Poly, Voyeurism and Porn

[Scott]

Wow. Thanks for all the positive replies; was kind of nervous of what people would think of my thread, laugh :-). Will get to individual posts now...

[LovingRadiance]

I prefer photos over videos personally.
But, I'm not opposed to my partners watching videos and I have watched a few with them.
Generally I get stuck staring dumbfoundedly when the sounds, words, music whatever don't correlate for crap with the actions. That leaves me at a loss for interest and certainly not moving into "turned on" mode.

But, there have been a few over the years that I could lose myself in the obvious enjoyment of the participants.

It's not classified as porn, but the movie Better Than Chocolate was an assigned film for a class I just took this summer. I LOVED the sex scene in it between the two female main characters. It was so damn obvious by the facial expressions that they were enjoying the activity. THAT turned me on beyond belief and led to a great personal experience with my husband.

I get turned on by sincere enjoyment, it doesn't generally matter what it is that they're doing-as long as everyone whose participating is enjoying it. I can enjoy watching a BDSM scene, or lovemaking, guy on girl, guy on guy, or girl on girl, or more than 2 groups as well. But, I'm not excited if they aren't all VISIBLY enjoying the activity.

[kbrooks]

I think even though I like watching it, porn in general is created within a framework of majority -isms and -supremacies. Porn enables and reinforces them, even if the porn in question isn't mainstream porn.

-isms affected:

sexism (attitudes around unconsensual dominance / submissiveness: boy dominates, girl submits. A MUST for them to do)
racism (only shows white people)
heterosexism (either only shows straight people, or copies what straight people do)

-supremacies affected:

male supremacy (shows male attitudes that entirely dominate the scene of porn, e.g. kissing just being 'foreplay')
cis supremacy (not very many trans* in porn)

[Scott]

Originally Posted by km34

I tend to watch the higher-budget, bad plot line porn (like the Pirates ones).

The Pirates ones? Link maybe :-)?

Originally Posted by km34

I don't like the 100% sex, grungy looking stuff.

I think of grungy as icky so I'd agree on that basis, laugh :-p. I also don't like 'just sex'. I want a story line behind it all. That being said, I find that most of the story lines feel phony; I just can't get into them. Ok, here's going out on a limb and saying specific site material that I've liked; -some- of College F*ck fest. -Some- of Bang Bros stuff.. some of it is really.. bad.. I remember reading a critique about their 'bang bus', which despite what they made it look like, was apparently all paid female performers; there is a twist in it though. But a lot of it atleast seems -real-, as opposed to 'ok, this is what you're going to say and then you have sex' type thing.. and everyone just kind of mouthing off their lines and you can almost feel the 'when is this going to be over so i can get my cash' type thing. I think the best stuff is some of the amateurish web cam stuff. Unfortunately, it's hard to find what I think of as the really good stuff.

Originally Posted by km34

I don't think porn is bad in general. I think most people in the industry choose to be there, and by discriminating a wee bit about which companies you support you can feel pretty darn confident that there isn't any coercion going on.

Bang Bros is the only company I'm even really aware of; although maybe College F*** Fest is a company as well? It's not something I've really thought of too much, but I'm certainly interested in learning more.

Originally Posted by km34

Think about how many porn performers in recent years have become almost brand-like (Jenna Jameson and Ron Jeremy off the top of my head). They are taking their sexuality and owning it. Nothing wrong with that.

I agree although... atleast in the case of Ron Jeremy.. I read an article on him; a reporter basically followed him about and reported on what he said. I felt he was a man who had a kind heart but he had a really hard time focusing on his own life.. and even one of his girlfriends (I seem to think that he had 2 at the time) seemed to be with him in part just to use him as a connection to get into the porn business; really seemed kind of sad :-/. The other girlfriend seemed to be better though. I wish I could remember where I read this so I could check whether this was how it was or whether my imagination has added details that were never there to begin with -.-. I also remember an article on porn from the New Yorker titled "The Money Shot" (available online for a fee here: http://www.newyorker.com/archive/199...ARDS_000372412), that painted a rather sad picture of the role of most male performers in conventional porn.

Originally Posted by km34

A lot of the bigger name performers are also highly educated people who have made the choice to go into a field that is very lucrative. I know Lexington Steele has at least one master's degree (possibly two?) and used to work on Wall Street.

Cool. The names that I remember best are Ron Jeremy, the wife of the french president, Carla Bruni, who didn't do much more then some naked pictures, but memorable because she is now, ofcourse, wife of the french president. And Sasha Grey, who was just 18 when she started and was involved in something of a firestorm of controversy because of it. In terms of her porn stuff, she seems to go for harder stuff then I'm comfortable with, but I definitely think she's beautiful. She actually did a movie called "The Girlfriend Experience", where she plays an escort who acts out intimate relationships with her clients while she also has a real boyfriend.

Originally Posted by km34

(And right now I feel like I know a lot about porn stars... lol)

Seems like it, laugh :-)

Originally Posted by km34

To me, porn is anything that actually portrays sex acts - masturbation, oral, PIV or anal intercourse. So, any videos that show the actual penis going somewhere or the actual vagina being stimulated = porn. Any books/magazines that describe sex acts in detail = porn. A movie that has a sex scene done under covers = not porn because it isn't explicitly shown to be happening, it is implied by their movements/other behaviors.

Ok. I think that's the legal definition of it? For me.. I'm not sure if I really want to nail it down.. I think I may definite it differently depending on who I'm speaking with, laugh :-)

[Mudita]

I'm more for user submitted videos than porn, produced movies look like people having bad sex to me.

What's interesting is how people are now mimicking porn in their own sex which is a bit of a worry.

No question there is a lot of exploitation and generally unattractive things about the whole industry but I think this is a product of societies repressive attitude towards sex rather than anything inherently wrong with porn.

You'd have to think the explosion of porn will make sex a bit less taboo and hopefully this will feed back into the kind of porn that gets produced.

Hopefully if people lose some of their hangups about sex, they might lose some of their hangups about sexual exclusivity as well...

[Scott]

Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray

What I tend to consider "good" porn is halfway decent production, safe and responsible responsible companies (I LIKE to see condoms used) and I generally like parodies that are poking fun of themselves as much as the original.

The use of condoms is something I've definitely thought about. Coming from my perspective; whenever I've used condoms with a partner, I've never been able to get off. Why this was so, I don't know. What I do know is that, perhaps in part because of this, I really like seeing the -non- use of condoms. I'm all for them doing STD tests and all that and it's not a killer if they use a condom, but I much prefer the non use.

Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray

I don't like porn that has really crappy production, takes itself too seriously, or portrays humiliating, violent, or other demeaning scenarios.

Agreed. Where I have a little bit of a moral dilemna is that sometimes I really like a bit of reluctance. And it's not just the female that I enjoy seeing a bit of reluctance in at times. Again, I imagine that it's something internal; as in, I myself get nervous in this type of thing, and so, for me atleast, there can definitely be something erotic in reluctantism (probably not a word, but what the hell :-p).

Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray

I want the porn I watch to portray consensual fun, since that's what I practice and what I get off on.

I agree; reluctance is ok, but the consent has to be there (albeit reluctantly given at times). What really does it for me is if, -after- the reluctance, they really get into it.

Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray

ETA: A sense of humor, whether in porn or during sex, is a MUST. Porn is funny. Sex is funny. If you can't laugh at/during sex imo you're probably taking things WAY too seriously and not actually having fun, which is generally (as I see it) the point.

I agree :-). I also kind of see it as sacred. I've noticed in the meetup forums that "sacred sexuality" is a big key term, so I guess I'm not alone in this idea. That's not to say it can't be funny (and it can definitely be great to be funny sometimes; admittedly, I don't have any personal examples, but oh the videos you can see online sometimes :-p), but if I get to choose the way I die, I'd probably want sexuality to be involved somehow.. it is, to me, the absolute best part of living and while I may not be able to take it with me, I'd atleast like to be with it to the very end.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by RainyGrlJenny

I don't really have a problem with porn. My personal tastes tend to run towards that which has a little more of a plot, at least a facade of romance, and usually features w/w or m/m action

Cool, heh :-). I too want a plot. But, so far atleast, the only plots that I've found to be really good are generally the unscripted ones; as in, they may be told 'ok, you're going to do a porn scene', but atleast one of the participants has license to kind of just ad hoc things. I also really enjoy some clearly amateur stuff where no one's on a script; the whole thing is spontaneous.

Originally Posted by RainyGrlJenny

I'm not particularly kinky, and portrayal of non-consensual acts are not appealing to me either.

Same.

Originally Posted by RainyGrlJenny

I also enjoy amateur porn. I think real bodies with real people bumbling around having a good time and wanting to share it is very sexy.

Aye :-)

Originally Posted by RainyGrlJenny

However, I lean more towards erotic literature. I'm like that in general - I like movies, but I'd rather read a book.

I really have liked some erotic literature but I've found that it's really hard to find erotic literature that I like. I'm a (non paying) member of storiesonline.net. I hadn't checked it out in a while, but I decided to give it another try today and yeah, there is some good stuff there for sure. Still, I think I like to vary it a bit; some reading, some video.

Originally Posted by RainyGrlJenny

Regardless, I think that, like much of the world, most porn is fine, produced by consenting adults who choose to be a part of that realm of entertainment. I think it would be a hoot to act in a porno! Unfortunately, I'm a teacher and have to be a little careful about that kind of thing, so it will have to wait until I retire. I wonder if there's a market for geriatric porn?

There definitely is, lol :-). I've thought that, on the whole, we want to see people in porn who we can relate to (or atleast I do), and I personally would much rather see porn of people who I actually -know- instead of strangers; never happened but maybe one day. The famous 'home recording' thing perhaps, lol :-). I guess a lot of people worry about a vengeful ex posting it online; not something I personally would ever do though; if I dislike something a partner did, I'd mention -that-, not upload something that had nothing to do with it.

Originally Posted by RainyGrlJenny

My definition of porn is a visual product (photo or video) where the main purpose is to incite or stimulate sexual feelings and behaviors.

Hm.. so could movies that don't show penises going places still qualify as porn for you?

Originally Posted by RainyGrlJenny

BTW, my favorite part of that video you posted was the dancing dildos!

Lol :-).

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Tonberry

What I like the most is actually reading porn, not watching it. But your question was about watching so I'll focus on that.

Actually, I didn't mean to imply that I was just interested in porn videos/pictures. I'm glad that you mentioned your primary interest in erotic literature, as have others, it's actually made me think about it again after a fairly long hiatus.

Originally Posted by Tonberry

I do watch porn, although not very often. I need to be in the right mood for it. In my opinion, porn is good if you don't abuse it, like most of life's pleasures. For instance studies show that porn availability correlates with decrease in rapes.
Not that I think most people would rape others to begin with, but it fits with my use for it, which is for release when I'm under sexual pressure.

I find that I'm under sexual pressure or what not almost every night, laugh :-). I also think it's great. This doesn't mean that it could ever replace having a real partner, but as the old saying goes, "beggars can't be choosers", and porn, whether literature or video/pictures, is a hell of a lot better then nothing at all in my book.

Originally Posted by Tonberry

It differs from my enjoyment of written porn, which I do for completely different reasons. I feel like all books should have the sex scenes in them, so to me erotic books are just the way normal books should be. Same with movies, really, I have always found it weird when the whole point of a story or plot point is the relationship between two people, and when they finally get together it's cut the second they start kissing, then we see them after the fact. If it's relevant to the story, why do you cut it out? It feels to me like replacing every marriage scene with them arriving in the car, then leaving in the car the next second, skipping the character development that could happen in the meantime.

I couldn't agree with you more :-). Unfortunately, because of the society we live in, that's not to be for conventional fair; if you don't want a triple x or what not rating, you've got to follow "the rules".

Originally Posted by Tonberry

But for movies, I understand that actual people are involved, so I find it less of a problem. For books, though, cutting it out feels to me like I'm reading the censored version of a better book. It annoys me.

Yeah. You know, though, sometimes authors are pretty good at slighly putting in some sexual stuff that you'd think wouldn't make it past the censors. I'm thinking of the ending to "His Dark Materials" Trilogy, which my niece gave to me. For those not familiar with the series, the first book was made into a kids movie:
The Golden Compass (trailer)

Originally Posted by Tonberry

Sadly, erotic books can have the opposite problem of being focused too much on sex, but fortunately, not all of them do, often it's a very minor part of the story.

Agreed. I've really liked the work of C(elia) S. Friedman. Not too many sex scenes, but when she does them, they're -good- :-). I've read almost all of her work, though I skipped the book that she did as part of someone else's series (I only want to read Celia's work, not her work in someone else's series -.-).

Originally Posted by Tonberry

For all media, I have an issue with finding things that do it for me. Books written for women tend to have an emphasis on cunnilingus or fingering, neither of which I like, and lack fellatio, which is my favourite. Videos tend to feature men who don't look enough like men I know to allow me to fantasize about them (I'm usually too busy thinking about how much these huge penises would hurt me) and lack focus on the men's faces as they orgasm, and the males aren't noisy enough.

Yeah, video really seems to focus on the women most of the time...

Originally Posted by Tonberry

For visual porn, I also prefer material that doesn't feature females. I started by watching handjob videos, and in one of them there was a second man who started giving a blowjob, and I suddenly realised that gay material would be perfect... I thought. It still tends to emphasize big penises and show the penis at the time of climax rather than the face.

I think that once again, it may be focused for a male audience that generally tends to like that type of thing. Now I -am- a male, but I tend to want to -also- see a woman's face, not just 'neck down' or what not. For a long time, I've thought that the best thing to be able to see in a climax and at many other points is facial expressions and eyes of the person you're attracted to, as well as the sounds (real ones, not edited in later).

Originally Posted by Tonberry

Also for all media, they tend to lack realism. The erotic books tend to have idealized pink unicorn versions of sex where the woman always comes several time, the last at the same time as the guy, and the videos or comics tend to have very specific body types that aren't that common, and cut off some important parts. And neither have nearly enough fumbling around and laughing about it.

Agreed, laugh :-). I'm willing to forgo that if it's still pretty good though ;-).

[km34]

I don't really agree that consent has to be obvious in the film itself. Some BDSM play and such doesn't have visual consent during the act - it is pre-discussed. So, films portraying that sort of interaction would want to have a true feel to it.

What about rape fantasies? Making a porn that portrays a fake rape isn't actually rape. It's someone agreeing to act like he/she is being violated while actually engaging in a consensual sex act for the camera.

I have no desire to watch either of those kinds of porn, but I don't have a problem with them being made and put out there for people who enjoy watching that kind of stuff.


Oh, and the Pirates ones I mentioned earlier -

Pirates XXX and Pirates II: Stagnetti's Revenge are fairly well-made films - they actually released versions that were rated R by taking out the sex scenes. Not a movie I'd watch just because (I mean, porn actors aren't really known for their ability to act in non-sexual scenes), but good.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by GalaGirl

what you think of porn in general?

It's long had a place in human history.

what does porn mean to you and why do you define it this way?

It's a pitstop on the spectrum of "erotic materials." From lightweight comics to hardcore movies. Somewhere there's a shift from "erotic" to "soft porn" to "hard core porn" and I think every person has their own spectrum analysis.

Just like in sex. What I might find "soft" someone else may find "hard or kinky."

Definitely. Ofcourse now I want to know what you'd categorize as soft and what you'd categorize as hard, laugh :-). But I understand that may be a tad too personal ;-).

Originally Posted by GalaGirl

whether you think all porn is bad, or if you (like me) think there's good (feminist even) porn and bad porn?

Some's good, some's badly made.

Some floats my boat, some doesn't.

Some is feministy and some ain't. It's been a long time since I subscribed to Bust Magazine but I remember the last page was the "one handed read"

Lol :-). It seems from what you're saying that you are therefore.. lesbian?

Originally Posted by GalaGirl

and the qualities that make porn good or bad.

I incline to written word, and for images? Fine art end of things - think coffee table books that are well produced. Vintage stereocards. Paintings, sculpture, etc. I also enjoy natural shots of real people. I miss Yellow Silk magazine. Sigh.

Aww :-).

Originally Posted by GalaGirl

If I'm going to watch a movie, it is rare. But if so? Feminist porn awards is my go to list to search for new titles.

http://goodforher.com/feminist_porn_awards

Had a look there.. didn't really see a list of movies to see.. probably just couldn't find the right link there.

Originally Posted by GalaGirl

I like decent production, care in creation. Be it a book or a movie or whatever. Could be the greatest story but please get editor and deal with typos, designer to do a decent book jacket. YKWIM?

Yeah, heh :-)

Originally Posted by GalaGirl

I enjoy people that seem to love what they do in their work. Well written prose, natural bodies, diversity of bodies, personalities, etc.

To me, sex is a celebration, a pleasure, a joy, a function of the body.

Objectification is dehumanizing, so I really don't want to see porn that treats people as things. But as people.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by GalaGirl

I esp enjoy when the movie includes cast interviews/commentary and the cast clearly had a good time making the project. Or there's introduction, foreward, or afterward that show the authors enjoyed contributing to a collection or had a good time making the print media item.

GG

Again, agreed. I really don't see that too much in porn though; which is another reason that I like hearing from Sasha Grey; as mentioned previously, not really into her style of porn (too masochistic for me), but I love the fact that she can -talk- about it, what she likes in porn, what she doesn't, etc., on youtube and such.