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  #151  
Old 06-27-2012, 06:39 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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I'm thinking maybe because you used to be together and it ended, she feels like it didn't work out anyway, so why waste time and energy and get hurt trying the same thing again hoping for different results?
It could be the way she feels about it, I mean.

In any case, I think it's important for metamours to get along, if there are problems between the two of you it wouldn't work. She'd have to be fine with you and she can't help it if she isn't.

Time will tell if she will feel the same way about everyone he shows interest to or not. If so, then she probably should work on her issues or reconsider poly. If not, though, well it's good that she was honest about knowing it wouldn't work for her if he tried to be with you again, as much as it sucks for you.
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  #152  
Old 06-27-2012, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
And as far as she and I being a lot a like, to me, that doesn't make it any more reasonable for her to say "Don't date her." The point is...you can't make all these little concessions for controlling. On top of that, she wants to stipulate that the other woman can't be too much like her?

She's just as much like me as I am like her, and I don't have a problem with it.

Immature.
Nothing about that is truely Poly. They should stick with the Open Relationship label.

From what I read, they weren't seeking a unicorn for a triad, they were open to finding someone they each liked and connected with. So who cares if she doesn't like his choice? If she was secure in the relationship, that shouldn't affect her. She isn't spending time with this woman, her partner is.

I agree that it would be nice and wonderful if metamours truely liked each other, but that won't always be the case. The mature answer is that as long as the metamours are both mutually respectful of the other and trust in their partner to do what's best for their relationship, then step back and let your partner enjoy.

Isn't that the basis of poly?

This whole "You can only date her if I deem her to be of less value/appeal than me" is crazy. And her partner should thank her for demanding he trade down rather than enjoying someone he's really interested in? Wow.

Now there's a concept for evolved relationship thinking for you!
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  #153  
Old 06-27-2012, 07:50 PM
Katrpillar Katrpillar is offline
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Basically, the upshot was that they spent a week talking it over, and even after all the deliberating, her stance was this: she did want them to stay in an open relationship, but she preferred that he not date me in particular. She said "let's start fresh." So his final words to me were (paraphrasing): "I can't date you. We're still in a poly situation but Jeni has to be comfortable with the person I date."
I understand how hurt you can be at Derek and Jeni's choice but I guess I don't consider this veto. It reads to me like it was a mutually agreed upon decision between the two made after a week of deliberation. How is her stating her preferences (and/or boundaries) a veto (which I understand to be making a demand)? Derek wants Jeni to be comfortable with the people he dates and apparently based on the previous history between you three she felt uncomfortable with you. We are getting your side here which I understand may feel very unfair, not right, but we don't know Jeni's side. How Derek handled NRE, etc... You could be a lovely person and not be toxic or drama or whatever else you consider ok reasons for veto. Maybe Derek's behavior while in a relationship with you was toxic, damaging, or stressful to Jeni and Derek's relationship in ways you don't know. It sounds like your info regarding their relationship comes from Derek and not Jeni so the lack of complete info wouldn't surprise me.

We know he did say he might end up leaving her if he continued in a relationship with you. And you originally left because you couldn't handle sharing with his GF. It sounds great that you've changed and are willing to work on the relationship with the both of them. If that is indeed the case I wonder why you chose to reach out just to Derek alone and and not reach out to both of them in the spirit of teamwork and inclusion.

Maybe she has her own reasons why she is unable to process you specifically in Derek's or her life due to past experiences with Derek. Especially if she believes that you really would prefer not to share (so much so that you left after 7 weeks). If in only 7 weeks my BF or DH was contemplating leaving me for another and my relationship turned upside down (this is unclear to me) I would be a bit gun shy at trying that same configuration again. I would also be a bit jaded or skeptical at any new huge philosophy shift that seemed to be made exclusively in order to be in a relationship with my partner.

I don't think there is anything wrong or immature in Jeni knowing what she can or cannot emotionally handle for herself and her stating as much to her BF. It is her responsibility as a loving partner to communicate what her capabilities are and what her truth is. She may not be in a place in her life where she can deconstruct and recreate a dynamic that has so much baggage for her. Perhaps trying to do so would take up too much processing and be detrimental to her mental health and ability to function in her relationship or productively in her own life. It is Derek's responsibility to take what she says into consideration and make his own choice- which he did. Saying, "you can do this why can't she," sounds a bit lacking in empathy for Jeni as her own person with her own faults and limitations. It sucks that her needs currently mean not being able to work on a shared relationship with you but that is where she is mentally at right now. It is neither right or wrong. Just like it was neither right or wrong for you to have originally left after 7 weeks for your own mental health.

Some years ago I was in a place where I could not process a specific outside relationship my husband had. In my case it was due to lack of trust and many broken boundaries. It would have taken too much for me to rebuild that trust. Perhaps my situation is more understandable but regardless of cause I believe that sometimes a person cannot emotionally put in the work that it would take to heal a previously broken relationship dynamic (especially if they believed it damaged or almost cost them their relationship). It is their choice not to have to do so. Derek might have agreed to Jeni's request because he also believes that she is unable to emotionally do so now AND he chooses to prioritize their relationship for whatever reason.

For what it is worth... if I were Jeni, things that might change my mind/perspective would be if you approached me independently with what I believed was a genuine interest in healing and recreating OUR metamour relationship (even if it just be platonic). To see if we are compatible as friends or just respectful people before we get emotionally entangled with our shared lover where it previously fell apart. Of course this is not necessary nor to be expected as standard but it would show me good faith and intention on your part to not want to damage my existing relationship. In time I could slowly begin to trust you and welcome you into my life and hear directly from you how your views and feelings have changed and share mine as well. Of course Jeni could be very different than me.

Best wishes and future happiness,

Katrpillar
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  #154  
Old 06-27-2012, 08:03 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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mercury,

How and why did you get involved in this in the first place? What was your motivation?

How often did you see each other before the tension and problems and split?

Does the wife currently have another partner or partners?
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  #155  
Old 06-27-2012, 08:33 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonberry View Post
I'm thinking maybe because you used to be together and it ended, she feels like it didn't work out anyway, so why waste time and energy and get hurt trying the same thing again hoping for different results?
It could be the way she feels about it, I mean.

In any case, I think it's important for metamours to get along, if there are problems between the two of you it wouldn't work. She'd have to be fine with you and she can't help it if she isn't.

Time will tell if she will feel the same way about everyone he shows interest to or not. If so, then she probably should work on her issues or reconsider poly. If not, though, well it's good that she was honest about knowing it wouldn't work for her if he tried to be with you again, as much as it sucks for you.
But the thing is, it didn't "not work out" because of lack of attraction between him and me, or any "values clashing" between him and me, or he and I "not getting along." There was nothing about me and him that clashed.

The reason that it didn't work out was this:

We (she and I) were both feeling a degree of jealousy.

When I came back, I came back with what I thought to be a likely remedy to that -- for she and I to hang out and be friends. And I know she was down with that the first time around, and according to their OkCupid profiles, they're still looking for mates who "want to be part of our open relationship," meaning...she's down to hang out with the people he dates. So she does want to hang out with whoever becomes his girlfriend, just not me in particular.

I wouldn't try to get back together with a just general "let's try again" if I didn't have what I thought to be some sort of remedy for the previous ill. My remedy was...let's be friends instead of rivals.

Let me share with you the exact email I wrote to her when we were all "in talks":

(after a paragraph or two of clearing the air about last time...)

I think it would be really great to get to know you and develop more of a friendship with you. We are probably very different in a lot of ways, but I think we have a lot of common ground as well. I even think it would be fun to eventually hang out with you and ______ together.

Iíve missed him a lot. Heís a terrific guy, and I definitely want him in my life. I donít presume to know what you are thinking about it all, but I feel compelled to say that there should be no concern that Iím going to take him away from you. I donít want to, nor will I. He is very devoted to you, cares about you a lot, and is extremely close to you, and I have no desire to change that. I am glad for you and for him that you have each other.

Anyway, Iíve said the main things I want to say. But I am still open to talking on the phone or meeting up for coffee if you want to.
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  #156  
Old 06-27-2012, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
I read the "veto" threads on this forum, and most of them say things like "well, if the person is toxic, or somehow going to cause trouble, or that person is clearly crazy, it makes sense to veto."
No, no "all" the threads here don't say that, which thread did you get this from?

I have not read this entire thread, but I am going to wiegh in anyway. Vetos are not generally accepted as a good way of doing business in poly. Everyone is an individual and everyone makes their own choices from that perspective. Sometimes people make choices because they don't want to hurt someone, but that is not the hurt persons choice, everyone acts out of free will. He has acted out of free will. He does not want to date you. End of story.
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  #157  
Old 06-27-2012, 08:51 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Originally Posted by Katrpillar View Post
I understand how hurt you can be at Derek and Jeni's choice but I guess I don't consider this veto. It reads to me like it was a mutually agreed upon decision between the two made after a week of deliberation. How is her stating her preferences (and/or boundaries) a veto (which I understand to be making a demand)? Derek wants Jeni to be comfortable with the people he dates and apparently based on the previous history between you three she felt uncomfortable with you. We are getting your side here which I understand may feel very unfair, not right, but we don't know Jeni's side. How Derek handled NRE, etc... You could be a lovely person and not be toxic or drama or whatever else you consider ok reasons for veto. Maybe Derek's behavior while in a relationship with you was toxic, damaging, or stressful to Jeni and Derek's relationship in ways you don't know. It sounds like your info regarding their relationship comes from Derek and not Jeni so the lack of complete info wouldn't surprise me.
I think it is a veto. They may have agreed on it, ultimately, but his initial reaction to my getting in touch with him was "let's see each other again."

But I agree with you that I don't necessarily have all the information. Who KNOWS how he was acting with her during my time with him. Hell, it's possible he was making her feel like shit about it. I will definitely grant you that WHO KNOWS what kind of loving yet still possibly passive-aggressive dynamic they have with each other. I know he did say this to me after our third date: "I was telling _____ (her) how surprised i was that you guys weren't friends because you're so much alike." I mean, not that that's a bad thing to day, especially if it's true, but it certainly is going to plant a seed of insecurity in her if he's telling her, "You know, ____ (me) has ALL the same things you have." It's going to make her feel that much more replaceable. I think if I were in his shoes, I might have been downplaying how great the new person is...just a little.

It's totally true that there could be things going on in their relationship that I don't know about. For all I know, they agreed to date other people but not have sex until after two months, and he may have broken that. (I do kinda doubt that, but what I'm saying is...it's possible they had some rule that he broke). Anything's possible.

Quote:
We know he did say he might end up leaving her if he continued in a relationship with you. And you originally left because you couldn't handle sharing with his GF. It sounds great that you've changed and are willing to work on the relationship with the both of them. If that is indeed the case I wonder why you chose to reach out just to Derek alone and and not reach out to both of them in the spirit of teamwork and inclusion.
I reached out to both of them. See my post above. I even asked if she wanted to have coffee to talk about it all. Even before I wrote that email, though, I was telling him to tell her that I so wanted to be friends with her and get to know her more.

Quote:
Maybe she has her own reasons why she is unable to process you specifically in Derek's or her life due to past experiences with Derek. Especially if she believes that you really would prefer not to share (so much so that you left after 7 weeks). If in only 7 weeks my BF or DH was contemplating leaving me for another and my relationship turned upside down (this is unclear to me) I would be a bit gun shy at trying that same configuration again. I would also be a bit jaded or skeptical at any new huge philosophy shift that seemed to be made exclusively in order to be in a relationship with my partner.
I wrote her an email which I explained why I left the first time. It said, "I was new to it all and didn't know if I wanted it. But I've since done a lot of soul-searching, reading about polyamory, just contemplating, and I have a new outlook. I really want to be a part of both of you know." (see the above for how I ended it). As a person new to poly herself and feeling insecure as she did, surely she had to know that I felt that way too but I wanted for all of us to try it again and be loving, peaceful, and supportive of each other. When someone goes to you and says "I want to make this work for ALL of us," there's not a hell of a lot of excuse to just say "sorry, no thanks. Your good intentions and desire to be close to me just aren't good enough. I'd rather he date a different person."

As far as him contemplating leaving her, I don't even know if he said that to her. Now I'm not saying it's right for him to think that in the first place. But what I'm saying is we can't factor it into HER thinking and decision making when it's highly unlikely that he said to her, "Well, you know what, I'm getting really happy with ____ (me), I'm thinking of leaving her."

He didn't say it, at any rate, in a very cruel context. It may sound that way in blunt text on the Internet. He said it in a way that was just being truthful about where they stood, that they were opening up their relationship, both knowing that at risk is the possibility of one or the other or both of them being happy enough with someone else to stray.

It really wasn't even a proclamation directed at how happy I was making him. It was more a generalized, objective one, wherein he was saying some woman in the future at some point might be compelling enough to make him depart. And the same for her with guys.

Quote:
I don't think there is anything wrong or immature in Jeni knowing what she can or cannot emotionally handle for herself and her stating as much to her BF. It is her responsibility as a loving partner to communicate what her capabilities are and what her truth is. She may not be in a place in her life where she can deconstruct and recreate a dynamic that has so much baggage for her. Perhaps trying to do so would take up too much processing and be detrimental to her mental health and ability to function in her relationship or productively in her own life. It is Derek's responsibility to take what she says into consideration and make his own choice- which he did. Saying, "you can do this why can't she," sounds a bit lacking in empathy for Jeni as her own person with her own faults and limitations. It sucks that her needs currently mean not being able to work on a shared relationship with you but that is where she is mentally at right now. It is neither right or wrong. Just like it was neither right or wrong for you to have originally left after 7 weeks for your own mental health.
I do agree with you there. I agree with you, even, that it's not necessarily fair of me to pull the "I can, so why can't she" card. I do understand that different people have different emotional capabilities at different times in their lives, and that she need not necessarily be condemned for being unready for something that I feel quite ready for. To that extent, I agree with you. I'm doing a bit of free-venting here because it's a message board. But rest assured, I know all that (above) about different emotional capabilities.

When I say she is "immature," from my perspective, she is. I know it's not a fair judgment and may be harsh on her. But it is my assessment of her. Immature isn't always a bad thing. "Immature" is relative, anyway. By my standards, she is. Immature for poly, that is. Not immature in general. But yes, immature for poly.

Quote:
Some years ago I was in a place where I could not process a specific outside relationship my husband had. In my case it was due to lack of trust and many broken boundaries. It would have taken too much for me to rebuild that trust. Perhaps my situation is more understandable but regardless of cause I believe that sometimes a person cannot emotionally put in the work that it would take to heal a previously broken relationship dynamic (especially if they believed it damaged or almost cost them their relationship). It is their choice not to have to do so. Derek might have agreed to Jeni's request because he also believes that she is unable to emotionally do so now AND he chooses to prioritize their relationship for whatever reason.
Yep, I get all that. And like I said above, for all I know, some boundary was broken. I doubt they told me everything.

Quote:
For what it is worth... if I were Jeni, things that might change my mind/perspective would be if you approached me independently with what I believed was a genuine interest in healing and recreating OUR metamour relationship (even if it just be platonic). To see if we are compatible as friends or just respectful people before we get emotionally entangled with our shared lover where it previously fell apart. Of course this is not necessary nor to be expected as standard but it would show me good faith and intention on your part to not want to damage my existing relationship. In time I could slowly begin to trust you and welcome you into my life and hear directly from you how your views and feelings have changed and share mine as well. Of course Jeni could be very different than me.
Did that. Did it and then some. There was even a time after the email I wrote above in which I called her to talk. No answer, no return call.
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  #158  
Old 06-27-2012, 08:55 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
No, no "all" the threads here don't say that, which thread did you get this from?

I have not read this entire thread, but I am going to wiegh in anyway. Vetos are not generally accepted as a good way of doing business in poly. Everyone is an individual and everyone makes their own choices from that perspective. Sometimes people make choices because they don't want to hurt someone, but that is not the hurt persons choice, everyone acts out of free will. He has acted out of free will. He does not want to date you. End of story.
Well, look at my wording. It says "most." And I'm aware that some people have explained their vetoes differently from "toxic" "crazy person" "trouble maker" -- that's why I said "most." Because from the reading I did, most of the responses did say "I'd only veto if they were an obvious trouble-maker" etc.

Oh, and I know it's his choice. I just think it's a sad situation because he pursued a possible girlfriend for himself, was happy when she got back in touch, but was put in a situation where he would lose another longer-term, more established girlfriend if he pursued anything. I also think it's sad because I meant well and had good intentions. You may all think I was just trying to see him again and just going to "tolerate" her, but you're wrong.

I had visions of being really, really close to her. I had visions of us being very friendly and just supporting each other as people in the same profession, people who value the same guy, etc., etc.
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  #159  
Old 06-27-2012, 08:59 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Originally Posted by Katrpillar View Post
For what it is worth... if I were Jeni, things that might change my mind/perspective would be if you approached me independently with what I believed was a genuine interest in healing and recreating OUR metamour relationship (even if it just be platonic). To see if we are compatible as friends or just respectful people before we get emotionally entangled with our shared lover where it previously fell apart. Of course this is not necessary nor to be expected as standard but it would show me good faith and intention on your part to not want to damage my existing relationship. In time I could slowly begin to trust you and welcome you into my life and hear directly from you how your views and feelings have changed and share mine as well. Of course Jeni could be very different than me.

Best wishes and future happiness,

Katrpillar
In case you don't see the above email that I referred to, here it is. What I wrote to her.

I think it would be really great to get to know you and develop more of a friendship with you. We are probably very different in a lot of ways, but I think we have a lot of common ground as well. I even think it would be fun to eventually hang out with you and ______ together.

Iíve missed him a lot. Heís a terrific guy, and I definitely want him in my life. I donít presume to know what you are thinking about it all, but I feel compelled to say that there should be no concern that Iím going to take him away from you. I donít want to, nor will I. He is very devoted to you, cares about you a lot, and is extremely close to you, and I have no desire to change that. I am glad for you and for him that you have each other.

Anyway, Iíve said the main things I want to say. But I am still open to talking on the phone or meeting up for coffee if you want to.


And as I said....called her even after that email and got no answer, no return call.
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  #160  
Old 06-27-2012, 09:01 PM
mercury mercury is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
No, no "all" the threads here don't say that, which thread did you get this from?

I have not read this entire thread, but I am going to wiegh in anyway. Vetos are not generally accepted as a good way of doing business in poly. Everyone is an individual and everyone makes their own choices from that perspective. Sometimes people make choices because they don't want to hurt someone, but that is not the hurt persons choice, everyone acts out of free will. He has acted out of free will. He does not want to date you. End of story.
Also, I understand that he had to ultimately choose to abide by her choice in order to make it a no-go between him and me dating again. Doesn't change the fact that the original choice came from her.
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