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  #211  
Old 07-01-2012, 04:10 AM
Mudita Mudita is offline
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Thanks NYC and CDM for your feedback on the veto question. This website really is a great help. How anyone do anything before the internet?
Sorry to the OP for the derail.

Last edited by Mudita; 07-01-2012 at 04:49 AM.
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  #212  
Old 07-01-2012, 04:08 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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This is a long thread, I've just discovered it, and I have not read all the responses. But I wanted to give my perspective from back when I was in a similar situation.

Back in 1999, my ex husband and I opened our marriage. We had been married/living together for 25 years at that point. We had 3 young children (preteen and young teenagers).

My ex at that time finally accepted me being bisexual and poly in nature, and he decided he'd like to try for a triad (big mistake, but we didn't know any better). We met a woman who seemed interested. My ex told me if anything about the relationship made me too uncomfortable, I came first and he'd call it off.

So, he got with her... she said she was bi and interested in trying to be with me as well. But within a short time, it became obvious she really wasn't interested in women in general or me specifically, for sexual activity or any kind of emotional closeness, even.

Other strikes against this working out was that she lived far away, about a 6 hr car trip. So, for him to see her, it would take an entire long weekend, costing a lot of gas money. When he got there, he'd wine and dine her, which was expensive (and considering, back then, he and I rarely had long romantic evenings, or even dates out for dinners, movies, or music shows, this seemed unfair)-- not really in our budget.

Plus I didn't appreciate having him gone one or 2 long weekends a month, for our childrens' sake and because I'd be stuck with all their care and other household and pet care alone, as well.

Also, he and she were in extreme NRE, not well managed, and he was distracted and spending lots of time phoning and emailing her when he was home!

So, I gave it a good try. She'd visit sometimes, for a long weekend or even a week, and I'd take the kids out of the house so the happy couple could have sex... Which felt kind of sickening. I felt like the nanny. Also sometimes they'd leave the house (to "go get a video") and be gone for 1 1/2 hours, while I sat home with the kids and felt jealous.

So... after several months of this, I just couldn't take it anymore. She was jealous of me, as the primary, I was jealous of her, as the pampered, sexed up new gf. So, yes, I did veto it.

I allowed them to remain friends, and over the years they met from time to time at events with mutual friends. I'd stay home with the kids. They also emailed regularly.

Fast forward 10 yrs later... After much therapy with a poly friendly therapist, couples and individual, he and I separated, and 6 mos after he moved out, she moved in with him. They lived together for 18 mos and then she moved out! (Same things that bugged me about living with him, also ended up bugging her, after their long standing NRE wore off and reality finally hit.)

My point? Couples new to poly can and usually do make mistakes. Since I've been single I try to only date guys (or women) who are single, or preferably, if coupled, well experienced in practicing polyamory, managing their time, budget and NRE well. I also avoid dating people with young children.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 58, living with:
miss pixi, 37, who is dating (NRE):
Master, 32
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  #213  
Old 07-01-2012, 05:13 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudita View Post
How anyone do anything before the internet?
I know you probably meant that rhetorically, but I think it's valid - my discovery of poly was before there were fora like this in existence, and, to be honest, I struggled far more than if there had been a resource like this available to help me catch some of the mistakes that I was about to make because I didn't know better and thought I was essentially on my own.
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  #214  
Old 07-08-2012, 05:46 AM
mercury mercury is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeeraReed
Jeni was almost in tears when she talked to you. Not because she was suffering from being immature, insecure, and controlling--because when she saw how quickly and wonderfully you connected with Derek, it broke her heart. . . . Derek meets you and falls for you so hard that within 4 weeks he thinks he could see the two of you living together someday, etc.

Jeni was crushed. And who wouldn't be, in her situation?
Hi, she didn't actually look like she was going to cry; she sort of had this "strained" "pained" look on her face, which yes, was kind of like she was hurt. I don't know. I don't necessarily know when people are about to cry. She just look...strained...somehow. And I don't think she was 'immature' or 'insecure' or 'controlling' because of that. Or for her feeling jealous at all. I felt she was being unfair/immature/controlling when she wasn't willing to work with the situation after I put so much out there in terms of wanting to be friendly with her, wanting to create a situation that was peaceable for all of us. I know it was hard for her.

But people must understand, too, that I had feelings for the guy. She was doing what was right for her, I guess. But what was right for her was breaking my heart. And I didn't think it had to be that way, considering I wanted to create a true poly situation where, yes, he and I have a lot of new relationship energy that would be hard for her. But I had planned to do everything I could to ease that for her. I had planned to be so gentle and caring toward her, too. Not just be his new girlfriend and hope he was handling it with her just fine. I wanted to be close to her.

I don't think she was immature to feel jealous. I think she's immature to demand that he start with some new woman, considering I have feelings for him, I wanted to love and care for him. I also wanted to love and care for her in friendship.

And as far as he and I being connected and having a good time so quickly and that being a shock to her, one that was hard to deal with...I understand that. But the thing is...it happened. Once it's happened, it seems a bit crazy to say "STOP!"

There are a lot of things she could have done other than said "Nope"

Here are some of the approaches that could have been taken but were not.

Her to him possibilities:
"This situation is really hard for me. You guys can see each other, but can we ease back into this? Can you guys maybe see each other just once a week for a while? Maybe even just hold off on sex for a while?"

"How about I spend some time with her, maybe two or three friendly outings, and then maybe after she and I get comfortable, you two can slowly start dating?"

If I had been in her shoes, I wouldn't have stopped him from seeing me. I'd just make him take it really slowly, and maybe even demand that I be the "priority" at first so that I could ease into it.

I (me, mercury) would have accepted a desire on her part for he and I to take it slowly, even like just friends for a while.

All kinds of compromises could have been made but weren't.
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  #215  
Old 07-08-2012, 06:00 AM
mercury mercury is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
It's very couple-centric and quite mono-ish to say that "of course" anyone would be crushed. I would say, instead, that anyone who is that crushed when their partner finds someone else and has a great connection with them simply isn't ready at all for polyamory and needs lots more soul-searching and inner work to do before getting into having multiple relationships. I think some jealousies and other emotional difficulties are natural, but when someone feels so devastated and insecure that they have to blow the whistle on things developing, then more discussions, more shoring up the foundation of their relationship, and more work on self-esteem may be called for before moving forward into poly. IMHO.
I agree.

And let me just say that I don't hate the girl ('jeni'). Annoyed, yes, but I mean, I don't really hate her. The truth is, I don't know in what spirit she made this decision. As I mentioned earlier, she wouldn't talk to me, even when I called her. She could have made the decision very angrily and bitchily; it's also possible she made it in a very sad, heart-wrenched, I-just-can't way. I do know her a bit, and she's a generally nice person, but I've also heard that she can be bitchy (not insulting her; many women are nice but still tough/bitchy when they need to be).

But anyway, I don't know in what spirit she made the decision. I'm assuming it's somewhere in between hateful/bitchy and completely sad/heart-wrenched. She's actually still a Facebook friend of mine. (We've been Facebook friends at least 8 or 9 months before she was ever even in a relationship with him). Neither of us has 'unfriended' each other. But I make a point of keeping most of my stuff private from her (it's private from some other people too) and her FB existence fairly minimal to my eyes as well, not out of hate, just because it's awkward now. Bad associations at this point.

Anyway, I agree that she's not ready for polyamory. I think what makes it frustrating for me is that she's been bugging him to be polyamorous for their whole relationship (the whole 2 years they've been together). I only just had any notion of polyamory when he contacted me. I just feel like, for a chick who's been mulling over this forever, you would think she'd be more emotionally and mentally prepared to at least work on it. I was prepared to work on it, and it's not even my natural instinct.

Anyway, I don't know. Maybe I'm just a lot more emotionally resilient about these things.
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  #216  
Old 07-08-2012, 06:18 AM
mercury mercury is offline
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Also, I know that Derek has deep caring for his girlfriend and loves her. He doesn't want to hurt her, and he rightfully abided by what she wanted. But you have to consider that she deprived him of the opportunity to have a second woman who loves him, who adores him. I was so incredibly crazy for him. I mean, he would have loved that. He did love that. When I was with him, one night in bed, he said he felt so lucky that he has both of us. He said, "I love being with both of you." He was way into me. It was awesome. He liked having two women. So she kept him from having that by not being willing to work it out.

I think she doesn't have anything against me at all. We were actually pals in a sort of very distant way before. She knows I'm sane; we hang out with the same type of people, etc; we have the same political stance and ideology about social issues. I think she just can't deal with not being #1 to him. And even if she is #1 to him over me (at this point and possibly into the future as well), I come in way too close a 2nd for her comfort. Maybe she thinks I'd overtake her in 1st place.

But I think that's part of being poly. You have to realize you're not the only attractive woman in the world. But it's not about who loves who more. You love different things about different people. I remember when I was talking to him about it, I told him, "Tell her not to feel jealous. I can't give you the things she gives you, and she can't give you the things I give you. We're different people. I can't replace her, nor could she replace me, because we're different people."

And I genuinely feel that way. She's attractive, but I think my jealousy is minimal because she's not attractive in the same way I'm attractive, and I don't think I'm attractive in the same way she's attractive. So, I don't think I would have been sitting up nights when he was with her, seething over him enjoying her and having a good time. Not much, anyway. I've got a whole different personality, and it's not possible for her to be me.

One could argue that I just have way too much confidence in my cuteness and attractiveness. (Not on here, of course; on here I'm angry and ranting, lol). I don't see why she couldn't feel the same. She should have confidence in her own hotness and coolness, whatever the case. And know that I'm not able to replicate it, so I'm certainly not replacing her.

Last edited by mercury; 07-08-2012 at 06:30 AM.
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  #217  
Old 07-08-2012, 06:52 AM
mercury mercury is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeeraReed View Post
-I think they talked a lot and redefined their relationship and strengthened their feelings for each other.
I think they strengthened their feelings for each other, too. But that's still somewhat irrelevant to the veto. They didn't strengthen their feelings for each other so much that they decided to be exclusive with each other or that they decided they would only build sexual but not emotional relationships with others. They are still polyamorous in intent. The goal is still to have meaningful, loving relationships with other people.

She might be a little bit more, "I love you more than I thought I did," but their structure is the same. He's (theoretically, anyway) allowed to fall in love with another woman. I mean, I think she does think she wants him to be able to have relationships with other women; she just wants to monitor closely that the other woman doesn't feel too threatening. Who knows.

I've talked to many of my friends about this, too, and they have the funniest responses to it. At least one told me, "You want to make sense out of it, 'cause that's how you are; things have to make sense. But this isn't about reasonable decisions. It's all coming from emotions."

One of my friends told me that she predicted they'd go through maybe one or two more rounds of a me-situation, with her freaking out when he likes another woman, and him finally saying "WTF?" She said she thought they'd eventually un-poly themselves, or start having escorts instead of trying to be poly.

Who knows. Like everyone has been saying, they're new to it. She's new to it. I'm still surprised that these kinds of precautions and controlling are necessary.
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  #218  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:10 AM
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Arrowbound Arrowbound is offline
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
I've talked to many of my friends about this, too, and they have the funniest responses to it. At least one told me, "You want to make sense out of it, 'cause that's how you are; things have to make sense. But this isn't about reasonable decisions. It's all coming from emotions."
They're right. You're trying to rationalize where it doesn't make sense to you. I do that also but sometimes it gets to a point where I have to be still and center myself, and mute that analytical voice so I can think about other things.
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  #219  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:21 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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I see lots of "she should have, she could have, she shouldn't have's" about your bf's gf's feelings.

Telling your bf to tell his gf "don't feel jealous..." well, it just doesnt work that way. Jealousy is an emotion that needs to be felt, and worked through, and finally let go of when one is secure. You can't just *poof* it away.

However, even if she has always been interested in polyamory, thinking about it and actually doing it successfully are 2 different things. I shared my story with you to show you how that went down for me. I was completely overcome with surprise at the intensity of the NRE my husband had for his gf. They didn't keep it in check, and I wasn't prepared to deal with it, despite having read The Ethical Slut. I ended up feeling more like his mom, like a mother sending her teen son out on dates, and like the babysitter for our kids, doing the drudge work while he was out having fun.

It can really take a while to learn the ins and outs of polyamory. Your heart does get dinged and even broken sometimes.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 58, living with:
miss pixi, 37, who is dating (NRE):
Master, 32
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  #220  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:28 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
I see lots of "she should have, she could have, she shouldn't have's" about your bf's gf's feelings.

Telling your bf to tell his gf "don't feel jealous..." well, it just doesnt work that way. Jealousy is an emotion that needs to be felt, and worked through, and finally let go of when one is secure. You can't just *poof* it away.

However, even if she has always been interested in polyamory, thinking about it and actually doing it successfully are 2 different things. I shared my story with you to show you how that went down for me. I was completely overcome with surprise at the intensity of the NRE my husband had for his gf. They didn't keep it in check, and I wasn't prepared to deal with it, despite having read The Ethical Slut. I ended up feeling more like his mom, like a mother sending her teen son out on dates, and like the babysitter for our kids, doing the drudge work while he was out having fun.

It can really take a while to learn the ins and outs of polyamory. Your heart does get dinged and even broken sometimes.
I know it's not as easy as telling someone "don't feel jealous." I am sharing my attitude about jealousy, which is to say that I think if one reminds one's self that other people can't replace you, one can potentially feel less jealous.

I was in no way saying it's as easy as saying "don't feel jealous" and that *poof* jealous goes away.
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