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  #21  
Old 12-02-2009, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I will also note that whenever I have challenged a statement or opinion that has been offensive to my fundamental values, I have never EVER personally held it against the person making the statement, regardless of whether a person perceives it that way or not.

We're all adults here.
But if they don't percieve it-then you have not communicated with them and if you haven't communicated with them-you have only strengthened THEIR "theoretically false" knowledge and sent them back into the world with it-which means that they will promote that which you were trying to stop in the first place....
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  #22  
Old 12-02-2009, 08:39 PM
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While I disagreed with Ceoli's final conclusion, I do understand her motive and reasoning. Her main goal seem to be removing excuses for sterotyping and encourage self reflection. I think we all agree with those motives.
Yes, absolutely!

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Unfortunately, it was seen more as a personal attack than it was meant to be. Ceoli kept saying that it was not a personal attack and Mono's comments were an example of the issue. I don't think Ceoli meant it as an attack, though I can see why some would see it that way.
Yes on this one as well!

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Part of this issue is the way we reach decisions. Ceoli is following rational lines of thinking to avoid contradiction and to verify her thinking. Mono's statement bothered her while it didn't bother anyone else too much. So she discussed it in a way that is more provable than emotional. But since most people were not bothered by his comment, that line of argument sounded too confrontational.
Personally-I didn't find it too confrontational. When other posters "jumped on the bandwagon" I found THAT overly confrontational. However-my point is that if she really wanted to fully understand Mono-that's a wholly different thing then trying to stop marginalization. EITHER of which really requires full comprehension of both parties as to the other parties TRUE meaning, intent BEFORE any changes can be made which requires deeper communication and that CERTAINLY didn't happen in the "argument/conversation/talk/posting".

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I find that if I am going to argue against someone's word, I try to get them to state it very clearly. Like I will say, "Are you saying that....?" A lot of the time, I find that people will not like the way i have it paraphrased and will correct it. That can avoid some arguments from the start.
That's exactly what we've been working on in communication classes and it makes a HUGE difference. As a rule of thumb we take it for granted that we all understand each other-but the truth is-that we most often do not. Mono actually took to task BOTH Ceoli AND Redpepper for not understanding at all. So CLEARLY there was NOT communication going on. EVEN THOUGH I do believe all three of THOSE people WERE trying to communicate-it wasn't happening.

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I see this stuff like dealing with family. Sometimes we argue, but ultimately, we all care.
I agree here as well-at least as a general rule of thumb. Which is why I felt inclined to point out that SHOWING we care should come first. As our counselor says "connect before correct". In other words (still his) you must make a caring emotional connection to a person BEFORE you try to correct them, or they will shut down for self-preservation and all hope to communicate and facilitate change is lost.
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  #23  
Old 12-02-2009, 08:40 PM
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This was a beaitiful post, it's too bad the message was missed.
It wasn't missed Mono.
Thanks for noticing.
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  #24  
Old 12-02-2009, 08:47 PM
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Interestingly enough, I had intended to start a similar thread - more based on the above quote. Because I think (if I'm reading LR right) this was her intention to express. Despite what she said, what examples she may have chose to use, what words etc, I THINK I got her message ?
And I think it's an important one !
Yes-and GS I apologize (to everyone really) if it was hard to understand. I'm medicated and in a LOT of pain right now. I actually told Maca-"wow I am not clearheaded enough for this right now" but I couldn't NOT say something. It's not MY nature.

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Especially in a public forum.
We're all here to learn from and help each other - subscribers & visitors alike.
And it's a given that no group of people are all going to agree all the time - especially on complex topics. That's ok.
Absolutely. There are a number of things that leave me with eyebrow raised on here. But those things also get me thinking. If I have questions I ask. I DO get that Ceoli felt the need to defend against marginalization. I don't know exactly what the other person (whose login I can't recall started with a J I think) had as a purpose. But the point I wanted to make is it CAN be done with love and compassion. Not JUST logic.

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But I think sometimes it's just enough to say "Ok - let's agree to disagree"
And smile at each other. And let it go. We can all get the concept that there may be other possibilities in the world and are totally free to pursue those at our leisure.
Maybe we ALL can't? I have to admit to wondering sometimes if some people just can't grasp that...Not just HERE, just generally I admit I sometimes wonder.

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I guess I just think that there's a kinder, gentler way to navigate in the world and that if we put that first on our agenda - everyone gains.
Bold and underlines by me-THAT is exactly what I was saying.

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I hate to see conversations take turns like some of these have. It really isn't necessary. I see the potential and have seen it a bazillions time before. I try to head it off when I see it coming (and got myself in deep do-do here for it).
But maybe this is the "good" that came of it.
A reminder to us all to be a little kinder,gentler, a little more empathetic.
As I think I mentioned to someone......passion and strong ideologies are double edged blades. They truly cut both ways
.
Bold, underline and italics added by me.

Thanks for the help GS. I needed help trying to communicate MY thoughts!
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  #25  
Old 12-02-2009, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post

*sigh* It is not you disagreeing with me that is important, Ceoli. It is your unwillingness to accept that we disagree that causes me concern.

I'm sorry my old friend. You seem to bring a shadow with you when you approach me now. It is not a shadow of truth that inspires me anymore..it is a shadow of negativity which pushes to evoke emotional responses that would only discredit my beliefs and knowledge of myself. There is little love in that, no prompting for expanding my ideas. I have extended my hand and gave you words of credit because I respect your opinions. You apparently do not respect my own although I am clear that they are in fact my own.

I am well aware I do not travel in the same poly circles as you. But I live poly on a day to day basis, dealing with issues that can help others from the perspective of a family that is out there. We have a perspective that many do not have but will want to hear because the same challenges are in their future.

I am trying to focus on ways to prevent lines being re-enforced in the sand between poly and mono approaches to loving. But there are differences and it is all of our challenge to overcome those differences. Some will do this on paper or in theory others will do this by example. Extending hands to embrace the validity and beauty of all loving styles is how I see acceptance being achieved. Not in pointing out weaknesses, but in recognizing strengths.

Take care Ceoli
Peace and Love
Mono

Ditto. Bolding and underlining by me.
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  #26  
Old 12-02-2009, 09:01 PM
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It's a really difficult thing for me to disengage my feelings from discussions on here,- in fact I really can't, because lots of you have made your mark in my life, and I care about continuing those relationships and having a safe place to talk about things poly-related in a supportive environment.
Yes, I think this is common for many people. We KNOW that there ARE people on the "otherside" of the computer. We may not know ALL about them-but we know SOMETHING about them and that something touches our lives. Not much different than someone who has bond with sending money to "a starving child in another country" through any of many programs that set you up to do that for a specific child. You don't know ALL about the child-but you know that they exist and you grow to care for them in some manner even if it's not the same manner you care for those you see in person.

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I know I tend to be offended either when someone challenges something dear to me, or some process I'm in the thick of that I am not ready to be objective about. The people posting on here that I know, I can take with a grain of salt, because I know they have knowledge of me and my situations beyond the quote they are citing. I know that I could always be wrong, and usually if my hackles are up, there's a reason that's largely internal that I feel so fierce about it.
Well put.

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It's mentioned quite a lot on these threads how it's just the internet, and how silly it is to get riled and emotional looking at a computer screen with little icons for people you've never shared air with. But I am not the machine I'm working with. I do get really emotional because I share some pretty fucking personal things on here, and I'm always grateful for the diversity of perspectives that challenge my evolution and also the goosing and pats on the back I get that make me feel supported.
yes-but if we feel attacked within this "community" we also need to feel protected within this community-yes?



Which of you said (ceoli or ygirl? sorry I don't recall) that while you are poly you don't love everyone?

I guess for me the issue is-that we can't stop the prejudice against our group until we are willing to be LOVING to every group. Treating someone with love isn't the same as falling in love-I know that. It is however a key in showing them that like them-we DO TRULY love and we aren't "just fucking around" and that in being loving to them-we aren't NOT loving our SO's AND we are in fact helping our SO's AND them too...
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  #27  
Old 12-02-2009, 09:03 PM
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Rarechild-I'm glad the thread makes you happy. At least it made someone happy.
Honestly-I still feel sad. But I do see WHY you would be happy about it (I think).
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  #28  
Old 12-02-2009, 09:19 PM
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I haven't had a chance to read all this as I have just had a job evaluation and other stressful things have occurred but I have a story to relay that points out to me what I have been feeling in all this. I have no idea if it fits here, but I gotta get it out as I finally have some way of explaining how I feel.

I have several clients that I work with that look much younger and act much younger than their age. We go out often on the bus and as I live in a city where there are a lot of older people we quite often get talking on the bus as we are all regulars. Usually it's about the weather or events around town, stuff we can all relate to, but when they feel more comfortable they start asking questions about my clients.

This is where I apologize in advance as I don't mean to slot anyone into any spot here, and hope you realize that it is an EXAMPLE.

So recently someone asked me if I was taking my daughter to an event that day. I said no, she is not my daughter actually and she my client with a developmental disability/delay. The woman looked confused and continued to keep talking about retarded people. I continued talking with her, modeling all the while the appropriate words to use to replace "retarded..." that to me was the respectful way to do it considering she was learning, an older woman (say 75) and felt comfortable enough to talk to us.

I have felt in the past that people have respected my process and given me an open door to talk and ask questions when they have empathized with the fact that I am new to something. I have felt respected when I am met where I am at. I was considering this when talking with this woman. I was making my point, but not standing up in the bus and telling her what she said was wrong in front of the whole population of the bus.

On these forums I feel sometimes that we forget that we are a group that is on display. I also find that sometimes people take a road rage approach to speaking, as if we are not real people. I consider that when I am spoken to that way and take things with a grain of salt. If we were all sitting on a bus, as in my story, we would talk to each other differently I would hope. We would see body language, would notice if someone was being triggered or having emotions, and we would certainly stand up for values and beliefs we believe in... we are not though and I, for one, need to remember that. I need to ask if someone meant to say something the way they did, ask if it is okay to start a thread on what someone just said because it spoke to me of a bigger issue and communicate from a place of being interested to know what is going on for someone rather than a place of needing to get my point across.

I have found that I eventually create change in people by asking questions, and using the language and value system I hold so dear. Not by showing them up in front of their friends when they are most vulnerable in their "toilet paper on the foot" situation. I would think that if someone say ME, with toilet paper on my shoe they would come over, pull me aside and ask, did you mean to keep that toilet paper on your shoe? Just thought you should know it was there.
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  #29  
Old 12-02-2009, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
ETA: it's "fallacy" not "phallacy". "Fallacy" derives from the word "false" and a "phallus" is a male sexual organ. I was a spelling-bee regional winner when I was a kid and I couldn't just ignore this one.
Om my !! Is our classic Freudian slip showing here or what !
Priceless !!!
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  #30  
Old 12-02-2009, 10:10 PM
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I myself really like a "phallacy" or two among friends.

Not that my spelling coach would've approved, but she's not here . . . at least I HOPE she's not here!
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