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  #211  
Old 09-08-2012, 02:36 AM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
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Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
...when he said his wife was "cock-blocking" him, then followed up with an explanation that what he meant by it was that she was preventing him from getting something he wants - that was because of naivete and living on an island? ... Evan was not raised on this Island. He was raised in the US, and spent quite a bit of time in Hollywood, according to his own account in this here very thread.
If calling a woman a vulgar name, like cock-blocker or pussy-blocker, because she 'stands in the way of something he wants' is really just a different paradigm, then there's no reason to object to any other man calling women vulgar names, either, whether it's because they stand in the way of those men getting what they want, or for any other reason.

I think the objections that have gone on in this thread are not about anyone failing to understand someone else's differing paradigms. If he knew 25% of the people in Hollywood and dated 40 women there, then he's not some poor naive guy of a different culture who just didn't 'get' how disrespectful it is to call a woman a name like that.
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  #212  
Old 09-08-2012, 02:39 AM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by WhatHappened View Post
If calling a woman a vulgar name, like cock-blocker or pussy-blocker, because she 'stands in the way of something he wants' is really just a different paradigm, then there's no reason to object to any other man calling women vulgar names, either, whether it's because they stand in the way of those men getting what they want, or for any other reason.

I think the objections that have gone on in this thread are not about anyone failing to understand someone else's differing paradigms. If he knew 25% of the people in Hollywood and dated 40 women there, then he's not some poor naive guy of a different culture who just didn't 'get' how disrespectful it is to call a woman a name like that.
Precisely. Maybe they'll like the way you said it better than the way I said it.

May I also add that the OP has bragged about being a professional poker player, to the effect that he can read his wife's secret "inner poly" thoughts.

I'm not making any of this up. It's all here in this thread somewhere, and in that other thread about whales and scissors. But go ahead - blame it on me because I'm referring to it.
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  #213  
Old 09-08-2012, 03:27 AM
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lovefromgirl lovefromgirl is offline
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Originally Posted by WhatHappened View Post
If calling a woman a vulgar name, like cock-blocker or pussy-blocker, because she 'stands in the way of something he wants' is really just a different paradigm, then there's no reason to object to any other man calling women vulgar names, either, whether it's because they stand in the way of those men getting what they want, or for any other reason.
Did I stammer when I said, earlier, that that sort of thing wasn't ethical? No? [edited: Or at least did I encourage that speech? Also no?] Good. Now that we're on the same page...

Quote:
I think the objections that have gone on in this thread are not about anyone failing to understand someone else's differing paradigms. If he knew 25% of the people in Hollywood and dated 40 women there, then he's not some poor naive guy of a different culture who just didn't 'get' how disrespectful it is to call a woman a name like that.
I think of Hollywood and the like as insular, very different from anything I experience; yes, I think a man born and raised there could be naive. I met one myself who behaved far worse around women. Be grateful if you haven't. I think women who don't come from that background are a tremendous shock to men who do, and that PP is in for a few of those tremendous shocks. Has had a few, in fact, seeing how the women here have reacted. Nobody changes overnight. My experience with Mr. Hollywood taught me that no, respect for women is not necessarily taught there as it's taught in other environments.

It's not about being on an island -- he's an expat himself! -- as much as it is a lack of understanding of our more robust, more egalitarian women living in the middle class and below. My views are likely just as much a shock to him as his are to me, and we would never be compatible.

Since my interest is in the ethics of the matter and not in any "one true way" to do poly, all I can advise is that everything is considered carefully. Love with everyone's consent. That's the bottom line. The trappings may not be to your taste or mine, but he's got the right to try it out and see how it works.
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  #214  
Old 09-08-2012, 03:47 AM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
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Did I stammer when I said, earlier, that that sort of thing wasn't ethical? No? [edited: Or at least did I encourage that speech? Also no?] Good. Now that we're on the same page...
There's no need for snarkiness. I wasn't addressing you. I was talking about the entire shift of tone in this entire thread.

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Love with everyone's consent. That's the bottom line. The trappings may not be to your taste or mine, but he's got the right to try it out and see how it works.
And this is exactly the point. Not only I, but many people, have gotten the distinct impression through the whole thread that this love is not with the consent of Evan's girlfriend, that she has not consented to live like this, but is being pushed along. Yes, of course he can try anything he likes. And I can state that I, personally, don't find it ethical to be pushing someone into this, especially someone who, with four young children (three of her own and one with him, correct?), is in a very difficult position of dependency on him, and calling them vulgar names if they don't agree.
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  #215  
Old 09-08-2012, 04:08 AM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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And this is exactly the point. Not only I, but many people, have gotten the distinct impression through the whole thread that this love is not with the consent of Evan's girlfriend, that she has not consented to live like this, but is being pushed along. Yes, of course he can try anything he likes. And I can state that I, personally, don't find it ethical to be pushing someone into this, especially someone who, with four young children (three of her own and one with him, correct?), is in a very difficult position of dependency on him, and calling them vulgar names if they don't agree.
Also, here's the thing.

Evan is not the first person to have this particular fantasy and the financial means to realize it. But, that is getting mixed in with the REALITY which What Happened summarized just there. I have personally suggested (respectfully or at least neutrally) that Evan take his fantasy-harem plans (or whatever you call it "Generous enabling with boundaries?") to a blog thread where he can explore without the inconvenience of people disagreeing with him.

In the mean-time, OF COURSE people are going to draw on that fantasy for example and "ammunition", for lack of a nicer word, in rebuttal against Evan's OWN STORIES about condescending, disrespectful, nasty things he says to and about his wife and also through actions WHICH HE TOLD US. Nobody here is making any of this up. I could sit here all night going through this thread and quoting and highlighting where Evan has contradicted himself and ignored people's (respectful or neutral) questions, scolded people because he can dish it out but not take it, but I really don't give a crap enough to go through all that. The reason I registered on this forum was because of the threads that teach people how NOT to treat their partner(s). That is probably the reason i continue to come back to this thread. Not because I am "triggered" by this. This is totally an example of what NOT to do. Like they say, There is no "right" way to "do poly", but there are plenty of WRONG ways.
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  #216  
Old 09-08-2012, 12:23 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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Growing up and living in high levels of privilege is often very isolating. The people around you are disconnected from what most folks think of as "normal life". The rules are very different - how you talk, what you do, even the rules of relationships and "decent behaviour". A lot of relationships are highly dysfunctional, the people highly disingenuous. If you have not experienced it personally, then it can be very hard to believe just how different it is.

Is PolyPhonic going about dealing with his current relationship the best way? No, I don't believe that he is, and I have tried to respectfully point out the things that he is doing that are problematic. Is his poly dream anything like mine? No it isn't, and I think that it is fraught with all sorts of issues and impracticalities, which I have tried to calmly and respectfully point out.

PP has some decisions to make. If he wants to build his relationships based on what I have seen of the insular nature of privilege then he isn't going to find a lot of resonance here, because not a lot of people here can relate to his situation. If he wants to try to follow the paradigms of the rest of mainstream society then he has a ton of work to do with his current relationship, and adjustments to his expectations for the future.

When we react to someone's posting, we should take a thought as to what goal we are trying to achieve by reacting that way. We have a choice - we can either help him with this, providing advice, pointing out areas of caution, and behaviours that we see from our vantage point as ethically problematic, or we can mock him, pick apart his words and judge him based on our own paradigms. Which of these two achieve any sort of change in a positive direction?

ETA: This insular nature of privileged society has nothing to do with a Caribbean island - it exists in Hollywood, New York City, Spain and quite a few other places. Most of these people do move around quite a bit, because they have property in several locations.
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Last edited by CielDuMatin; 09-08-2012 at 12:44 PM.
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  #217  
Old 09-08-2012, 02:09 PM
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PolyPhonic PolyPhonic is offline
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You being the "cultured westerner" who would save them from themselves? Did you really mean to say such a thing? If so, your views are clearly those of a supremacist, and elitist, which is rather disgusting. While you indeed may be from a different culture than the locals, do not for a moment believe that you are more cultured, as in, more advanced, more sophisticated, or superior in any way -- nor that any of the local islanders would want to be "merged" with you for any reason other than to take your money and laugh at you behind your back.
In so many words: This just shows me how much you know.

Your communication is immature, reactive, and contains words that are caustic when coupled with your intentions. If you don't mind fooling yourself by only listening to those who support you (your family and friends), than by all means go on the rest of your life with your immature, reactive, caustic attitude. But if you are interested in maturing, and more respectful communication, you should think about what I've said and check out all the arguments you get in where you leave the argument for the "high ground". Those would be the red flags to look out for, when you behave like that in an argument.

More on topic, can you answer the following of mine in response to what you said above:

IF NOT? (responding to the part of your reply which is marked in bold red)

Last edited by PolyPhonic; 09-08-2012 at 02:57 PM.
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  #218  
Old 09-08-2012, 02:52 PM
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PolyPhonic PolyPhonic is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
You being the "cultured westerner" who would save them from themselves? Did you really mean to say such a thing? If so, your views are clearly those of a supremacist, and elitist, which is rather disgusting. While you indeed may be from a different culture than the locals, do not for a moment believe that you are more cultured, as in, more advanced, more sophisticated, or superior in any way -- nor that any of the local islanders would want to be "merged" with you for any reason other than to take your money and laugh at you behind your back.
In the meantime, I just have to say that I think you might have a an overly egalitarian view of things around you that don't apply to egalitarinism. It seems like you no longer have any sensible opinions because you've become jaded by egalitarianism. Like you're fighting for the right for pepper to be salt.

Have you heard of IQ? Is that a myth to you, a conspiracy?

Can everyone who picks coffee be an astronaut?

Have you heard of a book called "The Bell Curve"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve) Do you think that people, due to socio-economic factors, are equally sophisticated in the ghettos of Detroit as they are at Harvard?

Do you think that brains are just...equal? That there is no difference in how they develop around different behavior and environments?


Because you abhor people with opinions or outlooks different than yourself, you get to be a bigot towards them? Don't you think that's presumptuous of you? You come across as a zealot: everything you believe, is true. You're prejudiced.

Last edited by PolyPhonic; 09-08-2012 at 03:04 PM.
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  #219  
Old 09-08-2012, 03:09 PM
Vinccenzo Vinccenzo is offline
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OMG the smell just keeps ripening.............and anything less than pretending to not smell it is rude when dealing with people who believe they are genetically predetermined to lord over others. Its so cultured to think this way yet somehow also so naive and deserving of a good coddling?
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  #220  
Old 09-08-2012, 03:30 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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In response to my request for more respectful conversation (to quit fighting and talk about the issues):
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Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
So, request denied.
In response to my request to be more accepting of all different types of polyamory, not just those with which we agree:
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Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
Request denied.
These are both things that are laid out under the user guidelines of this forum, which I was trying to bring up in a respectful way to hopefully bring the discussion back on track. Since you are clearly refusing to do that, the discussion must now continue in other places.
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