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  #21  
Old 06-19-2012, 02:19 PM
feelyunicorn feelyunicorn is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
Who said anything about a veto? A veto agreement grants partners the right to end relationships or disallow activities. That's completely different from when the partner specifically asks you how you feel about something that could potentially affect a friendship that pre-exists the marriage by a decade. I call that respecting one another's wishes. It's not just semantics. One is "I'm allowed to do this, only if you say I'm allowed." The other is "I love you and I trust your judgement. I believe that you will not behave selfishly just to avoid having icky feelings."

This thread was about me getting to the bottom of my feelings and whether or not I approve. You can't tell me that you never disapprove of any choices your partners make. Well you can, but I'll call you a liar.

My husband is a free man with his own agency. I wouldn't be with him if he wasn't. And he wouldn't have married me if he thought I was a petty and jealous bitch. So when I say that I have a really bad gut feeling about something, he trusts that it's not a manipulation or avoidance of icky feelings. I've experienced plenty of icky feelings throughout our journey, and have grown from them every time. I don't shy away from icky feelings just because they're icky.

I also know the difference between icky feelings and gut feelings, though sometimes I'm stubborn about actually listening to myself. As I've evidenced here, I tend to err on the side of assuming they're just icky feelings that I can deal with. Only after much deliberation did I realize it was more significant.


As for why we're friends, like with all my best relationships, there's no quantifiable reason. We met in high school and have always been close. It's one of those friendships where you can just pick up the phone after months and it's like you haven't missed a day. And although it's taken 15 years and this ordeal to realize it, we really can tell each other anything. Our communication has already started to improve. I do agree that our relationship needs some work, and this experience has actually ignited that process.

I don't walk out on my friends just because they have issues. Isn't that exactly the thing that makes it friendship? Had she been a mere acquaintance, I wouldn't have given two shits about her potential broken heart.


I thought I'd addressed the therapeutic angle, but I probably wasn't clear. They never denied that they just wanted to fuck. They both admit that it's primarily a matter of convenience. My husband also felt that she could benefit from the release with someone safe. My friend denied any therapeutic benefits that she could think of, except possibly proving to herself that her ex was full of shit when he said no one else would want her.
Fair enough. Good luck!
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  #22  
Old 06-19-2012, 02:38 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
He waited until he knew there was the possibility of sex happening.
He can't report the possibility of sex until he knows there's a possibility of sex. There's absolutely nothing to report prior to that. Faulting him for not reporting what he didn't know seems quite silly to me.

Srsly. I don't see anything hinky in this.
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  #23  
Old 06-19-2012, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
He can't report the possibility of sex until he knows there's a possibility of sex. There's absolutely nothing to report prior to that. Faulting him for not reporting what he didn't know seems quite silly to me.

Srsly. I don't see anything hinky in this.
Oh he knew all right. He knew that he wanted to bang her. What he didn't know is whether she wanted to bang him.

Not infrequently he'll see a nice ass on the street and tell me that she'd be fun to fuck. Obviously, in those cases, there's no real possibility of sex but he tells me anyway.

But I fully agree that there's nothing hinky about it. I never said he wasn't trying to get away with anything, nor did I for a second accuse him of that. I just wanted him to know that I like it when he tells me how he's feeling, even if there's nothing to get worked up about. For his part, he was just trying to protect me, and I understand and respect that.
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  #24  
Old 06-19-2012, 08:21 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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How did he come to being tasked as a bodyguard....did she ask him ...did she ask you and you ask him ...did he volunteer?

What about the other methods to stay safe...restraining order, home security system...pistol grip shotgun, local law enforcement and the advent of the cellphone( 911 or emergency #'s )


I guess I'm confused as to where the break down in the poly logic is?

Sex is sex ...love is love. They seem to think it will be just sex....which your ok with ...at least in the past. You seem a bit wiser and more realistic as to the possibility of more....which is poly ...right.
You and husband are poly so no conflict there.

The close friend/ sister thing.....it ok if he sticks his fist or dick up her but not develop feelings or have her as additional loving partner? Isn't that against the poly doctrine?

It seem incredible that the two of you would actually talk about the therapeutic nature of this ....he must be a sexual healer too. I hope she been part of these discussions. It's all about the healin: New meaning to healing hands /fists

I think if you just use the poly logic you should be ok. Look at the fear... address the fear...talk through the fear.
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  #25  
Old 06-19-2012, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
What about the other methods to stay safe...restraining order, home security system...pistol grip shotgun, local law enforcement and the advent of the cellphone( 911 or emergency #'s )
Your suggestions indicate that you have never personally been in this kind of situation. It's all fine and good to talk about restraining orders, but many abuse victims will tell you how effective those are. Oh wait, no they won't, because their abusive exes ignored the restraining orders and murdered them.

She's had a restraining order in place for months, he's ignored it before. He recently came back and was banging on the door, screaming through the window, phoning her repeatedly. She called the cops, they hauled him off and put him in jail and extended the restraining order to include her kids. He was released on bail, pending trial. Being put in jail and banned from seeing his kids pissed him right the fuck off and now she's afraid of retribution.

She's on social assistance (with two kids under 3, childcare alone would cost her more than she could make working; she had a job before they met, but he did that wonderful abusive thing where he made her quit so she could be a stay at home mom), so a home alarm is not a financially viable option. Besides, those are useless if someone is determined enough. Response time is longer than the time it takes to cause bodily harm, and he already proved that he's too stupid to care about consequences.

She has been using law enforcement to the full extent possible. However, they're really only good at arresting bad guys after the damage has been done. Obviously they're not offering to put a car outside her house and monitor her safety.

There are a number of problems with the gun suggestion. First, she has young children so she would have to keep it locked up and the ammo stored separately, as per the law in her jurisdiction and basic common sense. So by the time he's broken down the door and pinned her to the floor, the gun isn't going to do a fuck of a lot of good. Second, in her jurisdiction, legislation actually forbids using weapons for self-defence. So even if she could get the gun, load it, and shoot him, she would end up in jail and her kids without parents. She's really not the type to use a gun, anyway, and her hesitance would give him the chance to take the gun from her and use it against her. My self-defence class emphasized that an assault victim is more likely to be disarmed and attacked with their own weapon than they are to be capable and willing to use it effectively against their attacker.

The authorities specifically recommend not relying on cell phones for situations like these. For one thing, it's impossible to exactly trace the signal in the time required to provide emergency service, even with GPS. The police advised her that the best kind of connection is a land line phone in every room, which she has, specifically because of this guy. She can't afford it anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
How did he come to being tasked as a bodyguard....did she ask him ...did she ask you and you ask him ...did he volunteer?
It was she who asked my husband to come stay with her, but he's not the only person. She's had different friends staying with her every night, and plans to do so until his trial in July. I didn't mention that because it wasn't relevant to the situation.

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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
They seem to think it will be just sex....which your ok with ...at least in the past.
You and husband are poly so no conflict there.
The close friend/ sister thing.....it ok if he sticks his fist or dick up her but not develop feelings or have her as additional loving partner? Isn't that against the poly doctrine?
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
His penis has never been out of his pants when they've played, and it's always been in public. He put on a fisting workshop once and she was his demo. With a room full of "students" it was all very clinical and not at all sexy... and yet it was still weird between she and I afterwards. They played one other time at a fetish ball, and it was only spanking. So we're definitely entering new territory here.

My husband is not polyamorous, he just likes sexual variety. He has absolutely no desire for anything but fucking, nor does he have time and energy for an additional romantic relationship. Because of how he is, the possibility of them getting romantically involved is right off the table.
My husband self-identifies as monoamorous and polysexual. Therefore poly[amory] doctrine is irrelevant. You might ask why, then, did I raise this issue on a poly forum? Because I know that the people here have extensive experience to draw on and generally give good advice. I could have asked in a swinger forum, I suppose, but I'm not a member of any because I'm not a swinger.

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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
You seem a bit wiser and more realistic as to the possibility of more....which is poly ...right.
Not necessarily. If a fuck buddy falls in love with a married monoamorous person, it's not poly. It's unrequited love and a broken heart. That would make the three of us ever hanging out together awkward at best and impossible at worst.
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The most dangerous phrase in the English language is "we've always done it this way."

Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 06-19-2012 at 10:49 PM.
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  #26  
Old 06-19-2012, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
Totally agree with you about the difference between veto and asking someone's opinion. I am very glad that you have that dialogue going for you. The fact that this has increased the closeness between you and your friend is also a great thing, for sure.

I just really feel that it could do more harm than good.

I have had friends who struggled to feel desirable, so I have had second-hand experience of what that is like. The problem is that the mind-games can be played when you are self-doubting. Even if you have sex with someone, your mind goes to "yeah, but that was just a sympathy fuck, he didn't really WANT to."
I tend to agree with you. I've expressed my concern about this to my husband and while he doesn't agree with my impression of things, he trusts my judgement.
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  #27  
Old 06-20-2012, 03:34 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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I didn't make any suggestions I asked a question. Unfortunately I have a great deal of knowledge in this type of situations.... from two separate angles...much more then I wanted.

Unfortunately ...as you pointed out crazy or irrational people don't care about the consequences. Does she have other people covering the other hrs when your husbands not there?

Are you concerned for your husbands safety. If this is has spun that far out of control this sex issue might seem stupid in the scheme of things.


You had the ick factor or negative gut reaction ..or however you characterized your feeling about this ..... I meant using the poly doctrine or thinking to help you. Use those principles.....can't make others feel anything ( which implies you wont be able to manage how the others feel as well ), everyone's responsible for their own relationship(s), honest communication, compersion, etc, etc,....

Never heard the term monoamorous is that new?

Last edited by dingedheart; 06-20-2012 at 03:49 PM.
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  #28  
Old 06-20-2012, 05:54 PM
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I didn't make any suggestions I asked a question. Unfortunately I have a great deal of knowledge in this type of situations.... from two separate angles...much more then I wanted.
Fair enough. I was apparently being overly defensive, wouldn't be the first time

Quote:
Unfortunately ...as you pointed out crazy or irrational people don't care about the consequences. Does she have other people covering the other hrs when your husbands not there?
She's got someone coming over every night. She's less concerned about the day time... his behaviour is related to his drinking, which has traditionally been a problem mainly in the evenings.

Quote:
Are you concerned for your husbands safety. If this is has spun that far out of control this sex issue might seem stupid in the scheme of things.
I am, yes. We've spoken about this. My husband was one of those young men who would get into bar fights all the time, for all the usual reasons. He's since gone through tremendous amounts of counselling and he's no longer the same person, but he still has the instincts of a fighter he's just learned to control them. More importantly, he knows how NOT to fight... i.e. how to dissipate a situation before it gets that far. I believe that he would be able to keep the guy at bay long enough for the cops to show up without getting himself beat-up.

It's worth mentioning that the abuse was verbal and psychological, never physical. While it's true that this can change of course, hence my comments earlier, we think it's unlikely that he would get physical with another man. He's misogynist. Regardless, no one's planning to open the door to this guy, so the "body guards" are mostly for her peace of mind and sense of security.

Quote:
You had the ick factor or negative gut reaction ..or however you characterized your feeling about this ..... I meant using the poly doctrine or thinking to help you. Use those principles.....can't make others feel anything ( which implies you wont be able to manage how the others feel as well ), everyone's responsible for their own relationship(s), honest communication, compersion, etc, etc,....
Ahh, I see the misunderstanding. I actually draw a distinction between "icky feelings" (envy, jealousy, insecurity, etc) and "bad gut feelings" (my body telling me that there is a real problem and I shouldn't just "work through it.")

Icky feelings (jealousy) I always deal with. I force myself if I have to, but I never use them to manipulate people into changing their behaviour just so I don't have to feel anything negative. However, I've ignored bad gut feelings before. The last time I did, I ended up in a ditch. The weather was bad, my stomach was in knots and I did NOT want to drive... but I did anyway, and spun out and rolled 2.5 times. I've learned to trust gut feelings. My challenge now is learning to distinguish them from "icky" feelings.

So while icky feelings indicate a need for me to work on myself and confront my insecurities, gut feelings indicate a need to put the brakes on and re-assess the situation.

Quote:
Never heard the term monoamorous is that new?
Well, yes and no. Around here, we usually just use the word "mono" with the "amory" inferred. But we make a big deal out of distinguishing between "polyamory" and "just fucking around." So for the sake of clarity, I started using the terms polyamory and polysexuality, acknowledging that they are not identical. The opposite of poly is mono, hence monoamory and monosexuality. I've also known people to refer to themselves as asexual, so I suppose you could also have anamory...

I actually describe my husband as "barely monoamorous" because he's not naturally the type to put any kind of work into a romantic relationship. He's always been the bachelor's bachelor, and whenever his girlfriends would become "too much work" he would usually bail. He grew up in a very emotionally stiffled home, so he's always struggled to deal with emotions, both his own and those of others. Until me, he'd never met anyone "worth" putting all that work into, and he's not the least bit interested in putting that much work squared. Nor does he have the time and energy. He's got a 19yo daughter who takes a lot of his energy and "work quota," and he loves his job and can tend towards workaholism.

I guess I should clarify that when I say he self-identifies as monoamorous, it's not like he used that word. He described what I said above and added that even if he had the time and energy, he has no desire for multiple romantic relationships of his own, but that he can accept my own polyamory. Then he went on to say "but, just because I don't want other girlfriends, that doesn't mean I might not want to have casual sex every now and then" hence the polysexuality.
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Gralson: my husband (works out of town).
Auto: my girlfriend (lives with her husband Zoffee).

The most dangerous phrase in the English language is "we've always done it this way."

Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 06-20-2012 at 05:58 PM.
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  #29  
Old 06-20-2012, 09:32 PM
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SC, I use something similar to describe how I feel about various genders (biromantic, heterosexual); your use of monoamory makes sense to me.
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  #30  
Old 06-21-2012, 02:38 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
...by the time he's broken down the door and pinned her to the floor, the gun isn't going to do a fuck of a lot of good.
Maybe you and your husband, and some other of her friends, could all chip in and send her to a Model Mugging course, so she can learn to deliver a knockout blow to an assailant. I attended only a graduation a long time ago and learned a lot just from that, taking a course would be a good investment. They even teach them how to deal with assailants who are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, which affects their responses. You say you took a self-defense class yourself, I would hope you found it useful - perhaps sending her to one would be a better investment of time and energy than guarding her every night (and the sex), especially if she is feeling disempowered by her ex's assholish treatment of her. It might really help her self-esteem in a more lasting way than getting it on with your hubs or anyone else would.
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