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  #21  
Old 07-12-2012, 07:08 AM
turtleHeart turtleHeart is offline
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
OCCASIONALLY I will have a one-on-one date with one or the other of them. But, the large majority of our social time is all together (including kids).
It definitely seems more doable when everyone can be happy having most of their time be together. Tomorrow night Ginko and I will be camping with my girlfriend, Friday night Ginko will be with J at his place while I work, and then Saturday afternoon through early Sunday I'll be joining them at his place.

So far my wife and I like having our own place, but wish our lovers lived in easy walking distance. For now we make treks together to stay at their homes and have them stay at ours. We largely only go separately if one of us isn't available.
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  #22  
Old 07-12-2012, 07:50 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Turtle-I agree!
In my perfect world, we'd actually have a large piece of property with multiple homes on it or a triplex.
Because that would allow a bit more autonomy.
But-I think that would be more realistic when the kids are grown. Right now, the kids really benefit from all of us being under one roof so that they can get to whichever adult it is that they need in a moment.
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  #23  
Old 07-14-2012, 01:24 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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Default Reply - Part 1

I've been putting off posting on this thread because I wanted to be able to devote the time to it that I think it deserves - so now, of course it is even longer and there is more to address.

I've found it rather ironic that since getting together with Dude and having him living with us I actually get more quality time with MrS and it has led to a deepening and strengthening of our (already deep and strong) relationship.

Dude and MrS were best friends before I met Dude, and MrS and I had been together for 19 years. After 19 years we knew each other pretty well, we had told our stories and shared our ideas and thoughts so often that each of us knew the other pretty much inside and out. We each had outside interests as well as our mutual interests.

Dude and MrS share an avocation and several interests. I work long hours and often they would get together to pursue these - MrS sometimes not getting home some nights until I was in bed (he always called to "tuck me in" and let me know if he is coming home or staying at Dude's and we would share our "experiences of the day")

Now that Dude is here, MrS and he pursue their avocation and hobbies from home - so I actually get to see more of MrS than I did before. Some of these activities are such that I can be with both of them while they are engaged. Talking, touching, bonding etc.

In addition, my relationship with Dude has uncovered previously unexplored topics of discussion between MrS and myself, which would never otherwise have come to light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
...thus why I find there's more quality time for me in monogamy.
Whereas for me - now my husband is home those nights when he previously would have been out with his friend.


Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
It's interesting what you said about just hanging out with someone. You're right that you can't tell someone about your day if you were there the whole time.
I come home and share my day with them, and they share their day with me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
It is important to still do your own things, but it's possible to have your own time and quality partner time at the same time.
I agree completely. It's also possible to have quality time with two people at the same time while having your own time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
Naturally my partner and I do not read together. We read mostly different things and at very different rates. That would be too much of a loss of the individual. We do, however, sometimes enjoy reading near each other at the same time. What this provides in a monogamous relationship is the opportunity to share things as they occur in a way that wouldn't otherwise be possible. Every time either partner reads or experiences something that they find fascinating, the other partner is often nearby and happy to hear about it. Rather than hearing about a number of things in summary later, the opportunity is there to share them a little more in-depth as they occur.
This is also possible with more than one person. Each of us reading our books, or surfing the internet, or watching a documentary and being able to share - in real time - interesting tidbits of what we are experiencing. We are just sharing it with two people at the same time rather than one (for instance, right now MrS is reading the news online, Dude is playing a game online and watching a movie, I am reading/posting here - every so often one of us will pipe up with an interesting comment/observation and a conversation will ensue).


Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
If we're at home working on something, we have the opportunity to interact as we work. She can get my opinion on something or share something she's discovered with me as it happens and vice versa. There's a great deal of intimacy and familiarity in that.
I agree. We get that when we all three work together on something. In addition there is almost always someone available to work on a project if one person is unavailable (or not interested). So each dyad (me and MrS as husband and wife, me and Dude as boyfriend and girlfriend, Dude and MrS as best friends and metamours) has the opportunity to develop this intimacy and familiarity over a shared project and then share it with the third person - whereas before these would have ended up as "solo" projects to be shared with someone "after the fact."


Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
Rather than trying to split our discoveries and understandings between multiple people, we have one person who has heard all of the previous ones who we can also share the new one with.
MrS has already heard my discoveries and understandings that occurred pre-Dude - we've talked them to death. I like talking about them with Dude as a fresh experience (similar to how I do with a new friend) - just like he enjoys sharing his experiences before he met us. New experiences that we three create together build upon these foundations.

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Originally Posted by apophis View Post
I also think that going to a movie on a date is a waste of time, but I don't think going to a movie with a partner is a waste of time. We do not talk while watching a movie or a tv show except for maybe a very occasional one sentence side comment to point out something we really like, but there's still an intimate involvement in the shared experience. I know when she gets excited about something or nearly any of her reactions to various things. In choosing to share the experience of watching a particular movie or show (which of course we don't always do) I can see how she reacts to the new thing. It's not a during-experience conversation that's important to me. It's that I know she has certain kinds of reactions to certain things, and I like being around to see them. I wouldn't be jealous if she shared those reactions with someone else, but I would feel like I was missing out on them. Then our conversations immediately after the movie or show discussing what we thought with the reactions still fresh in our minds would also be lost.
The three of us go to movies together so we get to see each others reactions in real time this way as well. Then we go out for a beer and conversation. I can envision that there may be movies that one of the three of us is not interested in seeing - in which case two can go and they can share with the third when they get back (like going to a movie with a friend and sharing with your spouse when you get home). (In the past - MrS would go to films he know I wouldn't like with our friend's wife who had similar tastes, and our friend and I would occasionally go off and do stuff his wife and MrS didn't like while they watched football - we we hate - so not all of this has to do with poly - friends can have shared experiences as well - I'd have to say that the time spent with other friends has diminished with the poly arrangement - NOT the time spent with spouse.)
__________________
Me: poly bi female, in an "open-but-not-looking" Vee-plus with -
MrS: hetero polyflexible male, live-in husband (together 21+ yrs)
Dude: hetero poly male, live-in boyfriend (together 3+ yrs) and MrS's best friend
Lotus: poly bi female, "it's complicated" relationships with Dude/JaneQ/MrS
TT: poly bi male, married to Lotus, FB with JaneQ
VV and MsJ: bi-women with male primaries, LTR LDR FWBs to JaneQ


My poly blogs on this site:
The Journey of JaneQSmythe
The Notebook of JaneQSmythe

Last edited by JaneQSmythe; 07-14-2012 at 01:50 AM. Reason: typography
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  #24  
Old 07-14-2012, 01:25 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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Default Reply - Part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
We both like adventures, exploring new places, trying new foods, going for walks, etc. So when we want to share an experience and spend time with each other we do these things that we know we'll find mutual interest in... What I value isn't discovering the really interesting tree or path and then telling her about it. It's being there when we discover it together. We talk and play with each other while exploring something and share in the exploration.
I agree. The three of us enjoy these as well. We do them together.

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Originally Posted by apophis View Post
If either of us are out by ourselves (which we often are as well) and discover something interesting, we often rush home to drag the other person out to see it (a desirable experience on both our parts).
If any of us are out by ourselves (which does happen periodically) and discover interesting, we often rush home to drag the other two out to see it (a desirable experience on all of our parts).

Added benefit - sometimes we discover something interesting that only ONE of the other two would also be interested in - in which case we have someone to drag off and share it with (rather than noone).

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
We want to do all of our traveling together (and already have so far) for the same reasons. The shared experience of the exploration and adventure with someone who we've shared the vast majority of the other exploration and adventure with is what is desirable. It's all quality time for us. Of course we'd go off at various times and do our own thing, but the point for us is to do most of it together. We get a tremendous amount out of the actively shared perspectives.
I've traveled with my family, by myself, with a friend, with my husband, and with my husband and boyfriend together. I envision that most of our travel in the future will be with the both of them - we all get a tremendous amount out of the actively shared experiences.


Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
In sexuality the exploration is the same. We both value having someone who we're entirely committed to. In fact, it seems a bit of a hassle to have to deal with other people. We have a growing understanding of each other's responses. We're always trying new things. At the same time, we understand each other sexually. The interrupting work for quick sex is just as desirable as the longer play at other times. To attempt to bring another person into those cycles and understandings would be...annoying.
Here we disagree. After 19 years of marriage we had tried all the "new" things we thought we might be interested in. We understand each other's responses, we understand each other sexually. Turns out you CAN teach an old dog new tricks...I have a much higher sex drive than hubs (always have) so I can try new things with Dude without wearing MrS out and then bring him what I have learned that I think he will like. Hot stuff!

Interestingly enough those cycles and understandings can be different with a different partner - exploring those has given me more insight into my own sexuality, which I can then share with MrS, to the benefit of all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
When she goes somewhere I'll often pick her up when she comes back and vice versa.
We do this as well - there is just two people doing the picking up or being picked up - depending. (Perhaps I shouldn't talk about the time Dude picked MrS and I up at the airport after a week away and MrS drove us home while Dude and I had "I missed you so much" sex in the back of the station wagon on the way home while the trucker's honked and MrS laughed...talk about a "shared" experience...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
The sharing of the financial burden (though we maintain strictly separate bank accounts) is valuable for us both. It provides support when work ebbs and flows for either one of us. It also means we can buy each other gifts without worrying about buying gifts for anyone else. We're always noticing what the other responds to, and I'll pick up a surprise gift that she doesn't know exists based on a new interest she has just because I can. I could never even afford to do that with multiple people, and the sheer exertion of trying to keep even two people in my head on that level would be exhausting. When I go to a book shop I browse for both me and her because I'm so familiar with what she's reading and what her current reactions to books are. I couldn't add another person into that.

I also could never do an ebb and flow of financial support with more than one person.
This is another area on which we disagree - but many couples (or vees or quads) handle finances differently. I am the primary breadwinner for our Vee - I'm good at it. My income is steady and sufficient to cover our needs and most of our "wants". Each person has enough "fun money" to allow for gift giving if desired. In addition - "giving/receiving gifts" is a "love language" that may or may not be important to different individuals. I am NOT a good gift giver or receiver unless the gift is absolutely perfect. MrS is an awesome gift "picker-outer" and will buy presents for me or Dude if he sees something we would love (he is in charge, also, of buying gifts for our nieces/nephews - the only other people we ever buy presents for). Dude will buy the occasional gift for MrS if he has noticed he has responded to something in that fashion. (They spend more time together than with me because of my work hours - so he has more opportunity to notice these than I do, in addition to the fact that they share so many "outside" interests.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
Additionally there's the issue of care. Both of us value having the consistent person around who's familiar with everything to help when something goes wrong. There's no question that the person who knows her best won't be there when she's having trouble with something, is sick, or even is in the hospital and vice versa. There would never be an issue of she's sick but my other is in the hospital so they take priority or that both were in the hospital and time had to be divided.
What's wrong with having a backup person – who is also familiar with everything? Think about this in term of kids. If there are two (or more) parents – then there are more people available if they are sick or in the hospital. If two of your kids are sick do you really “choose” just one of them to take care of? I know my husband takes comfort in the fact that if something were to happen to him I would have someone to take care of me and support me – put out the dogs, make sure that I ate, etc. Someone who knew every facet of the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
I couldn't divide my time between the things that she wanted to be involved in and the things that someone else wanted to be involved in. I'm far too focused on the person I'm with for that, and she is as well.
??? - this confuses me, chances are that if I am involved with someone then either they share the same things that I want to be involved in that my husband does as well, OR they share the same things that I want to be involved in that my husband does not (which I would otherwise be pursuing by myself) OR they share the same things that my husband does that I don't want to (thereby giving my husband a companion in their shared interest and letting me go do my own thing). Do you think that people really get involved with other people that they have NOTHING in common with?
__________________
Me: poly bi female, in an "open-but-not-looking" Vee-plus with -
MrS: hetero polyflexible male, live-in husband (together 21+ yrs)
Dude: hetero poly male, live-in boyfriend (together 3+ yrs) and MrS's best friend
Lotus: poly bi female, "it's complicated" relationships with Dude/JaneQ/MrS
TT: poly bi male, married to Lotus, FB with JaneQ
VV and MsJ: bi-women with male primaries, LTR LDR FWBs to JaneQ


My poly blogs on this site:
The Journey of JaneQSmythe
The Notebook of JaneQSmythe

Last edited by JaneQSmythe; 07-14-2012 at 01:54 AM.
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  #25  
Old 07-14-2012, 01:26 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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Default Reply - Part 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
This is really what I mean by quality time in monogamy as well as getting to know someone on a level that's really impossible in any other way.
I think that you and I share a lot of our definition of “quality time” - I am just not of the opinion that any other option than monogamy makes this “impossible.”


Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
What I think is really moving forward is the understanding that there is no fairy tale relationship of any kind, and that a relationship is based on what the individual desires.
Yes, I agree.

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Originally Posted by apophis View Post
What was most important to me here is to articulate my personal discovery that monogamy is not just some outdated immature fairy tale way of looking at the world but for some of us provides a mature, realistic and practical method of forming a relationship with another person.
Yes, certainly monogamy is ONE method of forming a relationship with another person. It is certainly mature for some people, realistic for some people, and practical for some people. It is none of these for other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
It doesn't inherently work on codependency or ideas that you could never love another.
No, this is not inherent to the concept. Unfortunately for many people this does turn out to be their experience. Life being what it is...ideals and philosophies are often kicked in the butt by reality..

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
The mature understanding of it takes all of the available options into account, and then makes a decision based on them.
THIS! The problem that many poly folks lament is that they were never made aware that there WERE any other “available options” - I think that this accounts for a lot of the “monogamy is bad” sentiment on nonmonogamy sites. Many people feel that monogamy has been presented as they ONLY option and they “wasted” their lives trying to fit their square selves into a round hole and that they have been made to feel that they were somehow a failure as a person for not fitting (despite the fact that many “monogamous” people “fail” at their monogamous relationships as well).

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
Finally, I felt it was necessary to articulate that, just like any variant of polyamory, monogamy also has a lot to offer for the right person that couldn't be found for them in another style of relationship.
This may be true. For me, personally, the only thing that monogamy has to offer that I can't have in my current configuration is sexual exclusivity – which is not anything that I was ever interested in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophis View Post
My preference is to divide my time between me-time, time spent with a single partner who I live with, and somewhat more minimal (not too minimal though) interactions with others. In that sense I like to be alone sometimes, love being with a partner I know intimately and trust, and don't like frequent amounts of strong interaction with other people. I'd rather keep them to friends, acquaintances, and people I have interesting conversations with where the majority of time will still be focused on myself and my partner. Some time would still be set aside for friends but possibly the amount of time devoted to a single poly secondary relationship for all of the friends combined.
My preference is to divide my time between me-time, time spent with my two partners who I live with, and minimal interactions with people I consider close friends (I have two – I talk to them once or twice a month, and see them once every year or two). As an introvert I have zero interest in spending ANY time with “acquaintances” and minimal interest in interacting with friends who are not close friends (anywhere from once every few months to once every few years). So I definitely agree that the time that I spend with my other partner (which I enjoy) replaces time that other people spend with “not close” friends/acquaintances/random strangers (which I enjoy only minimally).

Thank you for bringing up this topic...turns out I had a lot to say (and all this in response to one post!).

JaneQ
__________________
Me: poly bi female, in an "open-but-not-looking" Vee-plus with -
MrS: hetero polyflexible male, live-in husband (together 21+ yrs)
Dude: hetero poly male, live-in boyfriend (together 3+ yrs) and MrS's best friend
Lotus: poly bi female, "it's complicated" relationships with Dude/JaneQ/MrS
TT: poly bi male, married to Lotus, FB with JaneQ
VV and MsJ: bi-women with male primaries, LTR LDR FWBs to JaneQ


My poly blogs on this site:
The Journey of JaneQSmythe
The Notebook of JaneQSmythe

Last edited by JaneQSmythe; 07-14-2012 at 01:56 AM.
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  #26  
Old 07-14-2012, 09:12 AM
turtleHeart turtleHeart is offline
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Turtle-I agree!
In my perfect world, we'd actually have a large piece of property with multiple homes on it or a triplex.
Because that would allow a bit more autonomy.
But-I think that would be more realistic when the kids are grown. Right now, the kids really benefit from all of us being under one roof so that they can get to whichever adult it is that they need in a moment.
A little hobbit community could be nice ;-) A large earth bermed dome as a community house, surrounded by several smaller yurts. For now, my wife's bf is encouraging us to pick a bedroom in his house to make our own so we'll be more comfortable spending a couple days at a time there. He lives in a duplex by himself at this point, so plenty of spare room. It's possible that having a way for Ginko and I to focus on each other more even while being near J will make polyamory sufficiently doable for us.

The simplest (but not most cost effective) route to living nearby while maintaining autonomy that I see would be renting apartments in the same complex. Everyone would be in easy walking distance of each other while having their own space and being able to easily move if/when they need to. Another possibility we like would be to have a small RV such as a Sprinter Van or maybe even a little Transit Connect as a base that we park outside the house of whoever we're visiting.
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  #27  
Old 07-16-2012, 03:12 PM
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PolyLinguist PolyLinguist is offline
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Ah, time management. Thanks to apophis for raising this. I am always interested in the practical aspects of processes: How does this actually work?

The only poly situation I can imagine for myself, at least for now, is that of a vee. Me in the centre (pivot, is it?), my partners off to the side. But my existing partner, my wife that is, whom I not only love but we also maintain a household together. We have two grown-up sons, who come and see us often. We have friends in common. All this takes time, and would not exist on the other side of the vee: I do not see myself running a second household, have children with someone else or do much socializing with another person. Are there many people who would even take up with me on that basis? With this kind of asymmetry?

I wonder therefore how likely polyamory is possible in my case. It would be different if I started out now, and entered two relationships more or less simultaneously. But in a 30-year solid marriage?

Oh, there is some light at the end of the tunnel. My wife likes to sleep in in the morning (we are retired). Maybe I can see someone between 6 and 10 in the morning...

What do experienced polynauts say?

On one thing though I have a different perspective:


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So poly, then, would seem to be the choice between the benefits of maintaining a more full individual freedom in terms of sexuality and romance in order to experience the potential growth caused by the variety of partners or the benefits of complete devotion of time and energy to another individual at the expense of other potentials in order to fully explore that individual and everything they have to offer you.
I really don't think that there is much to explore after you are with someone for 30 years. I may have fun with my partner, I may appreciate the time I spend with her, but we know each other thoroughly. I am not sure I would want to be explored any further: anything I can think of, yup, been there, done that.

In fact, the only exploration of new things is the discussion of the possibility of outside sexual relationships, a bit of a taboo until recently. This is something new, fun, and has aroused no negative feelings at all. If nothing else, it has enhanced our own sex life, so at least this much good has come from raising the polyamory iussue!
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