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  #11  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:43 AM
Petunia Petunia is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
More often than not, I have found that deep disappointment comes from holding very high expectations - of ourselves, of life, of those around us. Most of the time, those expectations are unrealistic.

For example, Petunia, you have a picture in your mind of what it should look like if your fiance is as excited about marrying you as you are about marrying him. He should "light up" when you walk in the room. Then, when you walk into the room and he doesn't light up the way you expect him to, you feel deflated. Your reaction is to interpret that as him not feeling as excited about getting married as you are, an assumption which is most probably completely and totally incorrect. Just because he doesn't fit your picture of how "excited" should look on him, doesn't mean he isn't feeling excited. He is his own person with his own way of processing and expressing his feelings. But you blame his "non-excitement" on his NRE and gf rather than looking at your expectations. Disappointment prevails and you start feeling jealousy, which is always a cover for other emotions we don't want to own up to.

You say, "He's trying to be what I need him to be, but his focus isn't really here with me." And you're disappointed. But until recently, it was okay for you to waffle about getting married and not be as on board as he was, right? Now that you turned it around, you "need him to be" in exactly the same place you are. I would hazard a guess that there's a part of you that really likes being in control, or in charge, probably because it gives you a sense of security (albeit a false one). It's kind of like being a little addicted to power. As long as the relationship was going along with the parameters you set, that was okay. You effectively controlled your fiance's behavior with your fears and insecurities, and now you feel more secure about marrying him and have flipped over to being okay with this or that thing that you weren't before, you want him to flip his attitude too. "Hey, I'm on board now, you get on board, too!" So now you're upset that he seems to be in a different place than you -- which does not meet your heavy expectations -- and you find yourself in turmoil, wrapped up in jealousy, and feeling powerless. You want things the way you want them, but he has a different process than you and is probably (understandably) being cautious and hesitant to get excited about anything because he got used to navigating around your insecurities.

You cannot work on him, or his gf. You can only work on yourself. If I were you, I would examine and deconstruct all your expectations.

You may find the following useful. It is from The Handbook to Higher Consciousness, a classic on personal growth by Ken Keyes:
". . . no one has yet found happiness by using our emotion-backed desires as guides. Flashes of pleasure, yes. Happiness, no.

. . . Our wants and desires are so seductive. They masquerade as "needs" that must be satisfied so we can be happy at last. They lead from one illusion of happiness to another.

. . . We tell ourselves, "If only I could find the right person to love, then I would be happy." So we search for someone who our addictions tell us is the right person -- and we experience some pleasurable moments. But since we don't know how to love, the relationship gradually deteriorates. Then we decide we didn't have the right person after all! As we grow into higher consciousness, we discover that it is more important to be the right person than to find the right person.

We must deeply understand why all of our negative emotions are misleading guides to effective action in life situations. Our negative emotions are simply the result of an extensive pattern of scars and wounds we have experienced. . . . It saps your energy to be worried or anxious about a problem. Do what you can do but don't be addicted to the results or you will create more worry for yourself.

. . . as we reach physical maturity and our biocomputer (brain) is able to function more perceptively, we have all the power we need. But our biocomputer (backed up by the full repertory of our emotions) is still programmed to compensate for the power deficiency we experienced when we were infants and young children. We now need to learn to flow with the people and things around us. But our power addiction keeps us from loving people because we perceive them as objects that may threaten our power, prestige, or pecking order. If we want to love and be loved, we can't be addicted to power -- or to anything else.

As conscious beings, the only thing we need to find happiness in life is to perceive clearly who we are (not the social roles we are acting out), and exactly what are the real conditions, here and now, of our lives. How basically simple is our problem! But to achieve this clear perception of ourselves and the world around us takes constant inner work. And this means developing the habit of emotionally accepting whatever is here and now in our lives. For only an emotionally calm biocomputer can see clearly and wisely, and come up with effective ways to interact with people and situations."
Thanks, nycindie. You had a lot of good points.

I know that he's not as excited, because he's told me he's not as excited as he once was. I take the full blame on this as I've pulled him emotionally from one extreme to another and it's a tall order to expect him to be right there with me.

What I'd like is to feel that he's wholeheartedly with me when we're together. That is not there lately and I believe it's due to NRE. We need to work on being present in the moment - both of us. To push off external distractions and be with the one we're with.

As far as "lighting up" goes, yes, I believe you're right. I would love for him to acknowledge me in some manner when I come home from work. He's never been good at this. So, yes, disappointment. And yes, it's been discussed.

I have never had my self-esteem so striped as it is presently. I've done a lot of owning my own shit and working on stuff this summer. I have not cut myself any slack. I laid myself bare. I used to feel good about myself and certain of who I was, but that seems to be missing now.

Control: I used to be the one in charge. I have been turning that over to him for the past 20 months since we adopted a D/s dynamic. I have recently asked him if we can drop some of that as I was always failing him. I'm not much of a masochist and he's fairly sadistic. His perception was that I would tolerate more from others that I played with than I would from him. The shame and hurt over disappointing him were too much to add on top of the other stuff I was owning, so for now we're limiting the BDSM.

Not being on board about getting married was not okay with me. I started therapy over it. The days were flying by bringing the date closer and closer and I needed help sorting things out.

I don't mean to make him sound like a bad man. He's not. He's really pretty damn great.

The parameters we set up were broad, IMO. No limits on how deep our feelings could go. No limits on sexual things. Just no D/s for me with anyone other than him. I could only date on the nights he was out of town for work. He could date on days/nights he was not on the road as that's the only time available to him, and if he had something planned, then I was free to do the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NovemberRain View Post
You don't just have an unhappy groom. You my dear, are (right now) a very unhappy bride. Plane tickets are shitty reason to go through with something you have doubts about. There's cold feet, and there's serious issues. A baby is a hugely serious issue. My sister was all starting on in vitro, and hooked up with an old love, and guess what? They got pregnant. They are together, but as far as i know, they have yet to marry.

You said in your blog that you have a therapist, is she no help? She should be helping you in interrupting the thought patterns you're sick of; she should be offering new questions to help you think clearly.

So sorry you're hurting.
I'm totally past not wanting to get married.

My therapist is great, but 60 minutes once a week doesn't balance out the other 10,079. I've covered a LOT of ground since I started seeing her. She's actually been rather amazed with how effective we are at tackling issues. This may break our track record.
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  #12  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:57 AM
Petunia Petunia is offline
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Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
They not having a clue about how emotional having a baby/parenting is? That's they journey to discover. As all new parents do.
I'm saying that they don't have the perspective like I do because they haven't gone down that road yet. I see it as a threat, because of my perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
If you are worried about having a place in that family unit and want one? What are you waiting for? Talk to both of them and offer what you have to offer. "Hey. Awesome baby! So I'm willing to help out. Call me a (babysitter? godmother? aunt? grandmother? what sort of inclusion are you hoping for there? Or no inclusions at ALL but wanting him to be PRESENT with you too? Sort it out. Then TALK it out with your peeps.)

You ASK for a role, if that is what you desire.
It's kind of hard to ask for a role when Twitch doesn't even know if he's going to have a role. I'm not sure I want a role. All I know if that I don't want to be excluded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
She is not a mindreader. Neither is he.
Twitch and I have spoken about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
Uh huh. So how does keeping connection strong WITHOUT full disclosure of your thoughts work? You wrote that blog entry July 27. It sounds like you have spent 2 weeks making yourself and him nuts.

Just take the bull by the horns and ASK if this is possible, that you WANT to be included if allowed to be.

Negotiate, work it out. Even if the answer is NO, then you can relax some and move forward rather than doing the "what if" limbo thing and making yourself feel all UGH. Because then you are on solid ground again -- in the YES place or in the NO place. And not in frozen Hang Time -- trying to stand on air and struggling.

GL!

GG
Trying to stand on air and struggling. Good one.
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  #13  
Old 08-13-2012, 03:02 AM
Petunia Petunia is offline
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I've spent time today reading through sections of Opening Up again and here is an important take away I jotted down to hang onto.

I need to separate myself from my partner's desires and relationships that don't involve me, because they are not about me.

[...]

It is not a comment on our relationship, and it's not about replacing me.
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  #14  
Old 08-13-2012, 05:58 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I'm saying that they don't have the perspective like I do because they haven't gone down that road yet. I see it as a threat, because of my perspective.
Again... and that is their journey to discover. It's not a threat to you. You are making it a threat to you because it is an Unknown right now and you are what iffing it to all kinds of shapes.


I need to separate myself from my partner's desires and relationships that don't involve me, because they are not about me.


Quote:
It's kind of hard to ask for a role when Twitch doesn't even know if he's going to have a role. I'm not sure I want a role. All I know if that I don't want to be excluded.
So? You go "Alright. I know Twitch doesn't even know if he's going to have a role, GF. That's all between you guys to sort out. I respect that. But I want it known that if you allow him to have a role... I also would welcome being included in this baby's extended family network if you are open to that. Know I am open to having that kind of a talk even if nobody knows what form/shape yet this will all end up to be yet."

(If that is actually what you feel.)

GG

Last edited by GalaGirl; 08-13-2012 at 06:00 AM.
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  #15  
Old 08-13-2012, 03:00 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Things seem to have veered off little from the three specific questions you asked.

Here's how I interpreted what you wrote. You had plans to get married he was excited and enthusiastic about the idea of marrying you. You pushed this new lifestyle ... he took to it quickly. His thoughts on marriage shifted from the initial conversation and then certainly in regards to his feeling for his new partner. And also maybe the logic of marriage got lost there . His new single partner is talking about having a child, parenthood. You know all to well the complexities of that world. The speed and the amount of change that's occurred in such a short space of time is disconcerting. It seems very natural to pick apart the negative trend lines and extrapolate future events, especially around the topic having a baby. And the regret of having caused this on yourself seems very understandable.


On one hand the relationships are separate and independent of one another. On the other hand everything is connected and interwoven ,ala "its a wonderful life ", compersion, the expansion of love.

The question is to have this new lifestyle what are you willing to give up, or invest. Whats the risk of loss. How much loss can you tolerate. A percentage or total. If you played with scenarios could you be secondaries to each other (if you believe in a hierarchical model).
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  #16  
Old 08-13-2012, 09:54 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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A couple thoughts-not in specific order regarding your posts with a small amount of history (more can be found in my blog or you are MORE than welcome to PM me anytime).

1. NRE is a reality and you can't make it disappear, but it does wear off. It IS temporary.

I have children. My boyfriend co-parents them with my husband and I. The youngest is biologically my boyfriend's child, but she calls my husband daddy (the truth of her biology is NOT secret).

Never, not one time has there been an issue with having other people take on meaningful roles with my kids.
The oldest child is 20. My ex-girlfriend (dated when child was 2) remains a meaningful part of my daughters life-albeit we lost contact between the two of us, 15 years ago, for 14 years.
My sister is an "alternate mommy" to all of my kids. They call her auntie-but anyone who see's them together can tell that she's MORE than "just an aunt". And-she's not REALLY my sister, she was my best friend in school and it got easier to say "sister" when we were grown instead of explaining because our relationship is clearly more than JUST friends.

THUS:
2. If you are interested in the OPTION of being a meaningful person in this child's life-just tell the girlfriend. Tell her honestly that right now you are a mess of emotions, with a wedding to plan, counseling to work through, NRE (of theirs) to work through and insecurities-but that you know how precious and important this baby will be in her life and if there is ANYTHING you can do to be supportive and helpful-you are interested in making that effort;
because most of the "issues" you list, are temporary issues that "when the weather passes" won't matter. But, a baby will be around for years.



3. Give yourself a break. You have a lot of stress on your plate. Good or bad, its all still stress-so don't punish yourself for finding it overwhelming.

4. Identify one thing that would be reassuring for you RIGHT NOW. And ask for it. Maybe-as our counselor suggested, give him 3 suggestions and just ask him to pick one and make it happen.
Like... a cuddle night with a romantic movie that he picks-that expresses his feelings for you.
A letter about why/what he loves about you personally.
A cd he makes with songs that make him think of you.

5. This one may be odd to some people, but its worked AMAZINGLY well for me-inquire with her if you could have a "friendly date" with her to go for a walk, hike, bike, shopping trip. NOT TO TALK ABOUT THE SITUATION. Just to be friendly and meet her AS THE REAL PERSON SHE IS, so you can remind yourself that whilst emotions are high-she's still just her.

*having a baby IS a huge thing. But, my daughters father and I had her-and he bailed after 2 months. Completely NOT in love with her or being a daddy.

My boyfriend is madly in love with our daughter but has deep compersion of the amazingly deep, loving relationship she and my husband have-they bonded closer than my husband did with ANY of his own biological children.

That huge thing-could work out completely differently than the way you envision it. So remind yourself-you can NOT predict the future. When you start "envisioning what ifs"-you are trying to predict the future. Get back to NOW-focus on NOW. What is great NOW.

6. Weddings... I haven't met a man who was as "excited" about the PLANNING of a wedding as a woman. I don't know exactly why-but every man I know who is madly in love with their wife and happy to be married-was "so so" when it came to the wedding plans. His reactions to the wedding plans are not necessarily telling regarding his feelings about your RELATIONSHIP.

HUGS. It sucks to be caught up in so much negative emotion and fear.
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  #17  
Old 08-13-2012, 10:39 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Great points, LR!

I esp like #4 as it could apply to my life -- I have to squirrel that nugget away for ME.

GG
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  #18  
Old 08-14-2012, 12:04 AM
bingshari bingshari is offline
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Hi Petunia. Your situation sounds very tricky and very stressful. Compounded by the stress of an impending marriage. I share some of your issues, in that my wife is in the throws of NRE with our GF, and I have struggled with envy and jealousy. I am proud to say that I have come leaps and bounds from where I was. I think all the advice you have been given is very sound and intelligent. Here is my two cents to the conversation:

I finally had the realization that I was so wrapped up in my own fears, needs, and wants...along with my desire to maintain the power I have in my primary relationship, that I was making myself an emotional basket case. I have all those issues of envy and even jealousy because I do not have the same intense relationship with our GF that my wife does. But you know what? I became so wrapped up in my own shit that I did not stop to think or consider the needs, wants, and fears of the other two women in my life that I love. The reality is....I wan this poly relationship...this triad. And if I truly want it, then I have to remember that there are three individuals involved with their own needs and wants...not just me. Yes my stuff is important, but it should not be the focus of everyone else all the time. I am in primary in this relationship, but my two loves deserve equal consideration. It was time for me to stop being so self consumed.

Now, I realize that your relationship is more of a V, but still....in a poly relationship, everyone needs to be considered. Maybe there is a way for the three of you to discuss your wants, needs, and fears together in order to negotiate some sort of agreement that works for all. As far as the NRE goes....you are going to have to roll with it. It lasts as long as it lasts. If you really want and trust this relationship, you have to be willing to ride it out. Eventually, things will cool down enough for everyone to find balance again. Definitely voice your concerns and your needs....but at the same time....ask your fiancee what he needs and wants. Sometimes in dealing with our own anti-compersion, we forget to check in with the other person/people. You might be surprised.

Either way....I wish you luck and I hope you guys work it out.
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