Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > General Poly Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 07-05-2012, 02:25 AM
PhilosophicallyLost's Avatar
PhilosophicallyLost PhilosophicallyLost is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 45
Default

After what you mentioned Tonberry I will hold off on sharing the letter. I meant to show it as a means to gain perspective, but after reading it again it is pretty personal in a lot of ways, so it's best not to share it with people he doesn't know.

Hyperskeptic, I completely agree with what you said. I really don't feel poly's causing my brother pain or is a threat to some vital need. If anything my lack of communication to him fits the bill better. If my brother just attacked how I cornered Y with the situation and said something along the lines of, "Poly is fine if all parties are truly okay with it," I'd feel much better about his reaction. However his whole letter really implied a general sense of, "There's no situation in which poly is ethical, so don't do it." Even if I waved a magic wand and Y was fully okay with the situation, my brother I fear still would want little to do with me because he's convinced the poly arrangement lends itself to harm to all parties involved. I don't think he realizes that what would make him happy may not make others happy, and I agree that the Golden Rule is being overextended in his perception of my situation. It's up to us three (Y, E, and myself) to determine what makes us happy and what causes us harm.

GalaGirl: Yeah, I guess it's time to write him my own letter. This is my life and I'm actually very proud to be making these choices based on what I think will make me happy instead of living by the fear I used to, so regardless of whether I'm making a mistake or not I feel like I can have peace in that I tried to live with my heart some instead of my fears. I can't let the fear of losing my close brother control me either.

Quote:
I wonder if he's got some, "Where did I go wrong? Did I do something (or not do something) that led her to this?" going on, like other parents have had when their offspring come out to them.
That is so funny, ThatGirlInGray. This is like the very echo of some of the words my brother used in his initial reaction to this whole situation. I guess you guys have had experience with unpleasant coming out to parents stories? I hadn't thought of my brother in this role so much because I've been living on my own for six years, but your comment does add perspective. I have to agree with something my dad said once...."You do the best you can until they start hitting 16, 17, or so....then after that, what you say probably isn't going to make as much of a difference, and you just have to hope you raised them well enough up to that point that they'll make the right decisions." Dad was basically saying the level of influence a parent has becomes pretty limited at that point, so no need in beating up yourself over your lack of influence after that. My brother feels very strongly still that he had some sort of power to steer me a different direction than poly when I confided to him I was having attractions to E, as if he had some power to really change how I thought about things. I find this reaction absolutely foreign to me and absurd. I don't WANT anyone having that much power over me, else I just would have gone along with what society dictates and just stayed monogamous. I just don't see why anything he would have said or done would have changed the outcome, at all.

I do find my brother's defensiveness of Y a bit odd myself. My brother is pretty well aware of the history behind my marriage troubles, and he was aware of my attraction to E. Granted I did not tell him the depth of my attaction to E and I think that was somewhere I should have communicated more on. Still.....his reaction of me having better alternative choices seems a bit naive to me. My brother's never been in a romantic relationship himself, so I have trouble thinking he even realizes some of the complications that come up with romantic emotions.

Well, I'm off to write a letter....I'll let you know how that goes.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Me: K, female, 27. Married to Y for over 4 yrs (male, monogamous, 33). Opened relationship to E (male, monogamous, 27) in a relationship vee.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-08-2012, 02:34 PM
noob noob is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 58
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosophicallyLost View Post
This stems from the falling out I've had with my brother over my decision to try poly. He's very much of the belief that my choice to do so is immoral and he seems to find it be a very unhealthy relationship structure devoid of proper commitment.

I will be responding to his comments with a letter, since that's how we've been communicating in a civil manner lately. In order to succinctly address his big morality question mark, I wanted to know your guys' beliefs for WHY polyamory is not immoral. What in your eyes makes it ethical and deserving of acceptance? How can it be a healthy expression of love for all parties involved? I have some of my own ideas already about this, but you guys are a bit more experienced than I am and may have some ideas I don't.
I haven't read the other responses. For me, it comes down to this: the people in the poly arrangement openly and without coercion consent to the arrangement. It doesn't affect anyone outside of that arrangement, so whether others think that poly is a healthy expression of love, and a valid relationship form, is just as moot as whether I think my friends' marriage is healthy. It's their marriage; it doesn't matter what I think. I'm no more obligated to justify or defend my relationships than my mono friends are obligated to justify and defend their relationships.

That said, some poly people really want non-poly people close to them to understand the philosophical ideals behind poly: the notion that one person shouldn't be expected to meet all our needs, the fact that some people can (and may actually need to) romantically love more than one partner at once, the loneliness and unnaturalness some people feel within the nuclear family, the pursuit of sexual egalitarianism, sexual freedom and autonomy (especially for women), just to name a few...

Personally, I have found that people either get these poly ideas rather quickly or will never get them. I've given up on long-winded justifications of poly and in most cases I just focus on: "Everyone in this arrangement has consented to it. We're all okay. We would appreciate your support but don't require it. However, we will not listen to repeated criticisms of our lifestyle and our relationships, so if you feel the need to vent about poly, don't do it with us."
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:22 PM
loveboston's Avatar
loveboston loveboston is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: California
Posts: 34
Default Theraputic

I had less than a perfect childhood. Severe abuse. It wasnt until I was 48 that I really opened up to a therapist about how fd up I was. To my surprise the prescription was to join a naturist club to overcome my shame of being naked. It was perfect. I learned that there is a thin line between sensual and sexual thoughts and feelings and to never be ashamed of either but to know the difference between the two.

Its dawned on me while interacting with someone who Ive fallen madly in love with that this forum is a virtual naturist community.

It has been extremely therapeutic for me. Thank you all so much for taking your emotional clothes off. Youre all very beautiful, by the way.

Having an open marriage is nothing to be ashamed about. There is no analogy between illegal (true definition of immoral) sexual activity and an open marriage.

Perhaps your brother is uncomfortable with your willingness to expose a part of you that you are very happy about as most would be uncomfortable if we invited them to join us at the local nudist colony for a quick game of volleyball.

Were in one of the most repressive cultures that have ever existed.

I hope you find a way to help your brother see more than anything else how much you love him. And hopefully he will return that love even if hes not capable of exposing himself.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-08-2012, 11:51 PM
nycindie's Avatar
nycindie nycindie is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 6,760
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosophicallyLost View Post
My brother's never been in a romantic relationship himself, so I have trouble thinking he even realizes some of the complications that come up with romantic emotions.
Well, he should just shut up, then. You don't need to tolerate bossy, judgy people in your life, whether they are related or not.
__________________
Hot chick in the city.

Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me.
~Bryan Ferry
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-09-2012, 07:08 AM
PhilosophicallyLost's Avatar
PhilosophicallyLost PhilosophicallyLost is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 45
Default

Wow...situation with brother has gotten pretty bad. Hard to say if there is a positive place for our relationship in the future or not.

I do think America is pretty sexually repressed, but I am grateful for the amount of freedom we generally have otherwise. I just have never seen the sense in judging how people explore their bodies, I just don't.

Noob, I am getting to that point with my brother. I want his support, but I recently told him I don't require it. I hope somehow he will think of Y, E, and me as friends again but he's hurting pretty badly right now.

Nycindie, as much as I understand your reaction my brother is a person I have many memories with. I will not lightly throw those away. I at least want to see this through to see if there is any hope of him coming to terms with this situation. I probably will find out within the month...and if we have to agree that he cannot fathom how I am okay with this "sick and twisted immorality", then he will have to deal that I thoroughly disagree with him.

The situation has gone from bad to worse. I daresay he's traumatized by all of this and is having the hardest time coping. I'm trying to look into some more therapy for him because he is just operating off of raw emotion now. Still, to hear him say how "sick and immoral" I'm being has been pretty painful. He also strongly thinks I've abandoned him somehow....he's VERY warped out over that. I never withdrew my support or my willingness to love my brother. He seemingly has threatened to withdraw some of his love, imho. I did ask him if he could go home once when he was playing video games all night four nights in a row because I did want some alone time with E, so now my brother is using this as an excuse to justify that I am forcing my him out of my life over poly. He's blowing it up way out of proportion in regards to the actual offense it's silly. Besides he really has no business being at my place that much, he's not our room mate.

My brother is still rather convinced that I chose this lifestyle out of some mental dellusion, some schizo-frenzy, whatever. That this isn't "the real sister" he knows and loves. Jesus Christ, does he even know me....? This is ridiculous. You guys have seen my posts. I don't think I appear that crazy or dellusional to you guys, and I feel I have come to my decisions on relatively decent rationale. Wish he would see it that way.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Me: K, female, 27. Married to Y for over 4 yrs (male, monogamous, 33). Opened relationship to E (male, monogamous, 27) in a relationship vee.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-09-2012, 03:36 PM
CielDuMatin's Avatar
CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 1,456
Default

So his love for you is obviously conditional on you being the person he wants you to be, rather than accepting you for who you really are.

Sad.
__________________
Please check out The Birdcage - an open, friendly Polyamory forum for all parts of New York State
http://www.thebirdcage.org/

"Listen, or your tongue will make you deaf." - Native American Proverb
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-09-2012, 04:41 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,346
Default

This stage of denial isn't rare or unexpected for someone who got news they didn't expect. Think of a parent whose child came out, they might say it will pass, or that someone else brainwashed them, or that they're just trying to do something "fashionable".
But then they tend to calm down, and hopefully your brother will too. I think there will be bad times still, but I'm hoping that after a while, he will realise that this is who you are, this was who you are all along.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-09-2012, 07:09 PM
Nudibranch Nudibranch is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: PNW
Posts: 36
Default

What Ciel said last.

Polyamory is based on love.

If your brother thinks love is immoral--particularly not having experienced a loving relationship--there's nothing you can say to him. You can only be who you are and hope he grows the hell up.

It reads to me as though he is regarding you with a judgmental eye, based on his own assumptions and suppositions. That is a form of idolatry--i.e., he is following the sibling-idol in his own inner mind, rather than allowing you, his actual sib, the dignity of your own evolving personhood.

Ask him whether he considers idolatry immoral.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-10-2012, 11:01 AM
Magdlyn's Avatar
Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Metro West Massachusetts
Posts: 3,281
Default

Your brother has never been in a romantic relationship, and yet he chooses to judge your choices in your own relationships?

You say he practically raised you... yet you mention your father. I am guessing your brother is quite a bit older than you. How old is he? What has prevented him from mating? He comes over "too much," he sets himself down in front of your TV and plays video games for nights on end? Your relationships put him in a mental hospital?

Sounds like this guy needs help. He's the last person you should be trying to please as far as relationships go.

Sure, it's sad to be on the outs with a person you used to be very close with. But you're an adult, you're making choices about how to live your life that are different than the choices he's made. At least you have 2 men in your life... he doesn't have a partner at all! I'm sorry, but he sounds like the less mature one in this scenario. Definitely in no place to judge.
__________________
Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

There's no lying in polyamory!

I'm a 58 year old woman with 2 partners:
miss pixi, my live-in gf, 36 (together since Jan '09)
Ginger, bf, 61, married, lives nearby (together since Jan '12)
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-10-2012, 01:34 PM
hyperskeptic's Avatar
hyperskeptic hyperskeptic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Georgia
Posts: 372
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosophicallyLost View Post
My brother is still rather convinced that I chose this lifestyle out of some mental dellusion, some schizo-frenzy, whatever. That this isn't "the real sister" he knows and loves. Jesus Christ, does he even know me....? This is ridiculous. You guys have seen my posts. I don't think I appear that crazy or dellusional to you guys, and I feel I have come to my decisions on relatively decent rationale. Wish he would see it that way.
From your posts, there's no reason to think you are crazy or delusional. You are trying to work through all of this responsibly and thoughtfully, even though it hurts.

(Just thought you could use confirmation of that.)
__________________

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" - Charles Darwin

"Mystical explanations are considered deep. The truth is that they are not even superficial." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
morality

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:59 PM.