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  #11  
Old 12-02-2009, 04:21 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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The cycle continues
Mono - no no no ! <wink> <spank>
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  #12  
Old 12-02-2009, 04:26 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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If I were walking around with my fly unzipped or a giant booger stuck to my face, I'd appreciate it if someone would tell me. I promise that I will not be offended that you were checking me out enough to notice it. The same thing goes if I say something that draws a conclusion from a fundamental flaw in logic.

"Love" is not about perpetuating each other's denial.

I also don't "love" EVERYONE just because I can love more than one person at the same time.

Good day.

ETA: it's "fallacy" not "phallacy". "Fallacy" derives from the word "false" and a "phallus" is a male sexual organ. I was a spelling-bee regional winner when I was a kid and I couldn't just ignore this one.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 12-02-2009 at 04:38 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-02-2009, 04:38 PM
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MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
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*sigh* It is not you disagreeing with me that is important, Ceoli. It is your unwillingness to accept that we disagree that causes me concern.

I'm sorry my old friend. You seem to bring a shadow with you when you approach me now. It is not a shadow of truth that inspires me anymore..it is a shadow of negativity which pushes to evoke emotional responses that would only discredit my beliefs and knowledge of myself. There is little love in that, no prompting for expanding my ideas. I have extended my hand and gave you words of credit because I respect your opinions. You apparently do not respect my own although I am clear that they are in fact my own.

I am well aware I do not travel in the same poly circles as you. But I live poly on a day to day basis, dealing with issues that can help others from the perspective of a family that is out there. We have a perspective that many do not have but will want to hear because the same challenges are in their future.

I am trying to focus on ways to prevent lines being re-enforced in the sand between poly and mono approaches to loving. But there are differences and it is all of our challenge to overcome those differences. Some will do this on paper or in theory others will do this by example. Extending hands to embrace the validity and beauty of all loving styles is how I see acceptance being achieved. Not in pointing out weaknesses, but in recognizing strengths.

Take care Ceoli
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  #14  
Old 12-02-2009, 04:55 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post


I am trying to focus on ways to prevent lines being re-enforced in the sand between poly and mono approaches to loving.
DUDE! I can't believe you don't see that this is exactly what you WERE doing when you said "It's interesting that a mono mind sees [that book] one way and a poly mind sees it another way" I admit i'm paraphrasing but that's what started this whole tangent. And Ceoli chose to take that STATEMENT and explore it in a thread. You chose to take that as an attack.

It is interesting how a mono mind can perceive something as an "attack" while a poly mind perceives the same thing as "being true to oneself".


See those words in BOLD? That statement DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. It makes no difference if you're you and I'm me. You could switch around the words "mono" and "poly" and it STILL would not make sense because the cause-and-effect relationship between the premise and conclusion is non-sequitir.

I hope you realize that if I did not care or were trying to take sides, I would not even bother writing this post. I would just laugh and say "look at the silly man with the toilet paper stuck to his shoe".

You could say that I'm not being "gentle" or "empathic" enough but that would be smoke and mirrors.
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  #15  
Old 12-02-2009, 05:35 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
I have extended my hand and gave you words of credit because I respect your opinions. You apparently do not respect my own although I am clear that they are in fact my own.
And I have also done the same. However, when opinions that are your own extend to making claims about the identities of others and the experiences of others, they are not in fact "your own" then. You have done this often on this board. And perhaps you may feel victimized by my pointing that out when I see it, but that is nothing compared to how many of the claims you make lead to hurtful consequences, whether you perceive those consequences or not. It would be disingenuous for me not to call that out for the sake of "agreeing to disagree".

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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
I am well aware I do not travel in the same poly circles as you. But I live poly on a day to day basis, dealing with issues that can help others from the perspective of a family that is out there. We have a perspective that many do not have but will want to hear because the same challenges are in their future.
And I live poly on a day to day basis with very real consequences in a very real world as well that probably bears a striking resemblance to the world you live in. Perspective based on such experience is valid. Perspective based on assumptions and prejudice are not.

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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
I am trying to focus on ways to prevent lines being re-enforced in the sand between poly and mono approaches to loving. But there are differences and it is all of our challenge to overcome those differences. Some will do this on paper or in theory others will do this by example. Extending hands to embrace the validity and beauty of all loving styles is how I see acceptance being achieved. Not in pointing out weaknesses, but in recognizing strengths.
I see many of your points focusing on trying to reinforce that line in the sand between poly an mono approaches to loving. Especially when saying things like "Of course you can't understand, you're not mono wired". I really don't see how such things prevent the reinforcement of lines.

I don't know if you think everything I'm saying is in paper or in theory, but I can assure you it's not. I also live in the same world you do. I work. I have a job. I live consequences for being poly. But also, there is some very real hurt and struggle created by the very same things you claim in the posts I call into question. Sometimes that is hurt and struggle that I've experienced, sometimes it's experienced by friends of mine, but I assure you that it is not a mere academic study in logic.

By saying we should agree to disagree, you are asking me to give tacit permission to let such prejudice and marginalization continue. I can't do that. I can't "agree to disagree" with someone who makes racial slurs or misogynistic statements just because they say it's their opinion based on their experience and I need to respect their opinion and experience in that. The ironic thing is that I face that often in the anti-oppression trainings, and often we have to go back to redefine respect in such situations. And that definition has much more to do with authenticity than sparing one's feelings. Because, unfortunately, sacrificing authenticity for the sake of someone else's feelings has far worse consequences in the long run. I realize that's a more extreme example but the same mechanism is in place in a much more subtle way with the posts I call into question, whether it is intended or not. And I have always taken the time to explain where and how that mechanism is there, but often by then I'm too busy responding to accusations of attacks.

I never call into question any posts that are about your experiences that are yours. I call into question the posts where you set your experiences as a valid reason to make blanket statements and judgments about the experiences and identities of others. Laying out such principles and then qualifying it with, "but that's just my opinion" doesn't undo the marginalizing effect of such things and creates it's own hurt.

However, the point you really seem to be missing is that it's really not about you. If it was about you or anyone else who has unintentionally marginalized or invalidated an experience of mine with a post here, I would have left this board ages ago. But I find it much more human to discuss and challenge it rather than accept it. It's about staying true to some fundamental principles, whether people think those principles are worthy of staying true to or not. What you do with that is yours just the same as the fact that what I do with it is mine.

Last edited by Ceoli; 12-02-2009 at 05:39 PM.
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  #16  
Old 12-02-2009, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post

However, the point you really seem to be missing is that it's really not about you. If it was about you or anyone else who has unintentionally marginalized or invalidated an experience of mine with a post here, I would have left this board ages ago. But I find it much more human to discuss and challenge it rather than accept it. It's about staying true to some fundamental principles, whether people think those principles are worthy of staying true to or not. What you do with that is yours just the same as the fact that what I do with it is mine.
Fair enough, Ceoli. Shall we move on?
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  #17  
Old 12-02-2009, 06:37 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Not to pat myself on the back too hard, but I think we finally achieved a breakthrough. Ceoli might not agree that it's "mission accomplished", but I feel satisfied that the message I was trying to convey has been received as intended.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showp...6&postcount=68

Thank you everyone for riding this out so far.
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  #18  
Old 12-02-2009, 06:41 PM
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Not to pat myself on the back too hard, but I think we finally achieved a breakthrough. Ceoli might not agree that it's "mission accomplished", but I feel satisfied that the message I was trying to convey has been received as intended.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showp...6&postcount=68
HAHA! Definitely not mission accomplished, but point made..no blanket statements. That's a good rule for all of us
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  #19  
Old 12-02-2009, 07:12 PM
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Default This thread makes me happy

It's really nice to see the determination on the part of everyone to get these issues worked out. I'm glad you're still around, Mono.

This trifecta of threads that we're dealing with here 1 , 2, and this one have seen some really good discussion IMO about non-sequitirs, appropriate tone/ taking things personally/passive aggressive snark, and the purpose of this community and all that it entails.

There are other issues in there too, for different members, obviously lots of feelings involved.

It's a really difficult thing for me to disengage my feelings from discussions on here,- in fact I really can't, because lots of you have made your mark in my life, and I care about continuing those relationships and having a safe place to talk about things poly-related in a supportive environment.

That would be my personal answer to this point, which certainly does unveil a double standard and is something that I will have to think about:

Quote:
I also feel the need to point out a couple of double standards here: First: We have other members of this community that use pretty blunt language and are often explained and excused when that bluntness is off putting to newcomers. Yet when a new poster comes and uses a very similar blunt language, that is interpreted as inflammatory.
I know I tend to be offended either when someone challenges something dear to me, or some process I'm in the thick of that I am not ready to be objective about. The people posting on here that I know, I can take with a grain of salt, because I know they have knowledge of me and my situations beyond the quote they are citing. I know that I could always be wrong, and usually if my hackles are up, there's a reason that's largely internal that I feel so fierce about it.

It's mentioned quite a lot on these threads how it's just the internet, and how silly it is to get riled and emotional looking at a computer screen with little icons for people you've never shared air with. But I am not the machine I'm working with. I do get really emotional because I share some pretty fucking personal things on here, and I'm always grateful for the diversity of perspectives that challenge my evolution and also the goosing and pats on the back I get that make me feel supported.

Call me a hippy, but I really draw a parallel between the way discussions develop on this forum and the process that many of us are going through in our lives of refusing to give up, settle, harbor denial, be mentally stagnant, etc.
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  #20  
Old 12-02-2009, 08:19 PM
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Ok, I'm pretty sure a lot of this is directed at me, so I'm going to take some time to rant now. And I don't doubt that this rant will be the nail in the coffin for some people with regards to me, but so be it.
I don't put nails in coffins Ceoli. Ever. Not my nature. After a brutal rape-I still found it in my after the pesron changed to not only forgive, but to love and cherish that person.

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It may be hard to believe, but everything I do and post is driven out of compassion. I have a great deal of respect for every person where they're at in their journey. HOWEVER, that respect does not manifest in coddling or not speaking truth whenever I see it missing. In fact, if I were to do that, I would not be respecting the people I'm in dialogue with, I would be manipulating them. I don't do that.
The isue I see in this is that unless the person we are directing our dialogue to interprets us as caring-we are NOT communicating care and love no matter how much we may feel it. Communication is about sharing something inside of us, with someone else. IF they don't recieve that knowledge-we weren't communicating.
It's not manipulating to say "look man, I love you and I appreciate all I've learned from you it just hits a nerve in me when you say things such as (input quote here) because when you put it this way it leads one to believe that all people who are (pick your classification) can't comprehend (x,y,z). I sense that right now you are feeling defensive as the only significant Mono person whose had hte balls to stick around so many highly defensive, often on attack poly people. I'd like to discuss your statement more-when you are feeling more on even footing."
What it is, is showing that you have an opinion about the quote AND you still care about the person as an individual.

Quote:
Here's the thing: Everyone is indeed entitled to their own opinions. HOWEVER, that does NOT mean that they are entitled to put that opinion out and expect it to be free of scrutiny and challenge, ESPECIALLY when they are opinions that create or perpetuate marginalization, prejudice and stereotyping. Because there are ADDITIONAL feelings to be considered: All those people who get marginalized and stereotyped by such things. Sure they may not be here on this board (though I will say there are certainly been posts on here that marginalize me and I'm sure I'm not alone in that), but I'll be damned if I don't continue to speak when I see that marginalization getting fueled. Why? Because such people don't have the luxury or the privilege of setting that marginalization aside. They don't have a choice. Where many of us seem to have the luxury to "process" or "work through our feelings" while we continue to offer up and put out opinions that perpetuate those things without ever having to see the negative and hurtful effects of them. That seems a very selfish view to me.
I'm a bisexual, poly, married woman with a black sister, native Alaskan Ex, Puerta Rican daughter, sperm donor daughter.I know all about being marginalized up one wall and down the other. But the only way to TRULY stop hatred in any form, caused by anything is to show caring and love for EVERYONE and to be considerate of ALL people's needs. That means being able to say "wow that sentence really puts me on the defensive because of (enter damage it causes here). I know you to be a generally caring person and wonder if there is another way to put what you are trying to say? Can we talk about this further? It seems like this statement is a very damaging attack upon people of (enter description). Are you defensive? Are you angry? Are you hurt? What's going on to make you feel like you need to attack?"
Instead of just going on attack too. War makes war. Doesn't matter WHY you're at war. (oh I'm also an American which makes me fairly marginalized in the world after President Bush as well).

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I simply cannot and will not let opinions that are offensive to my fundamental values go unchallenged if they are offered up to me, whether they are offered up by my closest lover or by a complete stranger. I certainly don't take those opinions personally, but that does not change the fact that I consider it necessary and part of my humanity to challenge such things. And believe it or not, it is compassion that fuels that need. It's why I'm a teacher. It's why I run anti-oppression and anti-racism workshops (which is a job that routinely subjects me to people lashing out at me). It's why I come to boards like this.
I've spent a lifetime doing the same-I just choose to ensure that BOTH sides get the compassion-sense it, feel it and know it's directed towards them. Generally speaking those who hurt others do so out of a need to protect themselves. Even KKK members (I lost my virginity to a WONDERFUL black man with no regrets and have a black sister i adore this is NOT in support of KKK) do so out of fear which is at it's bottomline a need to self-protect. They shouldn't be allowed to continue-but they do need to be cared for if they are to ever learn. Hating them may seem reasonable-but it won't protect the innocent black people being hurt by them, because it won't stop the fear that causes their behavior.

Quote:
I also feel the need to point out a couple of double standards here: First: We have other members of this community that use pretty blunt language and are often explained and excused when that bluntness is off putting to newcomers. Yet when a new poster comes and uses a very similar blunt language, that is interpreted as inflammatory.

Second, nobody seemed to have a problem when I took to task the VERY same issue of flawed reasoning creating prejudice and stereotypes when I brought this up in the Sexual Element thread. In fact, lots of people chimed in with lots of inflammatory language towards the OP there for his opinions. And I have to give a lot of credit to GroundedSpririt for taking such flames and sticking with it and making an effort to continue the dialogue, which honestly he has done very well both on the boards in in messages.
I don't believe I said anything uncaring to GS either....

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So how does making 1400 posts exactly excuse a person from having a similar post held to the same standard? After the number of times I've come to the defense of the mono perspective on this board, I find it really funny to be accused of mono-bashing when all I was doing was holding the same standard I hold in every exchange on this forum. I appreciate that Mono was probably going through a tough time, and perhaps a break from the boards will help, but I cannot take responsibility for that.
It's not about excusing Ceoli. I never said as much. It's about understanding-when you are a minority just BEING there is a trial in and of itself. When there is ONE black person in the school-each day is a trial. One can expect anyone who is struggling hard enough to be here that devotedly-who isn't poly to be somewhat defensive. Every single day that he posted was wrought with the underlying message that there is something wrong with HIM becuase he's DIFFERENT from the rest of us. How many "mono's" have stuck around? Eventually that wears you down. The point is that when there is ONE "outsider" in a group the group owes it to themselves to fnd a way to protect that outsider and keep them safe within the group WHILE helping them learn and grow. If we don't do both.... well we lose the outsider and with them our support from the outside.

Quote:
This is more than a point, it's a fundamental value of mine. I cannot build authentic relationships and set aside my fundamental values at the same time, plain and simple.
I don't see why one can't make a point whilst also making the simultaneous point of showing love and caring for the person they are speaking to ESPECIALLY when they are talking to someone who is at odds with their fundamental values. You can't make THEM see your point if you aren't caring to THEM-so if you talk to them and don't care, effectively you are wasting your breath because you aren't actually communicating with them....
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