Huge Problem likely Small Issue for your veterans, please help

[CielDuMatin]

Originally Posted by evanevans

What are you talking about? Absolutely not true. What did I say that made you think this? I'm sure I paraphrased something and it got taken in a different context or something, because that is completely not true about myself.

Well, for one thing, in the other thread you referred to poly folk as "more evolved" than mono folk. I notice that while you've answered most other posts in that thread, you have avoided the one where I commented on that. That doesn't seem terribly "open-minded" to me, to be honest, as I wrote in that other thread.

Look, so you had what was turning into the potential for a threesome - your girl was into that. Then you started pushing the idea of you with a bunch of women, of whom she was one. She doesn't go for that idea - she liked the idea of the sexual freedom, but not the member of a harem. The more you tried to cajole her and persuade her into thinking the way you did, the more she backed off, killing any chances of the threesome.

I don't know the specifics of what went on - truth is a three-edged sword and all that. Whatever happened, she wants a monogamous relationship with you, and is making it very obvious to you that this isn't negotiable. You could respect those wishes, and not try to be "selling" her on the idea of your fantasy. If polyamory is *your* bottom line, then the two of you are quite simply not compatible.

You said that you want a place with you a a few "girls" that you could "take care of" - and you said that they could have outside relationships (presumably sexual) with men, because you are not the jealous type - what would happen if your current partner decided that she wanted a man to live with you and her? Would you be fine with that too? (This last is kind of academic, since she has said that she isn't interested in that style of relationship)

[PolyPhonic]

Originally Posted by DarayTala

I learned many times along the way that you can't force things. People are unpredictable, with very varied and vast needs and desires, and those you love may not have the same desires as you. Those who have the same desires, may not be the people you end up getting close to. And above all, people are ever changing and growing beings, and just because your love and desires for a certain lifestyle match up for a time, doesn't mean they always will.

Absolutely. I agree. I'm not doing any pushing anymore, but on it's own my fiancee is making steps towards this and I'm sure that's because somewhere near the surface is the potential and that's probably what I've been sensing...a fissure. She surprised me tonight by telling me this "Unicorn" is going to spend the weekend with us so I just smiled and said "I like when I leave you to yourself."

Originally Posted by DarayTala

I would strongly advise that you focus not on your eventual goal of a household of women, but on meeting individuals and growing close to them. I found that when I focused on just building healthy relationships, that the rest fell into place in time.

That is such great advice. And as we all know it's so hard to find those healthy individuals.

Originally Posted by DarayTala

Also, you need to realize that these are individuals. They may like some of what you want, but not other parts.

Of course, yes. Although I am in my late thirties, I've gained a lot of relationship experience and I give the other person complete freedom. I may have tried to peddle ideas, but if they don't want it, that is their free choice.

Originally Posted by DarayTala

They will possibly want to date each other or other people outside of the household. In time you might find that you want that as well, even if you may not feel that way now. They may want to be the ones who help take care of you, not just be taken care of.

Super good points. I've brainstormed about some of those possibilities, but for you to say it makes me see the constant amorphous structure that is "real people".

Originally Posted by DarayTala

Some may not want children, or may already have children.

Yeah that's ok with me.

Originally Posted by DarayTala

Are you willing to develop healthy relationships and give these hypothetical women the freedom to grow and love in the ways they choose, even if it may not fall in line with your plan?

Completely. That is in my plans yes. Exit strategies for them.

Originally Posted by DarayTala

Can you compromise and give up some things for them, or change and negotiate with them?

Absolutely, if my core need(s) are being fulfilled than why not other less important things? Of course.

Originally Posted by DarayTala

You need honest and open communication, and the ability to compromise and work with a partner, not just be in charge and "take care of them". Can you do all that?

I can compromise. And I'm also extremely patient with and tolerant of others. I think that is because I am very fulfilled and secure inside already.

Originally Posted by DarayTala

Also, as far as you soon to be wife, talk to her. Talk frankly about what you want and how important it is to you, and why it is so important. If she does not want the same things, either one or both of you need to compromise and change, or you should end things. Its hard, I know, but its better than you both trying to force yourselves into a relationship that can't satisfy either of your needs and goals in life.

Ok yes, I just talked with her more as a matter of fact, as she asked me some more questions.

What was interesting was she wondered if she made me happy. She was apparently feeling like she isn't good enough for me. She asked "Don't I make you happy?" I said "Yes, you make me 100% happy with you. You are doing perfect. But honey, you can't have four boobies." That was my gentler way than saying "you don't have two pussies." But by the way, really my interest in another person is about affection and intimacy, not another pussy. I don't think with my penis. I have a big heart with what I believe to be limitless love, and it's sharing affection in a fun enjoyable way that I seek, without limits.

She seemed to understand and it calmed her nerves some. Her nerves flared up after she told me "I don't need anyone else to make me happy" and when I replied "Do you think that's what I think? That you are not enough to make me happy?" Despite how it reads here, it was actually a caring conversation, embracing each other in our cozy bed. A great way to talk softly about these intimate issues. And I'm skipping a lot of it for this post.

Originally Posted by DarayTala

I do hope you eventually find happiness and reach your goals and dreams.

Thanks. Living it!

[PolyPhonic]

Originally Posted by lovefromgirl

Bolding mine. I don't know if you realise what you're doing, but you use "girls" to describe the people you want to be intimate with throughout this thread. While you make it clear that you would like to take care of them, in the process you've also implied that they're not supposed to be fully-grown and able to take care of themselves. I'll be generous and assume that's not how you meant it, but the language you choose to describe them to us has its own context.

Perhaps you should choose your words just as carefully in English as you say you have to in Spanish.

-- A Woman

Thanks! I never thought of that. I will spend some time in self reflection on that, and see if there is something to that! Really appreciate you noticing that.

My thoughts right now on that are that I just mean I would find "girls" who are more into not working, enjoying life, having fun, and seeking out each day as a new adventure. And so, I would support them so they could enjoy that. It's more of a gift than me being a rescuer.

But I will think about that... deeply.

[PolyPhonic]

Originally Posted by CielDuMatin

Well, for one thing, in the other thread you referred to poly folk as "more evolved" than mono folk. I notice that while you've answered most other posts in that thread, you have avoided the one where I commented on that. That doesn't seem terribly "open-minded" to me, to be honest, as I wrote in that other thread.

Ohhhhhhh, so this has just been a projection of your own frustration with me not giving that attention and now spiraling it into that I am avoiding it because I either disagree or can't see the other way.

No no, I intend to answer that soon. I have it in my email, I have just been doing a lot of things today. I did a photo shoot with some models at the beach, and I've been processing photos, plus dinner, putting my kids to bed, etc. Don't worry, I'm going to respond to that.

Originally Posted by CielDuMatin

Look, so you had what was turning into the potential for a threesome - your girl was into that.

Right.

Originally Posted by CielDuMatin

Then you started pushing the idea of you with a bunch of women, of whom she was one.

Ok and I think it's worthy of mentioning now again that that "line" was a light sprinkle of something I mentioned, like as I said before it's not what I'm actually trying to sell to her.

Originally Posted by CielDuMatin

She doesn't go for that idea - she liked the idea of the sexual freedom, but not the member of a harem.

Well, not completely as you describe. We really just let the harem idea go, and have been talking about more grounded ideas.

Originally Posted by CielDuMatin

The more you tried to cajole her and persuade her into thinking the way you did, the more she backed off, killing any chances of the threesome.

Yep, that is true. I also noticed that while she is feeling emotional, the idea of any of this becomes very negative to her. But taking the advice of the initial respondant to my initial post, giving her some time to get out of the "nervous breakdown" mode, and then discussing when it can be done more naturally, she again becomes amenable to the threesome adventure.

Originally Posted by CielDuMatin

I don't know the specifics of what went on - truth is a three-edged sword and all that. Whatever happened, she wants a monogamous relationship with you, and is making it very obvious to you that this isn't negotiable. You could respect those wishes, and not try to be "selling" her on the idea of your fantasy. If polyamory is *your* bottom line, then the two of you are quite simply not compatible.

Ok, true. Although this growth has flowered during my relationship with her. It was just a bud before that for 2 years or more. So I have not had an opportunity to be poly yet. If I was not in a monogamous relationship I could see if poly is right for me. Though I've gone on record here saying that I'm fairly certain I am a poly, I am still a poly virgin and I think it's a good idea for my fiancee and I to do whatever she is comfortable with allowing me, so I can see how it sits with me, and her. I hear this kind of "trying" destroys relationships. But nothing less is possible right now. And she is interested in this "Unicorn" on her own accord, more than I am actually (I have a dozen other girls who I give as much weight, I'm not targeting this other girl), so I think if we can be comfortable experimenting with that, than I can start to feel out how important it is to me without it being conjecture.

Originally Posted by CielDuMatin

You said that you want a place with you a a few "girls" that you could "take care of" - and you said that they could have outside relationships (presumably sexual) with men, because you are not the jealous type - what would happen if your current partner decided that she wanted a man to live with you and her? Would you be fine with that too? (This last is kind of academic, since she has said that she isn't interested in that style of relationship)

Right. Nah, I'm not into male energy. I like being around women. It's not just sexual. I was raised by a single mother, and was a momma's boy for most of my 20s. I went through a lot to grow out of that, and be healthy, but I still have no interest in football, baseball, sports, hitting the gym, drinking beer, etc. I like being romantic, I like being affectionate, I like talking about feelings and relationships, I could go on and on, but the point is I like having relationships with women and by that I mean friendships, time spent, etc. Obviously I can stick my penis in them and make babies etc, but that's NOT why I like them more than men. So for me, we're talking girls only. I'm ok with playing with other guys in the same session, but not living together. But hey, you never know.

[CielDuMatin]

Originally Posted by evanevans

Ohhhhhhh, so this has just been a projection of your own frustration with me not giving that attention and now spiraling it into that I am avoiding it because I either disagree or can't see the other way.

Er... it was snowmelt, not me, that asked the question here - I was merely giving an opinion based on your responses in the other thread.

Originally Posted by evanevans

Nah, I'm not into male energy. I like being around women. It's not just sexual. I was raised by a single mother, and was a momma's boy for most of my 20s. I went through a lot to grow out of that, and be healthy, but I still have no interest in football, baseball, sports, hitting the gym, drinking beer, etc. I like being romantic, I like being affectionate, I like talking about feelings and relationships, I could go on and on, but the point is I like having relationships with women and by that I mean friendships, time spent, etc. Obviously I can stick my penis in them and make babies etc, but that's NOT why I like them more than men. So for me, we're talking girls only. I'm ok with playing with other guys in the same session, but not living together. But hey, you never know.

Yes, yes, I understand what YOU want - I am asking what happens if one (or more) of the women that you have set up a home with want to include a man in the home, too - you don't have to do anything with them, but they would like him to live in the house with you. What if it is what*they* want - is that ok with you?

[BoringGuy]

OP, I'm sorry to interrupt, but the question begs to be asked:

You say you have 6 kids. One of them is the 4-month-old baby from this current fiancée/wife/wife-to-be/babbymomma who speaks/understands very little English.

You referred to putting your kids (plural) to bed. That tells us that you have at least one child from at least one other woman living with you, in addition to the new baby and its mother.

Where are all the other children and/or mothers of all your other children? How do THEY fit in with the hopes and dreams which you have shared with us here on this forum? How would you expect all these incoming "girls" to relate to your ALREADY EXISTING children and babbymommas?

I am guessing that you have a whole chapter in your notebook (or perhaps even a separate notebook) dedicated to addressing the logistics and other aspects of this dynamic. I'm sure you've thought about it in great detail and have it all planned out.

I bet I'm not the only person here who is curious about this. I look forward to finding out your answer.

[PolyPhonic]

Originally Posted by BoringGuy

You say you have 6 kids. Where are all the other children and/or mothers of all your other children? How do THEY fit in with the hopes and dreams which you have shared with us here on this forum? How would you expect all these incoming "girls" to relate to your ALREADY EXISTING children and babbymommas?

Hey, thanks for noticing Ok, here's the whole love arc of my life and how children factor in:

Finding Love Accidentally:
I was a late bloomer. I lost my virginity when I was 21. That's not because I wasn't desirable, it was because since I was 9 years old I would sit in front of my computers and musical keyboards and create music non-stop. I was dedicated to my craft of writing music for movies. In fact as desirability goes, the night I lost my virginity was to a woman I was helping with her IKEA furniture, and she came on to me quite strongly. I thought she was married but she told me she broke up. I did find her cute, but I was raised to be respectful and she was not a candidate for feelings for me. But when she said it was ok by passionately attacking me, I went along for the experience. We were together for 9 months and traveled Europe together. It was a great first sexual relationship. Later I would learn that she was a nymphomaniac, and that it wasn't normal for a woman to want to have sex 3-6 times per day. Suffice to say I was happy. We broke up and I again continued to focus on my music career.

I wanted sex after that though, and I was very much a romantic so I craved a partner again. So I was courting girls, but I was not in the dating scene. I wasn't searching. I was just open and able. I would chat up girls who worked in the building I was in. I had no skills in picking up girls.

I got a call one night from a woman who moved to LA and wanted to ask me questions about my career field because she was thinking about pursuing the same. I asked if she had any friends here, she said no, so I said "let's meet up". We coordinated what in retrospect became a first date, and I adored her at first sight. Since I was simply open and able, any attention at this point felt right. I would learn in 10+ years from then that it's also important to think about your needs. However, she liked me and I liked her and we decided to spend the rest of our lives together. And so...

1st Engagement and Marriage:
I was married for 10 years, the first 3 of which felt solid, then 4 more years of counseling and than 3 years of living together but figuring out what the hell I was supposed to do because I didn't believe in divorce, I believed in working things out and holding to your original promises. I was fortunate in the end to hear that she admitted she never really loved me, that she married me to see if she would fall in love with me. What a sigh of relief that was for me because it meant I wouldn't break any of my promises to divorce. We had 3 kids together (probably the three times we had sex, lol). She was super tantric, a yoga person, very spiritual, and that really got in the way of enjoying our physical relationship. So our relationship was very much a meta-relationship, a superlayer relationship created out of meeting of concepts. But I craved a directly connected relationship not one based on spirituality. Something human.

Separation:
When we separated (pre official stamped divorce), I said I wanted the kids and the house, and she said ok. In retrospect now, that was probably due to some guilt on her part, but her own family disowned her and everyone thought she abandoned her children. That was not the case at all. Our separation was amicable, we were both level headed people and we never even said the word jealous in our relationship. I never knew of the concept. Point is, she was still a good mom, I just gave her the opportunity to get on her feet, have time to build some career opportunities, and the kids visited her every other weekend.

Dating:
I proceeded to care for my kids for 4 straight years in that arrangement, while starting up with online dating, going to nightclubs, parties, events, mingling. It became necessary to hire a live-in nanny. I screwed that up when I thought it would be a great idea to find a young attractive one, and that turned into disaster where I had to buy her a plane ticket back home one night in a deal to ward off pressing charges. Not that I ever touched her, but lines had been crossed and she wouldn't have any of it (rightly so).

I got another Nanny, Japanese, very respectful, but also cute, adventurous (sky jumper) and flirtatious (oh no). So I set a big boundary line with her in my mind and never looked back or thought about crossing it. I trained myself to keep her off limits.

I continued on the dating scene, formed a great non-sexual but intimate relationship with a girl, and that lasted for 14 months and was only ended because someone I met wanted to be exclusive.

During that time I was dating some girls mostly from online, but I was also meeting girls around LA having been mingling at parties and events and such. So I was getting out of my office, our of my hole, and starting to get a feel for real world dating, socializing and relationships.

My whole life it appears has been about opening up slowly.

Ok so, I befriended a woman who in Beverly Hills and Hollywood circles was seen as one of the 10s of the community. A gorgeous latina woman who basically liked to be arm candy to guys at parties.

We went to Vegas on a whim and hit it off, and I was thrilled to be in a relationship with such a beautiful, desired, female. After 1 month of dating, she asked if she could move in with me, and for me to cutoff the very close friendship (which was also intimate but non-sexual) with that girl I mentioned above. It was a tough decision, but I wasn't a secure person fully. I was confident, but I was probably only about 85% full when it came to my glass of self-esteem. So I said ok, and I chose the 10.

2nd Engagement:
We got engaged, and her kid from a previous marriage moved in with us. His father was a dead-beat so I put the kid in the best schools and he was the same age as my oldest son so they got along and went to the same schools. I payed for and cared for her child as my own.

Breakup of Engagement:
However it turned out this "10" was cheating on me and I didn't know it. After several times when she punched me, scratched me, threw things at me, and verbally abused me, I finally had to push her out of the house like a mule. While she was gone I found 7 engagement rings in a box in her closet and I called her other boyfriends and they had no idea she was cheating with all the other ones. Her "motis oparendi" was to create a fight about something, leave for a few days and come back saying she was all better after spending time with her mom.

So that was about 8 months of descending hell.

Dating Vengeance:
After that I started dating with a veangance. After learning about Hugh Hefner and how he started his poly concepts after his wife cheating on him, it makes me wonder if all my poly-ness is a reaction to women cheating on me. It's an intellectual thought I have, but I don't feel it's true. But one day I'll spend some time meditating on it.

Anyway, in what seemed to be a great liberation, I went on a tirade. I even specifically tried to date girls with the same name as her in the beginning so I could erase her as a stigma in my mind. That actually worked. As I gained lot's of relationship experience, I started to gain wisdom, confidence, and a better understanding of what man and women is all about.

Becoming Complete:
I really started to gain relationship clarity, learned to love myself, and to get in touch with not just what I was able to do, but what I wanted.

During this time I started to feel like I wanted to find a life partner again, because I preferred to have someone I was living with, rather than going out every couple of nights and having fun occasionally at home.

But through my wisdom on relationships I also felt hopeless that I would find a woman with the good standards I felt were necessary. I had high standards for a woman with a great heart.

Magic:
I fell in love with a friend of a friend who didn't speak a word of English, but through translation I could tell she had a beautiful heart. And she was beautiful physically, and she had a calm nature about her which really felt good after having had a tumultuous live-in partner last time.

We moved in together in 1 month (I still had my kids living with me at this time), and got pregnant on month 3. We decided to ditch LA and move to the Caribbean, to a beautiful island.

While here, I had a strong monogamous magnetism to her. However, the original promise of a threesome led me to start pointing out girls we could play with. This igniting the topic and feelings inside me.

[B[That's the story[/B]
We had our baby, and the rest I pretty much filled in in my other posts.

Visitations
My original 3 kids now are on another arrangement. I asked my ex if she would mind taking care of them for a few years, taking a turn. So now the kids visit me for the summer each one for different lengths of time depending on school or not (so 2-4 months), plus Winter Break, and Thanksgiving and Spring breaks.

We had to leave her child behind in Los Angeles with his father, and while here in the Caribbean we were reunited with her daughter who she had left as a baby with her mom when she came to the USA.

The Poly "Bug"
But alas, all this is up in the air, because I have opened up bigger than monogamy itself. And this is a very new, virgin area for me and of course for her. But for me, it feels completely natural and lines up with how I was when I was a kid, my whole life. I am getting in touch with something that already existed inside.

[PolyPhonic]

Originally Posted by CielDuMatin

Er... it was snowmelt, not me, that asked the question here - I was merely giving an opinion based on your responses in the other thread.

Oh haha. Ok sorry about that.

Originally Posted by CielDuMatin

Yes, yes, I understand what YOU want - I am asking what happens if one (or more) of the women that you have set up a home with want to include a man in the home, too - you don't have to do anything with them, but they would like him to live in the house with you. What if it is what*they* want - is that ok with you?

Probably not. It would be rare that they find someone as mature as myself and I wouldn't want to de-stabilize what's already so hard to maintain. But if a real poly guru showed up, than yeah, no prob. But if it's still the case where I am the one as the most mature pillar of strength in the house, than I cannot have my place as that support system threatened. I have been with enough women to know how important it is to keep them in the zone. I'm very good at providing that for them. That is one of the attractions women have with me. It's not about being selfish, it's about being smart. Where I live there are no men like me. None. I know everyone on this island or at least each person's friend, or at least I am aware of anyone I haven't personally met. There are no men like me, or you, or anyone with such a developed conscience.

[nycindie]

Omigosh, I just spit Diet Coke all over my keyboard!

[PolyPhonic]

Originally Posted by nycindie

Omigosh, I just spit Diet Coke all over my keyboard!

Hahahaha why? lol