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  #31  
Old 07-23-2012, 07:41 PM
ViableAlternative ViableAlternative is offline
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Originally Posted by Emm View Post
If you think it's all "freaking sad" perhaps you should stop projecting.
I've gotta agree here....

Bear in mind, mercury, that posts you find on a forum commonly used for seeking help or advice are often.... seeking help or advice.

If, as someone with new or limited experience in fixing cars, you peruse a forum full of experienced automotive technicians, it's likely that you're seeking to find an answer regarding why your car is broken and advice in how to fix it. If, as someone new in practicing polyamory, you peruse forum full of experienced polyamory practicioners, it probably isn't because you have absolutely no problems to work out in your relationships.

The people NOT having trouble with their relationships, but still reading forums (or practicing polyamory and NOT reading forums) aren't going to be posting things stating "We're all getting along! Oh no, what should we do?!"

Y'know?
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  #32  
Old 07-23-2012, 07:48 PM
ViableAlternative ViableAlternative is offline
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And, just a thought, but I don't really think it's "freaking sad" to see people posting asking for help resolving an issue - even (or especially) if it's THEIR OWN issue with acceptance of someone in a partner's life.

Also, just to be especially clear, I don't mean to be picking on you, mercury. Honestly. I just think you might not have considered the ways it might NOT be "sad" to see so many people seeking help with something. Maybe it's just plain good for them to BE seeking help, instead of floundering, right?
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  #33  
Old 07-23-2012, 07:59 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Honestly, very few people seem happy with their poly situations. I think most people on this board would love it if they were poly but their partner was only with them.
Well, please count me
as another who is quite happy with their poly situation. I would actually love it if my partners had more than me, but one doesn't want to, and the other hasn't been able to find anyone that clicks with her yet.

I know several other friends who are also quite content with their poly situations.

I mean, could things be better? Usually, yes, but that's the same for everyone, mono and poly alike. That doesn't mean that I am not content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
I'm not saying I wouldn't feel or be the same way if I were poly. Just saying....this is what poly is, and it's freaking sad.
This may be what you have experienced, but it's not the reality for a lot of folks.

People tend to come to forums when they have problems, looking for advice, help, or just a shoulder to try on. There are a large number of poly folk out there who never post on a forum - they are out there just getting on with it.

I think that drawing any conclusions based on forum posts is inaccurate at best.
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  #34  
Old 07-23-2012, 08:30 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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I see what you are all saying, and I understand your point. But the thing is, I don't think poly people who don't post on message boards seeking advice and help are "happy," either.

I post on a general relationships and dating board full of mono people, too, and the people there say the same things, "We're messed up here, but people not on message boards are doing just fine."

That's not true. Even people who don't ever post on message boards have extreme relationship problems. They just happen not to be the personality types that go on message boards. I was in a relationship for five years that had all kinds of problems, and I never came to a message board for advice.

Hence, no, poly people not here are not doing "just fine." Poly and mono relationships have major problems. I mean, pretty much EVERY interaction I have with poly (not just here) has some crazy jealousy issue. My recent guy pen pal was a polyamorous guy who said everything was hunky dory but then he let it spill that one woman was upset because she saw vacation photos of him and his other woman. (That's an oft-heard thing: "She saw the Facebook photos and got jealous!"

Mono relationships have troubles and issues, too; I'm not saying they don't. When a mono girl talks about her mother-in-law: "I don't like her" "She's bossy" "She's controlling"...etc., it sounds just as bad as poly women going on and on about how her husband's partner is "controlling" "a drama queen."

Mono relationship problems like "I wish he would call me more" or "He hasn't been paying enough attention to me" or "He's not sure if he wants to commit" don't strike me as being AS petty because those types aren't two women being catty to each other. They're still kinda unpleasant to hear about and for the people to experience, but I'm not disgusted because it's not female cattiness.

In short, don't think of yourselves as troubled poly couples while the non-message-board poly couples are doing just fine. They're not better at being poly than you are. They have the same issues. Just as non-message-board mono couples have the same issues as message-board mono people. It's not an insult; it's just the truth.

Last edited by mercury; 07-23-2012 at 08:49 PM.
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  #35  
Old 07-23-2012, 08:39 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViableAlternative View Post
And, just a thought, but I don't really think it's "freaking sad" to see people posting asking for help resolving an issue - even (or especially) if it's THEIR OWN issue with acceptance of someone in a partner's life.

Also, just to be especially clear, I don't mean to be picking on you, mercury. Honestly. I just think you might not have considered the ways it might NOT be "sad" to see so many people seeking help with something. Maybe it's just plain good for them to BE seeking help, instead of floundering, right?
I agree it's not wrong for people to post about their poly relationship struggles and difficulties. People do need to reach out for help when they need it. What I'm saying is that the content of the posts saddens\ me. I wish women could just like each other more. When you stop to think about how bad it is to fight over a man, even subtly, it's just...wrong. Women are supposed to be in solidarity. We are united by gender, and I don't like all the "I don't like her" and "She's trouble."

She's your sister in this patriarchal world.

So you see, it's not the "help seeking" that bothers me. It's the letting a man make you see some other woman as an enemy when she's not.

I would hate to be in a poly situation in which the other woman and I clearly didn't like each other and every time one of us was with the guy alone, we were saying things like "I don't like her (the other woman)" to the guy. At the very least, I'd want a situation where we're kinda neutral to each other. Best case scenario, friends or friendly.

But I implore you all, even if he is your husband of 15-25 years, stop hating on other women. I don't think she's as bad as you're making her out to be. She's just a woman who has relationship needs like any other woman.

Don't let yourselves fight over men...

Try looking at things differently occasionally. Instead of "my husband." Think...your fellow woman.

And thank you for saying that you're not picking on me. I know what I said was a little inflammatory. But....it's true. I actually was being a bit that way myself recently. But I gave myself a check recently and said...no. I'm not going to make some woman the enemy because of a man.
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  #36  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:21 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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I never said that EVERYONE who doesn't post is just hunky-dory - just saying that those who DO post tend to be the ones with troubles, and to extrapolate that to a statement about the whole population is fallacious, since posters tend to not be a representative cross-section of the poly population.

You may well have had some person experiences that back up your hypothesis, I am just giving you that from my experience there are quite a lot of poly folk out there who are making it work very well for them. Trying to broaden your sample size a little
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  #37  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:24 PM
ViableAlternative ViableAlternative is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
I see what you are all saying, and I understand your point. But the thing is, I don't think poly people who don't post on message boards seeking advice and help are "happy," either.
I am not posting on a polyamory message board seeking advice. Uhh, I never HAVE sought polyamory advice on message boards, actually (but am delighted to lurk and learn from others' experiences, and have an opportunity to grow from the advice they receive, even as they do!). Are you submitting that I am also not happy? Because your statements read as though you honestly believe that ALL polyamorous folk (women specifically?) are not happy. If that's the case, then I guess we're looking at a glass-half-empty/glass-half-full sort of thing, and just won't agree - which is okay too, I guess.

Quote:
I post on a general relationships and dating board full of mono people, too, and the people there say the same things, "We're messed up here, but people not on message boards are doing just fine."

That's not true. Even people who don't ever post on message boards have extreme relationship problems. They just happen not to be the personality types that go on message boards. I was in a relationship for five years that had all kinds of problems, and I never came to a message board for advice.
See, this all really does read to me as "You/We are ALL screwed in our relationships, no matter what, period, the end", and, maybe my glass is just half full, but I can't (won't?) believe that as truth.

Quote:
Hence, no, poly people not here are not doing "just fine." Poly and mono relationships have major problems. I mean, pretty much EVERY interaction I have with poly (not just here) has some crazy jealousy issue. My recent guy pen pal was a polyamorous guy who said everything was hunky dory but then he let it spill that one woman was upset because she saw vacation photos of him and his other woman. (That's an oft-heard thing: "She saw the Facebook photos and got jealous!"
I.... have sincerely ENJOYED seeing my boyfriend's vacation photos on his Facebook. While he and his wife were gone, the wife's boyfriend and I did some home repair work on their house. The wife got home a few days before her husband (yeah, still that selfsame boyfriend of mine), and we were EXCITED to share photos. I loved hearing about the awesome time they had. And then she invited me out to dinner with her and her boyfriend as a thank-you for working on their house. We had a lovely time.

I'll grant that I'm not dating her, nor interested in dating her, nor would I date her - she's not my "type" and I have no interest in her beyond a fond friendship. I'll even grant that she has attributes and such that REALLY rub me the wrong way at times. But.... pretty much everyone in the world REALLY rubs me the wrong way at times. As a person, she is not someone I would date. And.... so the hell what? We aren't dating. Big deal. Doesn't mean I'm jealous of the relationship she has with my boyfriend. Why should it? I LIKE her. We ENJOY each other. I think if you asked her, she'd say all the same things about me.

And I don't think we're the exception to the rule. I really sincerely believe that.

Quote:
Mono relationships have troubles and issues, too; I'm not saying they don't. When a mono girl talks about her mother-in-law: "I don't like her" "She's bossy" "She's controlling"...etc., it sounds just as bad as poly women going on and on about how her husband's partner is "controlling" "a drama queen."

Mono relationship problems like "I wish he would call me more" or "He hasn't been paying enough attention to me" or "He's not sure if he wants to commit" don't strike me as being AS petty because those types aren't two women being catty to each other. They're still kinda unpleasant to hear about and for the people to experience, but I'm not disgusted because it's not female cattiness.

In short, don't think of yourselves as troubled poly couples while the non-message-board poly couples are doing just fine. They're not better at being poly than you are. They have the same issues. Just as non-message-board mono couples have the same issues as message-board mono people. It's not an insult; it's just the truth.
Setting aside the comment about "couples" (polyamory is NOT always about couples, hierarchies, and the like, but that's another discussion entirely), I have to admit.... I don't think of us as "troubled". I think there are plenty of polyamorous people, on message boards and off, that sincerely do not think of themselves as "troubled" in the manner you describe. The people posting about problems are having problems, sure. There are other people who have problems too, sure. But not everybody NOT posting about problems is actually HAVING problems.

And, again, I'm seriously not picking on you, mercury, I promise. I just.... You sound so very jaded, and I'd like for you to see that the glass isn't always half empty I honestly do not believe that happy relationships are the exception to the rule in polyamory. Or monogamy. Or anythingelseamy.

Last edited by ViableAlternative; 07-23-2012 at 09:27 PM.
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  #38  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:49 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Have a lot of work to do and can't reply right now, but I probably will later...or tomorrow. But just want to say something about the jaded thing. Maybe it's from reading the troubles on here. People just don't seem happy. I wish they would like each other more, that's all. I wish a woman would actually like her husband's partner. (And that that partner would like her boyfriend's WIFE). You never hear that on here. I have not once read "she's really cool, he picked well." At BEST, it's been "Well, I have my issues with her, but so far there haven't been any major difficulties." It's like this begrudging acceptance. It's never nice. It's mildly troubled, AT BEST.

And no, I don't think we're all screwed up in relationships. Well, I think we are, but that it can be worked on. But I think mono and poly relationships are different, and that i see much more female cattiness in the poly ones (which only makes sense because there is much more prevalence of women pitted against each other). The mono ones have a different kind of trouble. Jealousy is an issue a lot less, but mono ones have other kinds of problems that poly ones don't have. But the NATURE of those different problems isn't as catty.
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  #39  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:56 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
I never said that EVERYONE who doesn't post is just hunky-dory - just saying that those who DO post tend to be the ones with troubles, and to extrapolate that to a statement about the whole population is fallacious, since posters tend to not be a representative cross-section of the poly population.

You may well have had some person experiences that back up your hypothesis, I am just giving you that from my experience there are quite a lot of poly folk out there who are making it work very well for them. Trying to broaden your sample size a little
The thing is, your sample size isn't any bigger than mine. Or however much bigger your sample size is than mine, it's still not big enough for YOUR assessment of poly to be any more valid.

I mean, we can go back and forth all day with "Well, the couples I see are fine" (you) and "the couples I see have so many jealousy issues' (me). I'm not going to place more stock in your assessment than I am in my own just because you tell me to.

I do notice a lot of defensiveness here. A lot of people talk freely about how much of a hassle poly is and how it's a real challenge, but as soon as someone says "Yeah, it does seem like a lot of issues," people then quickly revert to "But it's fine! I'm really quite content and it really works out well..." It's almost like you think I"m insulting you when I say it seems a hassle and has a lot of issues. I'm not insulting you. I'm just saying poly is this way. It is a hassle, it's very jealousy-filled. It's not for nothing that it has the image that it does. I'm not saying the "ends" aren't worth the struggle for some people. But the ends are just that -- the ends. The means, the journey, the struggles...go on and on...and it's constant "I don't like her" stuff.

This is what I"ve observed about poly couples: 1) they're either just starting out and neither partner has even met anyone yet; they haven't even been put to the test yet at all, or 2) couples who have been at it for a long time, but there are lots of issues.
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  #40  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:58 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Originally Posted by ViableAlternative View Post
I

Setting aside the comment about "couples" (polyamory is NOT always about couples, hierarchies, and the like, but that's another discussion entirely), I have to admit.... I don't think of us as "troubled". I think there are plenty of polyamorous people, on message boards and off, that sincerely do not think of themselves as "troubled" in the manner you describe. The people posting about problems are having problems, sure. There are other people who have problems too, sure. But not everybody NOT posting about problems is actually HAVING problems.

And, again, I'm seriously not picking on you, mercury, I promise. I just.... You sound so very jaded, and I'd like for you to see that the glass isn't always half empty I honestly do not believe that happy relationships are the exception to the rule in polyamory. Or monogamy. Or anythingelseamy.
Oh, I think it's easier to be happy in monogamy. I definitely think there are plenty of happy mono couples. I said they have their problems, but I think it's an easier relationship structure. They don't always last forever, but I think most people are more at peace in monogamy for a longer period of time than one is in polyamory.
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