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  #81  
Old 07-18-2012, 02:25 AM
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UtahHopeful UtahHopeful is offline
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Default Impressive conversation

I've returned, and feel fortunate to be among such deeply thoughtful people. I can see Creation's wisdom playing out in your thoughts and its beauty! Thank you!
As a Christian Minister who is Pagan I would offer these simple things to contemplate. First - the Bible is a living history of Creator communicating with humans, and humans failing to understand. This failure is acceptable to Creation, and is seen as failure only from our perspective. Second - the Bible is not exclusive in this Universal conversation..."Religions" all need to get over themselves in this way...Authority is not in the hands of humanity, but in the Spiritual nature of the Multiverse we are equally part of.
Because we're talking Bible, let's keep the conversation accurate. Old Testament is the 'old testimony'...This is historical in nature, and is context for the 'New Testimony'
Christ, His removal of all sin, His example of the Spiritual path, and His sacrifice to change the laws of the physical plane for all spirits comming here should be the conversation.
If anyone sees sin in another humans behaviors, including their own - they have sinned. Christ made it clear...the process and law of free agency is the good news!
To execute this self governing law in Christ's spiritual path example is the plan of Creation. Do unto others - because they are you. Love all things as Creator - because all things are part of the Creator.
Two Souls, making the shared commitment to express their love through free agency by sharing their bodies and sexual experiences with others, is Holy Matrimony. Not because I say, not because a religion says...but because they seek honest shared expressions of Free Agency....
Bless you all for making our world more honest!
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  #82  
Old 07-18-2012, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by UtahHopeful View Post

Because we're talking Bible, let's keep the conversation accurate. Old Testament is the 'old testimony'...This is historical in nature, and is context for the 'New Testimony'...
Dear Mr Christo-Pagan preacher,

The Tanakh is not historical, except for certain things written post 700 BCE. The entire Torah is myth, full of heroes from a magical realm, complete with holy mountains and magical waters. There is absolutely no evidence anything written there ever happened, no evidence any of the heroes lived (Noah, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, et al). There is some evidence David and Solomon lived, but not in the splendour of wealth and "wisdom" as depicted.

However, early Christians co-opted the Hebrew Scriptures (in their Greek written form) to add panache to their new religion. Your Jesus is a typical mythological god, as are the 2 Marys. Jesus' story is a gnostic retelling (midrash) of the story of Moses leading his enslaved tribe out of Egypt. Moses is called by his new god to lead people out of slavery, as Jesus is called to lead his people away from the strictures of Hebrew Law, and to free them from Roman rule along the way. Moses then spends 40 years in the desert (though if you read it carefully, the Hebrews were settled at an oasis much of that time... and historically there is no evidence this supposedly huge tribe ever wandered or settled anywhere as claimed). Jesus only spends 40 days in the desert-- he gets a break! Moses then dies (as Jesus did), and his right hand man/alter ego, Joshua (same name as Jesus, no coincidence) crosses the Jordan. Your Jesus is baptised in the Jordan. They both then lead their followers to a new land of milk and honey, Israel, or the kingdom of "god, the father."

I wouldn't discount the OT as mere history. There is much wisdom in Proverbs (which are taken from ancient Egyptian culture) and in the existential, personal ramblings of the historical so-called prophets (Elijah and Elisha however, were mythological heroes). Also, the Song of Songs is really hot and was extremely popular in its day, being sung as a drinking song at orgiastic goddess celebrations/rituals. It's entirely pagan. (It is not as graphically sexy as a song of the courtship of the goddess Innana though... check that one out!)

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Christ, His removal of all sin, His example of the Spiritual path, and His sacrifice to change the laws of the physical plane for all spirits coming here should be the conversation.
It is not really up to you to determine what our conversation "should" be... however, I don't acknowledge sin, so therefore do not need it forgiven or "removed" for me by someone who lived (or didn't) 2000 years ago.

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To execute this self governing law in Christ's spiritual path example is the plan of Creation. Do unto others - because they are you. Love all things as Creator - because all things are part of the Creator.
I agree love is important, communication, respect for others and for oneself, but I do not swallow that there is a thinking creator who has planned this for me, for other humans, or for other beings in the universe, be they animals or those with more highly developed thinking processes and nervous systems. That just smacks of anthropomorphism in too many ways for my comfort, much less belief.

"Holy matrimony," or as the ancient Greeks called it "heiros gamos," is shown when Mary ritualistically anoints Jesus and sensuously, intimately wipes his feet with her hair. What the heck is a woman doing anointing a male for kingship in patriarchal Jewish culture?? Anointing a new leader had been strictly the provenance of men for hundreds of years at that point. Then Mary finds Jesus (as John tells it) outside his tomb in a garden. The idea it was a garden completes the cycle of Adam and Eve being rejected from one, way back in Genesis. Mary even mistakes Jesus for a gardener, perhaps because of his big straw hat and the garden tools in his hand (hehe), as Adam was called to be gardener of the earth.

So, to sum up, dismissing the OT as mere history is a mistake for any Christian. Much or most of the Bible is a myth. Myths can tell us a lot about ourselves. Don't worry about sin, there is no Creator either leading us into temptation or forgiving us when we succumb. Jesus believed in demons. Sheesh, that's Stephen King territory.

A close reading shows us there is evidence the Jesus character was married to both Mary (of Bethany or the Magdalene) as well as her sister Martha. If you can't see that, it is because the Catholic Church leaders of the early centuries CE cut it out, making gnostic books illegal, and hiding the importance of Mary M in the canonical literature. The later writings of the doctors of the church (I'm looking at you Augustine!) clearly showed women their place in Christianity as it came to be practiced quite early on.

I always thought it was so weird that the Trinity was all male! Once I figured out the "Holy Spirit" was female (as evidenced by her appearance as a dove, a well known goddess symbol of the time) a trinity of father, mother and son (or really a quad, once we acknowledge Jesus had a consort in Mary) made a lot more sense.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 58, living with:
miss pixi, 37, who is dating (NRE):
Master, 32

Last edited by Magdlyn; 07-18-2012 at 12:00 PM.
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  #83  
Old 07-18-2012, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by UtahHopeful View Post
Because we're talking Bible, let's keep the conversation accurate.
Oh, but anyone should know that accuracy is impossible when talking about the Bible! And really, there's no need for any self-appointed topic police.
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  #84  
Old 07-23-2012, 12:09 AM
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Such anger and emotional attachment in these responses.

To clarify - my last post was written for the previous posts focusing on old testament 'law'. Billions of 'Christians' have been manipulated by legalistic religions - and the cultures they control - to believe the Bible is God's word.
THEIR conversation contemplated these 'Old Testament' legalistic ideologies. In Genesis - depending on anyone's Biblical version - 'Sons of God' procreated with daughters, and there were giants, and blah blah blah. Clearly you're right regarding Biblical inaccuracy....
You're also correct regarding the Catholic Cannons, and the other ancient texts all self professed 'Christians' should read. The arrogance of religious leaders, that they know all things 'Christ' over the written texts of - for instance - the brother of Jesus, is laughable.
This doesn't mean many reading and participating in this conversation don't have their deeply held 'legalistic' and 'religious' beliefs. Their conversation is filled with struggle while reconciling their cultural beliefs against their free agency.
As for the disrespectful venom... I don't own Christ, and I'm not sure why you'd assign him to me. I'm a Christian Minister...I would never claim the bloody mantle of 'Christian' or the other Abrahamic faiths. Your emotional assumptions regarding me are inaccurate, but you're still entitled to them through your free agency....
To be clear...I am many things. We all are. I have done the hard work of Astral Projection, Past Life Regression Therapy, have daily practice in Buddhist and Vetic meditations, and Vitki to the Oracle of the Runes.
Through your free agency you can discount all things spiritual - I'm just not sure how it helps the people having this serious conversation regarding their spirituality.
I was offering perspective from a life very marginalized - Spirituality - through my free agency choices.
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  #85  
Old 07-23-2012, 05:28 PM
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“You study the Scriptures carefully. You study them because you think they will give you eternal life. The Scriptures you study give witness about me. But you refuse to come to me and receive life.”

As usual any attempt to create a dialogue about the subject of polyamory amongst people who believe Jesus is God has once again digressed to a discussion about religious beliefs as opposed to a personal experience with a spiritual being who commanded us to love.

Jesus was killed by religious wackos because he openly called them liars, hypocrites and thieves totally incapable of seeing that He is God.

For a believer in Christ this forum is providing a place to discuss serious concerns about our interest in the subject of love.

Religious rhetoric as always kills love.
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  #86  
Old 07-23-2012, 06:46 PM
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Default Too true

I look to the top of the page and read 'forum>Polyamory>Spirituality and Polyamoury>The Christian Marriage'. I'm lead to believe this is a forum to communicate issues and understandings as we express 'polyamory' through value sets and obstacles of 'culture', 'spirituality', and 'religion' while executing our collective free agencies.
I've been looking for the forum 'religions are wrong, we hate them, so they're wrong and we're right' but haven't found it yet...
Through my free agency I'm 'Christian Minister'.... not a 'Christian'. I'm also Vitki to the Oracle of the Runes and blessed with a vibrant on-going conversation with our Multiverse that all people CAN have. The Multiverse and our Spirituality are not STATIC', but religions are. This is why I minister to those 'blind faith, member sheep of the flock' folks who struggle with self imposed legalism obstacles.
You're right about the Christ. My perspective is he forced those liars to see their hypocritical expressions through their free agency. I'm not looking for Biblical conversation, nor affirmations regarding our place in our vibrant Multiverse.
All I suggest is when struggling against the cultural imprints of legalistic religions, follow the Universal law of free agency.
Logically, the reduction or redirection of free agency by those 'preaching salvation' seems as dishonest as those who suggested it was 'sin' to heal the sick on a specific day of the week...
Dishonesty with the self, and dishonesty with those you all allow in your intimate lives is the 'sinful' behavior - if you're looking for 'sin' to assign. There is no 'sin' in the polyamory expression of 'holy matrimony'...how else would you interpret 'to love, to honor, to cherish'?
Love you guys!!!...
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  #87  
Old 07-24-2012, 06:34 PM
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Such anger and emotional attachment in these responses.
Huh? Anger and emotional attachment? Where? Since it was Mags and myself who responded after your last post, I assume you mean us? I certainly am not angry. I'm pretty much unflappable and I definitely don't get angry over strangers posting words on a message board - your words are not that important to me to be angry over them or attached to any feelings about them. I get angry about things like the cost of a MetroCard to get around on public transportation in NYC, not discussions like this, LOL.

Likewise, I see no anger in Magdlyn's post. She was simply and rationally adding her thoughts to the conversation. It is a topic she has studied for quite a while, after all, and she is very knowledgeable in this area.

Methinks you place far more importance on your posts and how people respond to them than what actually exists.
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  #88  
Old 07-29-2012, 10:47 AM
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Huh? Anger and emotional attachment? Where? Since it was Mags and myself who responded after your last post, I assume you mean us? I certainly am not angry...

Likewise, I see no anger in Magdlyn's post. She was simply and rationally adding her thoughts to the conversation. It is a topic she has studied for quite a while, after all, and she is very knowledgeable in this area.

Methinks you place far more importance on your posts and how people respond to them than what actually exists.
This.

I felt no anger when writing my earlier response. I merely presented my viewpoint on the potential importance of the Tanakh to those that practice Christianity. What you seem to dismiss as mere history and legalism is actually extremely important to me as a Gnostic seeker. Also, Utah, you seem to have little understanding of Biblical historical criticism. If you intent to preach the proper understanding of Abrahamic Scripture to fundamentalists who seem mired in "legalism," I suggest you brush up on your Biblical history.

Anyone with an interest (or belief) in Christianity has their own version of Christ, which is why I said "your Christ." If you do not ID as a Christian while professing to be a "Christian minister," I find that confusing.

Bravo to you for being a preacher coming from an inter-religion perspective (Christian/Buddhist/rune thrower that you seem to be). I am coming from a similar spiritual practice. I do not "hate religion" at all. I find the differing ways ancient cultures perceived and wrote about the Divine to be quite fascinating.

On topic, in my post above, I also attempted to point out the hidden clues that Jesus was married, and was even shown to be polygynous in the story of Mary and Martha of Bethany.

NYCindie and I were a bit taken aback (not angry or emotionally attached) to your seeming attempt to guide this conversation in what you think of as a proper direction. I think it showed a bit of arrogance and lack of respect to the members posting here, as well as a lack of respect for Tanakh and the struggles of the ancient Hebrews to found and maintain their tribal solidarity through their Holy Scriptures.

"Loving us all," is all very well, but you show lack of respect here, which seems counter to your purpose.
__________________
Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 58, living with:
miss pixi, 37, who is dating (NRE):
Master, 32
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  #89  
Old 07-29-2012, 03:18 PM
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Jesus is God. His commands are straight forward. His priorities are love, mercy and forgiveness. No one is drawn to Him unless the Father draws them to Him.

I can love, have mercy and forgive someone who doesnít believe Jesus is God. What I canít do is accept anyone elseís opinion on the nature of God other than Jesus.

My relationship with Jesus is based on His statement that He will establish a spiritual relationship with anyone who asks Him.

I was hoping that by expressing my belief that Jesus is God I would cultivate a relationship or two with women on the forum who believe Jesus is God and that He doesnít inhibit us from having intimate, loving relationships but in fact promotes it.
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  #90  
Old 08-18-2012, 03:01 PM
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I agree that for some reason people who call themselves Christians try to become know it allís. Quoting their bible as if they wrote it themselves. I donít think this problem is confined to any one group, religious or otherwise.

The premise in Christianity is that Jesus is God. He said He was the truth. I believe Jesus is God and He alone knows the truth.

What always amazes me when I enter a discussion about Jesus is how impersonal the conversation becomes and turns into an esoteric debate.

My only reason for being a part of this forum is to find personal friendships. My motivation to contribute to this thread was the hope to find friendship with others who believe Jesus is God.

If someone doesnít believe that Jesus is God it leaves the role of God up for grabs. Depending on individual experiences with God this can get pretty bewildering for me.

Loving someone else as much as I love myself is one of my life goals. I donít find it difficult loving someone as much as I love myself who doesnít believe Jesus is God.

Being romantically intimate is a different story. I can think of countless numbers of miserable couples who push and pull with each other more like enemies than best friends.

For me loving my wife as much as I love myself is the equivalent of believing and loving Jesus as God. Fortunately for me she feels the same way.

I think weíre all picky about who we sleep with and thatís a good thing.

We never know who we will encounter in any given day. Itís often not our choice. I would hope that whoever I happen to encounter I would be able to love, be kind, empathetic and learn something new.

The older I get the more I realize how little I knew about myself, about other people and most of all about the importance of loving each other.

Regardless of what we believe about God.
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