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  #251  
Old 06-11-2012, 09:31 PM
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Kommander Kommander is offline
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The concept of cheating being okay sometimes has been mentioned a few times in this thread, mostly to do with terminal or prolonged illness. I thought of something else that I would consider "justifiable cheating." I meant to mention it in my first post in this thread, but couldn't think of a way to work it in with what else I wrote.

If one is treating their partner abusively, as far as I'm concerned, they give up any expectation of honesty or promise-keeping from the target of their abuse. This is probably the only situation in which I would be comfortable participating in cheating. I've done this once before. However, if I do it again, I'll need to actually see the abuse taking place. When it happened before I took her word for it and it turned out she was lying to manipulate me after I turned her down the first dozen or so times. She was actually abusing him, and later me.

This definitely falls under the "not unethical but definitely stupid" category, and I doubt I'd do it again, but from a purely theoretical standpoint I do not feel it is unethical.
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  #252  
Old 06-11-2012, 09:50 PM
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This definitely falls under the "not unethical but definitely stupid" category, and I doubt I'd do it again, but from a purely theoretical standpoint I do not feel it is unethical.
I do. What about the repercussions for the one doing the cheating in that situation? (e.g. do you WANT your partner bludgeoned when hir spouse finds out?) And how is it ethical to get involved with someone who's being abused, but make no attempt to help hir get away?
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  #253  
Old 06-11-2012, 10:22 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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I would actually think it an additional reason against cheating. If someone is in a situation where they are in danger, I will not contribute to the danger. I will not date them and justify their staying in the relationship. I would make leaving the relationship a condition for dating me, and for staying my friend. Hell, I wouldn't even make it a condition for anything, but an obligation, and I would do it for them if needed.

I don't think you can honestly have someone as a partner, or a friend, and let them be in an abusive relationship. It doesn't seem right at all.
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  #254  
Old 06-11-2012, 10:42 PM
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When I find out that abuse is going on in a relationship, my primary concern is helping the victim get out of the situation. Usually, the thought of becoming romantically involved with the person doesn't even cross my mind. When it does, I do my best to set those feelings aside at least until the situation is over with. Most of the times I've been in the situation and I was interested in the person, afterward it doesn't feel right to pursue romance.

If physical abuse is going on, I try to get them away as fast as possible and don't have time for anything else. More often though, what I see is emotional or psychological abuse, which is more difficult to deal with and takes longer. Most of the time, the victim doesn't realize their being abused. The abuser, however, usually wants me out of the picture and act like dickheads no matter what I do.

As far as provoking the abuser, they usually don't need an excuse. Attempting to get the victim out can provoke them as well.

There are other ethical concerns. It's been pointed out to me before that it's possible that I'm imagining abuse because I want justification in "stealing" someone's girlfriend. However, this was pointed out to me by an abuser, shortly after he suggested I have a secondary relationship with his girlfriend, so, I don't know how much weight his observation carries, or really what his point was since he already said I could be involved with her... Anyway, my point was, abusers suck. I wasn't describing how I typically go about handling abusive situations.
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  #255  
Old 06-11-2012, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Xared View Post
If physical abuse is going on, I try to get them away as fast as possible and don't have time for anything else. More often though, what I see is emotional or psychological abuse, which is more difficult to deal with and takes longer. Most of the time, the victim doesn't realize their being abused. The abuser, however, usually wants me out of the picture and act like dickheads no matter what I do.
I did. And my situation (admittedly not a relationship) could so easily have been rectified, had anyone believed it was as simple as removing me from the proximity of my abuser. All that mindset accomplished was me withdrawing my trust from all but about three people in my life. When in doubt? Please ask whether the victim understands what's going on, instead of assuming.

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As far as provoking the abuser, they usually don't need an excuse. Attempting to get the victim out can provoke them as well.
Which is why you work with professionals on this. I didn't say "march up to the abuser and have a great big pissing contest about who gets the victim". Stupid about these things I ain't. What has your approach been so far on helping people out of abusive situations?
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  #256  
Old 06-12-2012, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovefromgirl View Post
I did. And my situation (admittedly not a relationship) could so easily have been rectified, had anyone believed it was as simple as removing me from the proximity of my abuser. All that mindset accomplished was me withdrawing my trust from all but about three people in my life. When in doubt? Please ask whether the victim understands what's going on, instead of assuming.
From the way that's worded, I take it you're out of the situation. I'm glad to hear that, and I know exactly what you're talking about; I've lived it. My father was extremely psychologically abusive, and my first girlfriend was emotionally abusive and later became physically abusive. When I tried to talk to others about it, they would deny any abuse was going on and I was promptly told to "stop being a whiny little bitch." As a result, I have few people I trust as well. My statement abut people not realizing it's going on is from reflection on past experiences. I don't make assumptions beforehand.


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Originally Posted by lovefromgirl View Post
Which is why you work with professionals on this. I didn't say "march up to the abuser and have a great big pissing contest about who gets the victim". Stupid about these things I ain't. What has your approach been so far on helping people out of abusive situations?
I'm actually in the process of becoming a professional. Well, relationship counseling/sex therapy, but this issue will come up. And yes, I do realize that taking a few psychology classes does not make me an expert. As for my approach, it depends on the situation. I usually start by pointing out the abuser's behavior and asking how the victim feels about it. From there, it can go any number of ways. If it's not something I can handle myself, I refer them to Turning Point or a similar organization.

The situation that I've run into most often, and the most difficult I've found to deal with, is a female victim and a passive-aggressive emotionally abusive male. At the very least she realizes she's being treated poorly, even if she won't acknowledge abusive behavior, and she wants out of the relationship. Unfortunately, they live together, and he has "no where else to go." Whenever she tries to end things, he breaks down into tears and tries to make her feel bad about it. Once or twice, the guy has threatened suicide if she left him.

A few years ago, a co-worker of mine was in one of these situations. She wanted him out, but was afraid she'd fail and things would get worse. She made a few different arrangements if things got bad and she needed to leave, but was hesitant to do anything more permanent. Eventually, I said "Yeah, kicking him out is going to be difficult, but it'll be short, and then over. If you don't do it, you'll be miserable indefinitely. which seems like the better option to you?" Surprisingly, that got through to her. A few days later she went through with it, and she's been happier since. That was the easiest that particular situation has ever been, and it took several months.

Anyway, my point was I have no tolerance or respect for abusers and therefore don't see cheating on them as a betrayal of trust, not that it was a good idea. In fact, I recall describing doing so as "definitely stupid."
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  #257  
Old 06-12-2012, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xared View Post
When I tried to talk to others about it, they would deny any abuse was going on and I was promptly told to "stop being a whiny little bitch." As a result, I have few people I trust as well. My statement abut people not realizing it's going on is from reflection on past experiences.
You know exactly what it's like, then. Okay. I hate that I can run into someone on a forum who does, but at least we're both out. That's important. And because I know men can be hit with it, too, I am trying to keep gender as neutral as possible. I knew a woman who did this to a male friend of mine, except that all of our friends put up with it. I didn't. Me against the silence of the entire community--sod it, they could untangle him. I was done.

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I'm actually in the process of becoming a professional. Well, relationship counseling/sex therapy, but this issue will come up.
Inevitably, yes. I'm looking to enter social work, so... ditto.

Quote:
And yes, I do realize that taking a few psychology classes does not make me an expert. As for my approach, it depends on the situation. I usually start by pointing out the abuser's behavior and asking how the victim feels about it. From there, it can go any number of ways. If it's not something I can handle myself, I refer them to Turning Point or a similar organization.
Actually, if the victim won't or can't approach a licensed professional, a friend who gets it is a good beginning. As long as we know when we're in over our heads!

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Unfortunately, they live together, and he has "no where else to go."
Under the nearest on-ramp is just fine for vermin like that. I am biased, yes.

Quote:
Eventually, I said "Yeah, kicking him out is going to be difficult, but it'll be short, and then over. If you don't do it, you'll be miserable indefinitely. which seems like the better option to you?" Surprisingly, that got through to her. A few days later she went through with it, and she's been happier since. That was the easiest that particular situation has ever been, and it took several months.
All about finding the key, isn't it? I'm glad you could. I'm glad she could, too.

I guess my other qualm about sleeping with victims of abuse is this: they often needs to find themselves again after a long codependent period. I remember not having much of an identity except "angry, ambitious eighth-grader." It got me a trip to D.C. and a fair few accolades in my school's music program, but not much else. Only after years of therapy and finding out who I was underneath all that baggage was I a suitable partner to anyone. Speaking as a woman who went through such major breaches of trust, I had no idea what constituted healthy boundaries. (Complicating matters further, my parents weren't exactly demonstrating good relationship skills...) So at the very least, between abuse and new relationship, put "therapy"!

This I now trust you to know, but for the benefit of completing the conversation, I want to put it out there.
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  #258  
Old 06-12-2012, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by lovefromgirl View Post
This I now trust you to know, but for the benefit of completing the conversation, I want to put it out there.
Yeah, this was kind of a tangent. As it does relate to the subject, when I brought up abuse originally, I wasn't taking other ethical concerns into account. I can't come up with a hypothetical situation involving a victim of abuse in which other ethical concerns aren't present. So, even if cheating in itself isn't unethical in such a situation, it does not mean that is is ethical to proceed.
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  #259  
Old 06-12-2012, 10:18 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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Helping someone get OUT of an abusive relationship is an honourable thing to do, in my opinion.

Getting into a romantic entanglement with them while they are trying to sort out such a dysfunctional situation, possibly taking advantage of their vulnerabilities - I really struggle to understand how that could be remotely ethical or healthy for them. And I can't see this as "justifiable cheating" under any circumstances.
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Last edited by CielDuMatin; 06-12-2012 at 10:20 PM.
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  #260  
Old 06-12-2012, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
Helping someone get OUT of an abusive relationship is an honourable thing to do, in my opinion.

Getting into a romantic entanglement with them while they are trying to sort out such a dysfunctional situation, possibly taking advantage of their vulnerabilities - I really struggle to understand how that could be remotely ethical or healthy for them. And I can't see this as "justifiable cheating" under any circumstances.
I think the only dispute here is that I initially was only taking cheating into account when I brought the subject up, whereas others were thinking of the situation as a whole, which I did not consider at first. I was thinking more along the lines of "can I think of a situation in which cheating isn't wrong?" Which led me to "is there a situation in which breaking an agreement is okay?" and I concluded with "Abusers, screw them!" When the situation as a whole is taken into account, I completely agree that it's unethical.

In other words, I was wrong, and I'll sit here and be wrong in my wrongness.
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