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  #161  
Old 06-27-2012, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Sometimes people make choices because they don't want to hurt someone, but that is not the hurt persons choice, everyone acts out of free will. He has acted out of free will. He does not want to date you. End of story.
So he doesn't want to hurt his SO.
And he did act out of free will to end it with this new girl.
Yes.

But it doesn't mean that he didn't want to date her, end of story. That's rather dismissive.

When you read the entire thread, you will probably see it differently. He wanted to date her, but was told not to, twice. Not saying that I agree with even having a Veto power to begin with but if you do, what's the point of a Veto power if he's not going to abide by it? Denying his SO's request would probably mean losing her which he wasn't prepared to do. Hence the compromise.

In poly, I thought the idea was that one didn't have to choose?

Just my thoughts.....
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  #162  
Old 06-27-2012, 09:15 PM
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Yeah, he did want to date me. He was very excited about me in the beginning, and excited when I came back as well. The night that I went to his place (it was one time when we were all in talks), he kept hugging me to him. I had just stood in front of him with normal 2-3 feet of space between us, intending to talk like regular people who were talking, but he kept pulling me into an embrace that was simultaneously sexual and loving. He held my hand as we walked a bit of a way and then pulled me to him to embrace me even more.

He chose me in the first place, remember. He talked to me on OkCupid, and even after I said "uhhh, I don't know" (about open relationships), he talked me into it.

He loves his girlfriend. I know that. He also wanted to date me. He also is highly attracted to me. He doesn't want to hurt her. It's all of it.
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  #163  
Old 06-27-2012, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Katrpillar View Post
It sucks that her needs currently mean not being able to work on a shared relationship with you but that is where she is mentally at right now. It is neither right or wrong. Just like it was neither right or wrong for you to have originally left after 7 weeks for your own mental health.
Also, I would agree with what you said above more if it were the case that they decided to close up their relationship or to change their stance to "see people casually but not develop emotional relationships with them" because that would reflect a backtrack from the situation with me that accommodates "what she can handle right now."

But it is not the case that they changed things. Their structure is EXACTLY the same. Date people and love people.

She *is* in a place, mentally and emotionally, where she can accept a woman in his life who means something to him. That is, any rate, their protocol / what they are trying to make happen. It just can't be me in particular.

The thing about it is...I'm not sure what exactly it is that she wants for him. Any woman he dates and enjoys dating is someone he's going to be excited about and very attracted to. It's going to be the same thing with any other woman. And if she only wants him to date people he's lukewarm about, how fair is that to him?

It's not that I think she's denying him "the only woman who would ever be exciting to him" (me). I think A LOT of women could make him very happy and excited. I mean, over time. As we all know, that sort of thing isn't just a dime a dozen. But sure, other women besides me could quite easily be very attractive and exciting to him.

The point is...surely she must know that all women he's excited about are going to feel threatening. It doesn't make sense to say "don't date this woman" when the thing that bothered you about that woman ("she feels threatening to me") is VERY LIKELY going to be true of subsequent women as well.
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  #164  
Old 06-27-2012, 09:35 PM
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Wait a minute. He said on his profile they are open? That is vastly different than poly for some people. Its about sex and casualness not about love and commitment. Perhaps this is something to ponder. Perhaps you were to close for comfort.
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  #165  
Old 06-27-2012, 09:39 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Wait a minute. He said on his profile they are open? That is vastly different than poly for some people. Its about sex and casualness not about love and commitment. Perhaps this is something to ponder. Perhaps you were to close for comfort.
They used the "open relationship" wording, but they mean polyamory. Believe me, I know. They use the word polyamory just as often. They use the words interchangeably, but their meaning is love relationships that are equal.

I know and you know open relationship and polyamory are different, but there are just some people that use them interchangeably and mean one thing over the other. But since I know them and talked to them, believe me...they are polyamorous. Or that's what their goal is.

Not to sound snippy, (and I don't expect you to read the whole thread), but...the whole thread explains things.
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  #166  
Old 06-27-2012, 09:53 PM
ThatGirlInGray ThatGirlInGray is offline
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Apologies for the previous misunderstanding. Since you contacted him, then if he were going to need her agreement to date you he should, imo, have tempered his reaction to you a little. Been a little more cautious, a little less, "Yes, I want to date you" and more, "This is something worth considering, let's all talk about it."

I've been "vetoed", from your point of view, by everyone from new girlfriends to parents to church elders. And not even from a romantic relationship, but just a friendship. Yes, it sucks when someone doesn't care about you ENOUGH to choose you when they're being told, "I'm not comfortable with you dating her/being friends with her" or "She's not someone you should be dating/friends with" but that's life.

You got a few pages of sympathy, but now you seem determined to keep arguing your side until EVERYONE agrees with you. Not gonna happen. You didn't put this in the Blog section, so people are going to voice their opinions. You're not going to get a consensus that You Were Right and She Was Wrong. You suggested something. She declined. Good for you for doing some learning about yourself, but she's not obligated to agree to try anything. She doesn't NEED an excuse to say, "No thanks, not interested." Then it was up to him to decide if he wanted to date her or you, which he did. You say it was her choice, but it was his too. Funny how you keep being understanding of his choice but not so much of hers. Perhaps because his is less of a rejection of you personally? Let me ask you this: if you could do it over again, would you rather he just tell you that after thinking about he wasn't interested? Or would you rather know the truth about why he decided not to date you? That's one thing I've been wondering about the "complete honesty" of poly- does it help to know he wants to date you but won't because of her? Or is it easier to move on from him if you're under the impression that it was completely his choice and decision with no influence from her?

Anyway, back on the subject, neither of them sound ready for poly, so if they keep going with trying to have an open or poly relationship I really hope they work on their own shit, because to KEEP hurting people they try to have relationships with WOULD be irresponsible and cruel.
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  #167  
Old 06-27-2012, 10:03 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray View Post
Apologies for the previous misunderstanding. Since you contacted him, then if he were going to need her agreement to date you he should, imo, have tempered his reaction to you a little. Been a little more cautious, a little less, "Yes, I want to date you" and more, "This is something worth considering, let's all talk about it."

I've been "vetoed", from your point of view, by everyone from new girlfriends to parents to church elders. And not even from a romantic relationship, but just a friendship. Yes, it sucks when someone doesn't care about you ENOUGH to choose you when they're being told, "I'm not comfortable with you dating her/being friends with her" or "She's not someone you should be dating/friends with" but that's life.

You got a few pages of sympathy, but now you seem determined to keep arguing your side until EVERYONE agrees with you. Not gonna happen. You didn't put this in the Blog section, so people are going to voice their opinions. You're not going to get a consensus that You Were Right and She Was Wrong. You suggested something. She declined. Good for you for doing some learning about yourself, but she's not obligated to agree to try anything. She doesn't NEED an excuse to say, "No thanks, not interested." Then it was up to him to decide if he wanted to date her or you, which he did. You say it was her choice, but it was his too. Funny how you keep being understanding of his choice but not so much of hers. Perhaps because his is less of a rejection of you personally? Let me ask you this: if you could do it over again, would you rather he just tell you that after thinking about he wasn't interested? Or would you rather know the truth about why he decided not to date you? That's one thing I've been wondering about the "complete honesty" of poly- does it help to know he wants to date you but won't because of her? Or is it easier to move on from him if you're under the impression that it was completely his choice and decision with no influence from her?

Anyway, back on the subject, neither of them sound ready for poly, so if they keep going with trying to have an open or poly relationship I really hope they work on their own shit, because to KEEP hurting people they try to have relationships with WOULD be irresponsible and cruel.
I'm not trying to make everyone agree with me, but if someone says "you should have done such and such," (and I did do such and such), I'll let them know that I did.

The thing is, I know how it works. Secondaries will sympathize, primaries will justify the girl's actions. We all have our biases, and I don't blame anyone for them. Just interacting with people and showing (when asked) that I did do everything I could.

About me sympathizing with him. I've said a number of times that I don't. I just put much more of the onus on her. But if people really want to hear me attribute it more to him...I'll repeat the statement that yeah, I blame him too. It wasn't al her.

I did already say that though.

Quote:
That's one thing I've been wondering about the "complete honesty" of poly- does it help to know he wants to date you but won't because of her? Or is it easier to move on from him if you're under the impression that it was completely his choice and decision with no influence from her?
I think it's pretty equal as far as how easy it makes it for me to move on. Because even if I wanted to hang on to the former (he wants to date me but she won't him), it still falls into the category of he chose to respect her wishes instead of be with me). Either way is hurtful to me. But well, yeah, obviously, it's A LITTLE less hurtful because he did want to (date me). I mean, most people would feel way shittier if the guy said (without any other influence): "Sorry, not interested in you."
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  #168  
Old 06-27-2012, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
I'm not trying to make everyone agree with me, but if someone says "you should have done such and such," (and I did do such and such), I'll let them know that I did.

The thing is, I know how it works. Secondaries will sympathize, primaries will justify the girl's actions. We all have our biases, and I don't blame anyone for them. Just interacting with people and showing (when asked) that I did do everything I could.

About me sympathizing with him. I've said a number of times that I don't. I just put much more of the onus on her. But if people really want to hear me attribute it more to him...I'll repeat the statement that yeah, I blame him too. It wasn't al her.

I did already say that though.



I think it's pretty equal as far as how easy it makes it for me to move on. Because even if I wanted to hang on to the former (he wants to date me but she won't him), it still falls into the category of he chose to respect her wishes instead of be with me). Either way is hurtful to me. But well, yeah, obviously, it's A LITTLE less hurtful because he did want to (date me). I mean, most people would feel way shittier if the guy said (without any other influence): "Sorry, not interested in you."
Oh, and what i said about "secondaries will sympathize, primaries will justify the girl's actions..." -- obviously I'm generalizing. Nobody needs to take offense. I know people can be objective about things, regardless of their stand point or position. Regardless, I think the generalization GENERALLY holds true.
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  #169  
Old 06-27-2012, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray View Post
I've been "vetoed", from your point of view, by everyone from new girlfriends to parents to church elders. And not even from a romantic relationship, but just a friendship. Yes, it sucks when someone doesn't care about you ENOUGH to choose you when they're being told, "I'm not comfortable with you dating her/being friends with her" or "She's not someone you should be dating/friends with" but that's life.
And never did I say that those other contexts aren't also vetoes. I'd find it just as immature to tell a platonic female friend not to be friends with another female.

I see what you're saying about "vetoes" being a part of life, and I agree that they are (in subtle ways in all different types of relationships). But equating "well everybody does it" to "it's right" -- I don't agree with.
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  #170  
Old 06-27-2012, 10:21 PM
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I don't see it as a wrong to tell someone that you aren't comfortable with certain things. Whether those things are habits like smoking, drinking, texting while in a conversation, all the way to having a relationship(s) with certain people.

If she hadn't told him she couldn't handle you dating her, and then her insecurities caused issues for all of you, you'd be judging her for not being honest. Which would you rather have? Honesty that creates a veto or hidden issues that create drama? I'd go with the veto to save myself long-term issues.

I don't consider vetoes inherently right or wrong. I don't consider telling someone that I am not comfortable with them being friends with someone wrong if I have a good reason for it. I don't consider it wrong to tell my husband that I am not comfortable with him dating someone who is also struggling with some of the same issues I am struggling with if he only has the time/energy/ability to deal with one person with those issues.
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agreements, contracts, control issues, envy, jealous, jealousy, metamour concerns, new to poly, nre, relationship dynamics, relationship issues, secondaries, secondary, sex, veto, veto policy, veto power, vetos

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