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  #91  
Old 12-02-2009, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
I completely agree!! Now the big challenge is presenting the idea of alternate relationship styles to the mainstream in a manner that doesn't immediately evoke defensiveness. This is tricky because it is so easy to raise hackles which feeds into more negativity. I know mono people that are quick to judge and attack poly and I also know people in my community who attempt to bring about acceptance by converting people with traditional views. So how do we do this? How do we take the higher road?
By starting with building connections with these people. Supporting them in their lives and respecting and LOVING them in their weaknesses. Allowing them time to learn to trust us. ONLY then can they safely learn about the reality of who we are.

If we try to force them to see the light of day so to speak about us-they will just "logoff". Because self-preservation comes FIRST. Only when we are safe can we grow.
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  #92  
Old 12-02-2009, 09:24 PM
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That's the friggin' point! It's not a poly vs. mono problem, it's that some people suck, and some people don't, and the definition of "suck" is totally subjective.

I'll say it for you again...

It has nothing to do with whether one is monogamous or polyamorous. That's a false divide and you are contributing to the us vs. them atmosphere that makes general acceptance (of both sides) difficult.
Is there some underlying reason you have to be so hostile? Seriously?
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  #93  
Old 12-02-2009, 09:24 PM
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yeah-I have actually encountered many people who were threatened by ME being bi. Just because they weren't they assumed I would try to convert them. THEN I come out poly-and there they are again. FREAKING OUT that I will try to "make them poly".
Common problem and one of the reasons I agree with Mono-that some of these books are percieved as threatening to "the large majority of monogomous people" that I've encountered. ESPECIALLY Christians. It's just a common reality-even if it's not EVERYONE-it is a LOT of them.
This is proper usage of E-prime again which makes a huge difference to the accuracy of a statement.
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  #94  
Old 12-02-2009, 09:27 PM
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I have to say that I've experienced the exact opposite of this. The more secure I feel in a relationship, the less I feel the need to protect or defend it. When my relationship is secure, I'm going to know that my partner is going to make choices that honor that. What is there to defend in such a case? I would only get defensive if I feel like I have good reason to lose something. If my relationship is strong, I wouldn't have that feeling.
This is true for me as well Ceoli-and yet for some reason people who I know (only mono so far, I know no poly people who are like this at this time) are even MORE defensive when they are in seemingly happy monogomous relationships and I tell them I'm poly. It's as though they are afraid that my EXISTANCE in the world is enough to destroy what they have....
Ironically I am one of those people who is really good about accepting ALL difffferent types of people-and everyone who knows me knows this (and I don't wander around having these conversations with people I don't know except on here) so it's almost as though they forget who I am all of a sudden!
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  #95  
Old 12-02-2009, 09:32 PM
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I have to ask ... is there a reason you seem to want us to agree that monogamous people are all inherently close-minded and insecure? Is there a reason you want for the poly people here in this thread to lump all monogamous people all over the world, in all cultures and all genders and all personal experiences into a single category of "easily threatened"?

Does it make it easier for you to justify your own insecurity if you think it's because your insecurity is "hard-wired" or does it make it easier to defend your monogamy if all poly people pick on all monogamous people for being "insecure"?
Good grief. Is there any chance you've read even 1/4 of his posts? I'm reading exactly the same posts as you are right now-and honestly see Mono opening himself up and talking, accepting differences of thought and you defensively attacking...
So are you feeling like somehow you must attack to get your point across?
Or is it that you feel no one is listening to you?
Or do you just flat dislike him in spite of not knowing him?
Or did you read all those 1400 + Posts (God where did you find time I haven't)and really do dislike him per those posts?
Or did you miss that HE is MONO and he's trying to share a perspective with us about problems we may face when trying to reach out and find acceptance for ourselves in a primarily mono-minded world?

I don't know? I'm trying to comprehend your purpose and point-but all I'm getting from your posts is hatred, loathing and venom. If you could restate yourself in a kind-hearted, caring way maybe it would make more sense???
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  #96  
Old 12-02-2009, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
I don't see it as a totally false divide. I certainly experience a level of divide even internally. I run in two social circles and see a level of divide as well. It is losely based on the identity of one being mono and the other being poly. They overlap but it is a struggle at times. But I'm out of time and have to "work" jeesh...

Later
There is a divide. It does periodically overlap-true. Just like GENERALLY "women are weaker in physical strength then men" however-there ARE women who are stronger and there ARE men who are weaker.

There ARE mono-people who are VERY open-minded and accepting and there are poly-people who are VERY closed-minded and judgmental...

But there is CERTAINLY a GENERAL COMMON DIVIDE
between the two-what their priorities in relationship are, what they consider acceptable, how they view the information...

I really don't believe that the issue here is that Mono is perpetuating a lie. I think it's that he's trying to share with us pitfalls we need to watch for when trying to open up our lives to other mono people. We may find mono people who don't bring with them these pitfalls-but we are likely to find ourselves struggling with these pitfalls-AND of all the ridiculous things I've encountered-WE ALL KNOW THAT.

So instead of arguing if ALL mono people are that way or not-which I think we've ALL (Mono included) agreed on (not going to go back and find that post where he made a distinction)-why don't we answer MORE DEEPLY his question (again not quoted) about HOW we traverse the divide to create a more harmonious world between ALL POLY AND ALL MONO PEOPLE?

That would be a great and interesting conversation.
However enjoyable it is and reassuring it is to see you (ceoli, ygirl, mono and others whose names keep evading me, i'm sorry) finally getting to some common ground. It's equally disappointing to see continued attacks on Mono when he's OBVIOUSLY trying VERY hard to work WITH all of us-and not against us.

AS IF HE'S PREJUDICED AGAINST HIMSELF??? Let's work PRODUCTIVELY towards solutions. If you are too angry, hostile and pissy to be friendly in your writing (while still standing by your beliefs Ceoli we all should do that) then take a break and come back when you CAN be productive. Becuase attacking when it's OBVIOUSLY an attack-is not productive and is not making any useful point to the person you are writing to.
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  #97  
Old 12-02-2009, 09:41 PM
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I think what some of you aren't getting is not that we're objecting to the claim that some (or even a lot) of monogamous people are insecure.

It's that it is one's monogamous "wiring" that makes them insecure.

Making that claim contributes to the us vs. them mentality and further enhances an insecure monogamist's belief that polyamory is threatening. If you want to try and calm people down and reassure them that polyamory isn't threatening, making statements that encourage a belief that, fundamentally, poly and monogamous people are different species who view things in totally different ways isn't the way to do it.

People are often afraid of what's different. By saying that we are a totally separate group of people who see things in fundamentally different ways, not only is that not true, but it creates that sense of Fear Of What's Different, and those people who are afraid of What's Different are the ones reacting to polyamory as if its a threat to their own relationships.

Monogamous people can be insecure, but they can also be secure. Poly people can be secure, but they can also be insecure (and it's been my personal observation that a great number of poly people are just as insecure as monogamous people).

Last edited by Joreth; 12-02-2009 at 09:54 PM.
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  #98  
Old 12-02-2009, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
There is a divide. It does periodically overlap-true. Just like GENERALLY "women are weaker in physical strength then men" however-there ARE women who are stronger and there ARE men who are weaker.
This is a false analogy because, and I repeat, strength actually IS a characteristic of the category, whereas one's insecurity is not a characteristic of the category of monogamous wiring. A better analogy would be to say that GENERALLY "women are not as good at math as men" however-there ARE women who are better at math and there ARE men who are not as good at math, because math skills are not actually linked to gender AND it's not true that women are not as good at math than men as a general trend. That would be the same kind of logical fallacy. The two traits are not connected to each other and they are not even correlated coincidentally.


Quote:
If you are too angry, hostile and pissy to be friendly in your writing (while still standing by your beliefs Ceoli we all should do that) then take a break and come back when you CAN be productive. Becuase attacking when it's OBVIOUSLY an attack-is not productive and is not making any useful point to the person you are writing to.
If you are so intent on reading emotion into text where that emotion doesn't exist, then it's no wonder you let a disagreement on the internet cause you such "pain" and distress. Calling someone "pissy" is an example of an ad hominem attack because it is rude while not discussing the validity of the points being made. Even if one was being "pissy" (which is an opinion that not everyone here shares), it doesn't change the validity of the statement that Mono used a logical fallacy in his argument and is contributing to the marginalization of monogamous people here in the poly community. If you want to "bridge the gap" between polys and monos, then calling them all inherently insecure is not the way to do it.

Your claim that something is "OBVIOUSLY an attack" is false. It is not obvious that it's an attack, nor was it even an attack.

Sorry, but just because you feel attacked doesn't mean that anyone was actually attacking you. Stop trying to make this personal, because I certainly don't care enough about you to be personally offended or to make personal judgments on your character. I am addressing the validity of statements, regardless of who makes them. And if I think someone made a false or illogical statement, I will point it out.

Last edited by Joreth; 12-02-2009 at 09:59 PM.
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  #99  
Old 12-02-2009, 09:58 PM
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I can see social circles forming around a poly identity because it's a typically marginalized identity and when that happens, people will tend to band together for support and talk about being poly because there is little space for people to be their full selves anywhere else in this culture, so it's natural that having that poly identity might be a gathering point.

But monogamy being more of a part of the dominant culture where it's considered the "default" way of being, it would be really hard to say that it's the monogamous identity that is the gathering point. I think it has more to be with being a member of the dominant culture that accepts monogamy as normal and polyamory as not normal. It's the dominant culture of a larger outlook of what is normal and acceptable that drives such things and not so much the monogamous identity that does that.
But.... if you say that being poly is a gathering point...
and you say that being mono is not...
isn't that THEN marginalizing mono?
(no sarcasm, just trying to keep up).

I guess for me-I don't really think it matters what the "gathering point is". I htink what matters is that there is this "big guy" who is marginalizing poly and that in order to stop that we need to understand the pitfalls and trenches that we will face in order to reach the big guy's side, because reaching his side peacefully is key to being able to stop him from hating us. Many people hate what they fear and fear what they don't personally know to be safe.
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  #100  
Old 12-02-2009, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Joreth View Post
I think what some of you aren't getting is not that we're objecting to the claim that some (or even a lot) of monogamous people are insecure.

It's that it is one's monogamous "wiring" that makes them insecure.

Making that claim contributes to the us vs. them mentality and further enhances an insecure monogamist's belief that polyamory is threatening. If you want to try and calm people down and reassure them that polyamory isn't threatening, making statements that encourage a belief that, fundamentally, poly and monogamous people are different species who view things in totally different ways isn't the way to do it.

People are often afraid of what's different. By saying that we are a totally separate group of people who see things in fundamentally different ways, not only is that not true, but it creates that sense of Fear Of What's Different, and those people who are afraid of What's Different are the ones reacting to polyamory as if its a threat to their own relationships.

Monogamous people can be insecure, but they can also be secure. Poly people can be secure, but they can also be insecure (and it's been my personal observation that a great number of poly people are just as insecure as monogamous people).
I get that just fine. But at the same time-attacking a minority (and in THIS forum mono IS the minority) is NOT going to get that point across. It's only going to promote the idea that poly people are assholes.

There is a way to make the point without being a jerk about it AND actually do so WHILE making the point that one IS caring, compassionate and sensitivve to the other persons needs. IN MY EXPERINCE that goes a LOT further in getting your point across then "yelling" at someone about how wrong they are.
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