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  #21  
Old 07-01-2012, 12:48 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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This may be less a case of gender differences than it is of sentence structure. GG, you seem to go off on stream of consciousness jaunts from time to time, and when you write in your own personal shorthand you are difficult to follow.
Fair 'nuff. I can see that.

GG
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  #22  
Old 07-01-2012, 01:15 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Originally Posted by feelyunicorn View Post
Directly asking for what you want - whether it be a kiss, sex, or verbal approval - has been slandered, and maligned as 'unromantic' at best, if not downright rude.

In characteristic hetero-mono-normative can`t win, asking for consent is considered too pansy for men; and, too assertive for women. A real man is supposed to just 'take what he wants', and a lady is supposed to 'wait for Mr. Right'. In other words, hetero-mono-normativity claims passive-aggressiveness to be Holy Grail in getting what you want out of a relationship.
I don't see this as true at all. In fact, it is usually considered a standard that a man won't know what a woman wants unless she tells him. Now, some women do that telling in a roundabout flirty way, and others more directly. But I have never seen asking for what one wants as something that is slandered, maligned, or considered rude - unless the person asking is simply just a rude, obnoxious person who may be asking as a formality but clearly feels entitled to what they want.

In my life of mostly monogamy, I've always asked for what I want. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't; sometimes asking is appreciated, sometimes it isn't. What's the big deal? I see no reason to cry over it or turn it into some manifesto or protest. You can't get blood from a stone, they say, so I either move on and try with someone else or fine-tune and improve my method of asking.

If it's pretty consistent that people find you offensive, then it may not be the "ask" itself, but your attitude that accompanies it.
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  #23  
Old 07-01-2012, 03:47 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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I'm a big fan of directness and clarity. When I was a teenager, I dated a beautiful girl for a few months. We got into bed, I took the lead, we made out, I placed her hands on my breasts and started fondling hers. It was awesome, I thought she was into it. The next day, she admitted that we had moved way too fast for her and she hadn't known how to say so. I felt like complete shit and we broke up not too long after.

To me, talking is not a matter of how best to get what I want, it's a matter of respect for myself and the other person. I want to know that we're both having a good time, and as I learned, your perceptions of body language can be so colored by desire, or so unclear on the other person's part, that you get it wrong... and that's just not ok for anyone.
There are sexier and less sexy ways to handle talking, of course. There's "Can I touch you there?" which can be a little too weird and insecure sounding, and then there's murmuring "Is this ok?" or "Let me know if we're going too fast" or "What would you like?" or even just "All good?"
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  #24  
Old 07-01-2012, 04:26 PM
feelyunicorn feelyunicorn is offline
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Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
I'm a big fan of directness and clarity.
You`re a diamond in a rough, thank you. I`m truly surprised by the lack of positive feedback in this forum. I`ve posted the same thread elsewhere, and have gotten mostly positive 'reviews', which just goes to show how much I fit into poly. I may repost a post from someone in another forum (a woman) with due permission, because it`s an example of what I`m talking about from a female perspective.

I also think bisexual women (especially doms or switch) will be more inclined to entertain asking for consent, because there`s no Prince Charming to take responsibility for initiation for them at all times.

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Originally Posted by ksandra View Post
If you ask to kiss them then the next action has to be a kiss. For me that takes out some of the spontaneity.
Presumably, you want to if you say, Yes? Here`s something else I seem to be picking up on, you tell me if I`m wrong. It really lays bare how much of a disagreement I have with anything even remotely resembling Cinderella.

I think that asking for consent forces women to make a decision about sex, and that leaves them feeling like 'sluts' IF they are not sex-positive. I think this also addresses a couple of Ton`s posts. This is why I love asking for consent, and why most women hate the idea (vs. the reality of it).

I fear that a lot of the emphasis on 'spontaneity' and 'naturalness', etc. has to do with that fact: ladies are not supposed to actively pursue sex. They are supposed to be taken, 'swept off their feet', or whatever metaphor there is for passive-aggressive behavior.

This is why I really put myself out there about not being 'romantic' (even the word gives me the creeps). It weeds out potential partners who want to reenact some medieval story.

Don`t get me wrong, I`m one of the most affectionate and sensitive guys you`ll ever meet once you make the unambiguous, independent decision to be with me (verbally or otherwise); I`m just not interested in making that decision for you, or manipulating you in any way because then that leaves me feeling like a undesirable douche.

In essence, I think what 'romance' is, is a man picking up the slack for everything that goes on in a relationship.

In other words, 'romance' = gender double-standards. So, yeah. Asking for consent does break down gender roles and the Cinderella story to pieces. If you are in any way attached to those, I can only imagine you`d hate it.
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Last edited by feelyunicorn; 07-01-2012 at 06:09 PM.
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  #25  
Old 07-01-2012, 07:42 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Originally Posted by feelyunicorn View Post
...to consider an awkward turn of phrase a complete deal breaker also seems like insecurity on the receiver`s part.
We have a winner!

For me, if she can't speak directly to the point about what she does or does not want, not much can happen. I don't read minds and won't attempt to do so. If asking if she wants to fuck is too much for her, I've got better things to do.
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  #26  
Old 07-01-2012, 08:17 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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In essence, I think what 'romance' is, is a man picking up the slack for everything that goes on in a relationship.

In other words, 'romance' = gender double-standards. So, yeah. Asking for consent does break down gender roles and the Cinderella story to pieces. If you are in any way attached to those, I can only imagine you`d hate it.
In my definition, consent is part of the whole process of romancing. It's so intrinsic that I cannot see there being any romancing going on without consent. No consent? It's a one sided crush/infatuation/something else. Courting someone who does not want to be wooed is not romancing them.

At best it is unrequited love, and romancer backs off (hopefully) when gently turned down. At worst it gets... creepy... if they keep on insisting.

I also don't think "romance" is the man just picking up the slack for everything that goes on in a relationship any more than it is a woman picking up the slack in the relationship.

"Relationship" to me implies a flow of back and forth communication going on there. Nobody is a mind reader. The people romancing each other have to actually communicate. To me, "communication" is so intrinsic to me in '"relationship" -- there's just no real relationship at all if there's no real communication at all. Does not compute.

GG
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  #27  
Old 07-01-2012, 08:54 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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I think romance is the little things that show you think about one another. Picking up a gift for someone, for no specific reason, just to see the smile on their face when you give it to them. Doing little gestures for them for similar reasons. Just hugging them and staying like that.

I think the reason I see romance as being largely unspoken is because I see it as having much more of a physical component, of it being about actions. I don't think it's quite the same calling up someone and asking if they want you to get flowers for them or doing it as a surprise, for instance.
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  #28  
Old 07-01-2012, 09:42 PM
feelyunicorn feelyunicorn is offline
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Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
We have a winner!

For me, if she can't speak directly to the point about what she does or does not want, not much can happen. I don't read minds and won't attempt to do so. If asking if she wants to fuck is too much for her, I've got better things to do.
THANK YOU!!!

Now I don`t feel so alone and misunderstood. The whole idea of 'spontaneous' and 'natural' is never complete without first asking the question: "Spontaneous and natural to whom? Romantic to whom?"

And the answer is...to women! That`s who! Of course! I`ve met my share of men who are slam-dunk Prince Charmings and would have it no other way. They like to pursue, they like to give gifts, and flowers, and compliments, and pull chairs...they love to break a woman`s resistance down, and have complete mastery over the interpretion of mixed signals. They are tall, bronze, chiseled. They abhor women who are 'easy'. Lord have mercy if a woman were to even entertain the possibility of directly saying "yes" to anything intimate!

The whole process of seduction makes them feel like they`ve conquered something special, and boosts their self-esteem a thousand-fold. I can totally see it... Even those men, do not describe the whole ordeal as 'spontaneous.' What it is is a lot of work. That`s what it is ...no matter how validated and macho they feel in the end.

---------

Well, good on them. To me, it`s completely counter-intuitive and ego-damaging to have someone resist me and want me at the same time? Call me gay. When I deal with guys that`s not even a thought. Either you want it, or you don`t. Simple.

----------

Edit: I must say, in the end, I envy them (The Prince Charmings). They seem really confident, always smiley, and true ladiesmen. But, what makes me really really confused is that they aren`t statistically more successful with women than I. Whenever I talk to them, I can`t help by chuckle at the number of women they say they`ve been with. And, there they are, giving me advice on how to pick up chicks and shit.

Why?? Can someone answer me? Topsy-turvy world.

---------------

Edit2: It is true that they pick up more attractive women than I do. Although, I`ve had my moments.
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Last edited by feelyunicorn; 07-01-2012 at 10:25 PM.
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  #29  
Old 07-01-2012, 10:50 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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How do you know what their success rate is? If you only know the number of successes, and not the number of tries, you can't really know. It could be that they have an extremely high rate of success but are also pickier about their partners to begin with, for instance, or aren't interested in many people.

In other words, I don't think it's a pure number thing. I think they go for what they deem to be quality over quantity (otherwise why would they want a long courting period and effort over some period of time? If they just wanted sex with many women, they could see several of them in the time it probably takes them to court one slowly).
Now, obviously tastes vary so I don't think one can agree on what "quality" is, it's not as obvious as "quantity".

But I think a lot of people see someone who has been with one person all their life and think it's the ultimate success "getting it right from the first try", while other think in numbers of partners, and the two viewpoints are so completely different that I'm not sure how they can be compared. Depending on the way you look at it, who is the "winner" and who is the "loser" will change.
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  #30  
Old 07-02-2012, 03:35 AM
feelyunicorn feelyunicorn is offline
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Originally Posted by Tonberry View Post
But I think a lot of people see someone who has been with one person all their life and think it's the ultimate success "getting it right from the first try", while other think in numbers of partners, and the two viewpoints are so completely different that I'm not sure how they can be compared. Depending on the way you look at it, who is the "winner" and who is the "loser" will change.
Truer words have never been spoken.

The reason I know is because my friends tell me how many women they`ve been with. And, trust me, they hit on women way more than I do. I actually feel a lot pickier than them. But, that`s probably not true.

It takes me A LOT to get out of my comfort zone and hit on a girl. Whenever I do, I`m almost certain of 'success' (hereby defined as, getting to third base). The difference is; I`m pickier success-wise, they are pickier princess-wise. But, that also refers mostly to the past. Before I became a habitual john. Say, 3 years ago, when I was still living in New York City where prostitution is illegal, and where I used to go out a lot to pick up girls at bars and nightclubs.

My go out buddy then, was more successful numbers-wise than me. He`s the only guy I know who`s as filthy as I am. He`s probably been with as many women as I, but mostly without paying. Although, we did that together too!

The more I compare myself to them, the more confused I become about where I stand in the ladiesmen pecking order. I probably couldn`t handle the truth! Good or bad!
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Last edited by feelyunicorn; 07-02-2012 at 04:02 AM.
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