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  #221  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:31 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
I see lots of "she should have, she could have, she shouldn't have's" about your bf's gf's feelings.

Telling your bf to tell his gf "don't feel jealous..." well, it just doesnt work that way. Jealousy is an emotion that needs to be felt, and worked through, and finally let go of when one is secure. You can't just *poof* it away.

However, even if she has always been interested in polyamory, thinking about it and actually doing it successfully are 2 different things. I shared my story with you to show you how that went down for me. I was completely overcome with surprise at the intensity of the NRE my husband had for his gf. They didn't keep it in check, and I wasn't prepared to deal with it, despite having read The Ethical Slut. I ended up feeling more like his mom, like a mother sending her teen son out on dates, and like the babysitter for our kids, doing the drudge work while he was out having fun.

It can really take a while to learn the ins and outs of polyamory. Your heart does get dinged and even broken sometimes.
By the way, glad you shared your story. I understand how you felt. I understand how she feels, too.

Wanting polyamory and doing it without jealousy are two different things.

Still, as a person who feels more comfortable with it, I'm allowed to talk about my relative feeling of ease about it. You don't have to take offense to it when I say how I am compared with how she apparently is. She's more jealous/more insecure. I don't know how many times I've said it doesn't make her bad. Just less secure and more jealous. I think it'd be difficult for me, too, just not as much so.

And as far as feeling bad about the NRE of a partner and his new woman. I think one solution to that is to get an additional partner of your own. Again, I know that doesn't happen easily either. But you could certainly try to find a partner for yourself too so that you're not sitting at home when he's out with someone else. Have fun. Polyamory isn't supposed to be a woman, her husband, and her husband's gf. It's all too often like that. But the wives and original girlfriends need to get boyfriends and girlfriends of their own and have fun with it. It's not fun for anybody when one person's seething about other people's fun.

Last edited by mercury; 07-08-2012 at 07:33 PM.
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  #222  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:35 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Oh, I'm not offended. No worries. I just hear you saying you're surprised at the intensity of her jealousy and insecurity. And it is unfortunate and disappointing for you of course! You wouldnt have let your heart get all involved with your bf if you didn't think his gf was OK with polyamory. Just like, I wouldn't have started up with the woman my ex and I had a relationship with, if I didn't think she was bisexual.

Instead we were both thrown when expectations met reality.
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  #223  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:41 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Oh, I'm not offended. No worries. I just hear you saying you're surprised at the intensity of her jealousy and insecurity. And it is unfortunate and disappointing for you of course! You wouldnt have let your heart get all involved with your bf if you didn't think his gf was OK with polyamory. Just like, I wouldn't have started up with the woman my ex and I had a relationship with, if I didn't think she was bisexual.

Instead we were both thrown when expectations met reality.
I am a bit surprised at the level of jealousy and insecurity on her part because she's an attractive woman. She's not drop dead gorgeous, but she's attractive. Cool personality, smart, sweet, educated, professional. And I think I'm attractive, too (I'm all those same things). Honestly, I think in the big picture of things, she and I are pretty even.

I just feel like...why be jealous of me? I'm nothing special. Anything I am, she is too. And vice versa. So...I don't get it.

Honestly, I think one reason why I don't feel that jealous in general of other women is that I don't have this sense of myself as awesome. Well, I think I am; I just think other women are, too. Therefore, it's not heartbreaking for me to imagine a man I love thinking of another woman as awesome and totally worthy of his emotions.

I can see him looking me in the eyes and saying (about her): "She's just wonderful. I love her so much." And me saying, "That's wonderful, baby." If I know he loves me too and thinks I"m wonderful, too, and has a great deal of passion for me too...I'm good.
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  #224  
Old 07-09-2012, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
And as far as feeling bad about the NRE of a partner and his new woman. I think one solution to that is to get an additional partner of your own. Again, I know that doesn't happen easily either. But you could certainly try to find a partner for yourself too so that you're not sitting at home when he's out with someone else. Have fun. Polyamory isn't supposed to be a woman, her husband, and her husband's gf. It's all too often like that. But the wives and original girlfriends need to get boyfriends and girlfriends of their own and have fun with it. It's not fun for anybody when one person's seething about other people's fun.
That can be a slippery slope. It's not supposed to be a race or a competition; if you need to fill more time, it doesn't need to be with another person. In fact, it can be even more of a detriment. Another = an additional set of characteristics, emotions, habits, etc. that need to be taken into account. It's like emphasizing you can't have fun without mirroring your SO, which of course is not true.
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  #225  
Old 07-09-2012, 04:20 AM
mercury mercury is offline
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Originally Posted by Arrowbound View Post
That can be a slippery slope. It's not supposed to be a race or a competition; if you need to fill more time, it doesn't need to be with another person. In fact, it can be even more of a detriment. Another = an additional set of characteristics, emotions, habits, etc. that need to be taken into account. It's like emphasizing you can't have fun without mirroring your SO, which of course is not true.
I didn't mean what I said in terms of competition, "Keeping up with the joneses" (er...one's partner). It's absolutely correct that one shouldn't need to have someone just because one's partner does. In a perfect world, we'd all feel cool just hanging out by ourselves doing hobbies while our partners are with their new girlfriends/boyfriends. But realistically? Actually having someone else yourself (I'm talking about someone you genuinely like/adore, not just someone you picked up in order to "keep up") is probably a lot more effective in reducing your "seething while he's out with his new girlfriend."

I mean, in the situation I was in, when he and I were talking about seeing each other again, and then a few days later he told me that she was bristling about it, he told me that she had said, "Wait til I'm dating someone too..." So even she was thinking...it would be easier on me if I had someone myself.

I mean, maybe people like to think they are "too mature" and "too evolved" to have to hurry up and get a gf/bf of their own just because their partner has one, but I say...get one. It's also not great to feel jealous, so work through it and try to feel okay with it in your own right, but you can do even more to ease the difficulty by having fun yourself, even just going on dates. Go out on girls nights with your female friends. Don't sit at home, 'cause you're just gonna give him/her hell for having a good time without you.

The girl in my situation, when I had coffee with her, I asked her if she was dating or trying to date, and I think she tried to pull the old, oh-so-mature 'no, I don't need to keep up with him' She said to me in this very mature way, "I am far too busy right now. I have several projects I"m working on. I can't even think about it."

Come to find, a week or two later, she put up a newly-created OkCupid profile and was trying to get out there because he had someone. I also hear from him that she was very jealous of me being around.

Last edited by mercury; 07-09-2012 at 04:25 AM.
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  #226  
Old 08-22-2012, 07:59 PM
Ttree Ttree is offline
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Originally Posted by zylya View Post
http://www.scarletletters.com/current/021403_nf_rk.html



I've always been against the veto since I don't agree with an outside party being able to end a relationship, but I thought this was an interesting point of view - the idea that you trust someone enough to make the right decision by you instead of the right one for them. I'm still not sure I'd feel entirely comfortable giving someone that power thought. Thoughts?
I agree with your POV. I don't think love should have to be "proven" through demonstrations of trust and allowing someone else to control or limit you. Love is not demanding like that. (Bear in mind, anyone reading this, that I am referring specifically to the veto as defined "allowing someone the right to TELL you whom you may not date (and by my own extension, declare your love to and maybe at some point express your love via physical intimacy with said person/s)", under any or specific circumstances, I am not addressing the right to advise, or to veto oher things one may issue with regarding such things as who is allowed around the children, who is allowed in whose house, etc).

My own experience (more in very close friendships and family relationships than romantic relationships) has been that one tool that was frequently used by people to manipulate me was the "I'm trusting you to do this, don't let me down" or "if you really care you'll let me make this decision for you" angle, which I fell for many times. In the emotionally abusive and manipulative friendship(s) I was in it was basically a way for them to establish control over me.

However I am against the veto on principle because I see "love" as a big part of my personality, and wanting to be there for those I love, and tell those I deeply care about that I do really love them. Nobody can tell me whom to love and whom of my lovers I may lend my strength to. I see it as being about more than me and as an activist I see love as one of the things I fight for. Love is not wrong! However, other people may not have the same feelings as me, or form the same emotional and protective attachments I do. For me, to be able to love whomever I love and be able to be there on all levels when the person I love needs me is very important. I consider myself (currently) non-hierarchical for this reason, because I don't want to be held back or limited by someone else's veto whenever someone I care about needs me to be there for them. Maybe other people prefer a primary or see things differently?
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  #227  
Old 07-26-2013, 11:48 AM
Monogamish Monogamish is offline
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Default His wife has a sex veto: is this totally unworkable?

I went out on a date with a great guy last night. We hit it off intellectually, there was mutual attraction, he was sweet and funny and wasn't a total poly newbie, and he and his wife have both had experience with open relationships in the past. All great so far.

Then the giant red flag came out on the field: he and his wife have a rule. Either she has to be in the same house while he has sex (and then she doesn't get a say in whether or not he HAS that sex), or, before clothes start coming off, he has to contact her and ask for permission to have sex with his partner. Every time, if she's not around. And she can say no.

I have a big fucking problem with this. I want me and my partner to be in control of our sex life, not a third party (because past trauma blah blah). I hate veto power. So at first glance, I thought this was the dealbreaker and we should just go our separate ways.

But I also haven't met his wife yet. If she's a cool, non-neurotic, reasonable person, I would like to look her in the eyes and ask, as nicely as I can, why her desire to control her husband's dick is more important than my desire to control my own sex life. I want a serious answer, here, because I can't think of a reason that doesn't stem from insecurity/control issues, but maybe there is one.

I also thought I might be more ok with it if he does the whole 'can I' song and dance before we ever go out on the date, so it doesn't cut into our time and he doesn't have to stop everything to wait for his wife to get in touch with him. But I'm worried that I might be fooling myself because I liked the guy.

I didn't kiss him, even though I wanted to, because this is a tricky situation and I didn't want to fuck things up with that kind of attraction right off the bat. We're both honest, analytical people, which is how this discussion came about in the first place.

I don't know what to think. Please help! Any stories or advice would be great.
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  #228  
Old 07-26-2013, 11:53 AM
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Inyourendo Inyourendo is online now
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I would not participate in such a relationship.
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  #229  
Old 07-26-2013, 12:36 PM
bookbug bookbug is offline
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IMO, your red flag warning was accurate. I would not touch this situation with a 10 foot pole.

I was with a couple that on the outside looked pretty tight. It was understood that I would be joining them. I am quite fond of closed triads, so joining a couple was not an issue for me. At first everything was great. You know when it ceased being great? When the husband and I fell in love. It had been talked about - that was the point, everyone loving everyone. Right?

Apparently not. The wife changed the rules. All I gleaned was that the husband was supposed to love only her, and I was supposed to love only her. The husband and I were not supposed to love each other. (They are now divorcing.)

My point is, if you grow to love this man, and some other woman has control over if and when you can have sex, (not to mention whether or not you can love each other) it will cause you serious heartache.

As for why the rule, I don't have a clue. I know were my SO out on a date with someone, I would feel ridiculous if he called to ask permission.
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  #230  
Old 07-26-2013, 12:42 PM
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Dagferi Dagferi is offline
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There is no way I would tolerate that rule.

I couldn't imagine getting all into things on the spur of the moment then having to stop while he had to call his wife ask ask permission to have sex. What a mood killer.
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agreements, contracts, control issues, envy, jealous, jealousy, metamour concerns, new to poly, nre, relationship dynamics, relationship issues, secondaries, secondary, sex, veto, veto policy, veto power, vetos

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