti" in any way?
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  #197  
Old 09-19-2012, 05:33 PM
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I'm curious what your thoughts are about individuals who are SPECIFICALLY attracted TO androgynous/gender-queer/transpeople. Would that be considered disrespectful or "phobic" or "anti" in any way?
Anti-establishment, anti-patriarchy, anti-stereotype.

Face it, most people are androgynous. All women have some male in them, and vice versa. However, our culture demands and promotes the extremes. We decorate baby's nursery in pink or blue before they even come out of the womb. We socially ostracize, ridicule and humiliate effeminate boys/men and make sure our tomboys are shoved into dresses.

Why not let each person be as femme or butch as they really want to be? Let Jack feel soft and pretty when he feels like it? Let Jill drive a monster truck, or watch football with the guys instead of being expected to be in the kitchen cooking for them?
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me: Mags, 59, living with:
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  #198  
Old 09-19-2012, 06:18 PM
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MusicalRose MusicalRose is offline
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So I can't be attracted to something without being rebellious against something else? I don't think that is a particularly fair way to pigeonhole anyone or their preferences. Actually I get quite sick of people that tell me I'm just trying to be different. I like what I like and I don't need to be rallying against something else to like it.

Are you also insinuating that people choose what they are attracted to and that if they somehow aren't attracted to everything under the sun then they are being discriminatory?

I don't mean to be harsh, but I don't think anyone in here has been trans-phobic in any way. No hate has been spewed. Maybe for some their preferences of who to date and engage in sexual activities with is limited to born sex, but there is nothing wrong with that if they are content to live and let live. It doesn't mean that they are saying that transgendered or transsexual individuals are less than human, just that they aren't people they are interested in dating at the moment.

A straight person is not homophobic by default. A homosexual person is not heterophobic by default. Attraction =/= fear or disgust of whatever you aren't attracted to.

I am very personally supportive of transgendered, transsexual, genderqueer, genderfluid, etc. people, and am even quite attracted to the androgynous and some transgendered or transsexual individuals. I haven't seen anyone say anything that offensive in this topic at all, specifically the first post that started this whole bout. A man simply liking extremes of gender norms is not transphobic. Like someone else has already said, it is more androgynophobic if anything but I don't even think it is that. Later information showed that he probably also wasn't comfortable with a transgendered individual as a sexual partner, but that doesn't matter. Everybody has their preferences.

I don't think anybody in here meant to offend in any way at all, but in your perceived offense you are starting to say some things that may be hurtful or offensive in and of themselves. You are pigeonholing people and reading their minds without their consent when you say things like someone who is attracted to androgynous/gender-queer/transpeople is anti-establishment. The two are not one and the same and it isn't fair to thrust that on others.

Last edited by MusicalRose; 09-19-2012 at 07:36 PM.
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  #199  
Old 09-19-2012, 07:19 PM
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RfromRMC RfromRMC is offline
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Good points, musicalrose.

My quote earlier from my bisexual male friend were his words describing why he preferred to identify as bisexual and not Pansexual. He had described pansexuals as being attracted to all genders, including transgendered individuals AND androgyny. (At least in his personal understanding of the word.)
He was explaining that he is not personally attracted to those types, and is attracted to masculine biological men, and feminine biological women. Thus, he identified as definitely Bisexual and clearly not pansexual.

Does that make him transphobic? Oh heck no. It is one's sexual preference, and not job discrimination, disowning family members, using slurs, or even who you choose to be friends.

Sexual preference is just that....nothing more.
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Last edited by RfromRMC; 09-19-2012 at 07:26 PM.
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  #200  
Old 09-19-2012, 08:00 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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I'm curious what your thoughts are about individuals who are SPECIFICALLY attracted TO androgynous/gender-queer/transpeople. Would that be considered disrespectful or "phobic" or "anti" in any way?
The reason I asked this question is because I've read (I think it was on Reddit) that some trans people take umbrage and feel objectified when someone admits they have a "preference" for trans/genderqueer/hermaphrodite/androgynous people. That thread was linked-to from somewhere, and I'm not particularly fond of slogging through Reddit (especially on the iPod), so I thought it was appropriate to bring it up in this thread. I was asking with a specific intent in mind, and I failed to mention that in my previous post.
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