Confused, need opinions

[JaneQSmythe]

Originally Posted by Emm

Take him at his word. If he means what he says then everyone's a winner. If he doesn't, eventually he'll learn to say what he means.

This.

MrS and I had been married for about three years when we made this breakthrough - after having the same stupid disagreement forty-eleven times. We then made a concerted effort to a.) say what the fuck we mean in the first place and b.) always respond to what the other person actually says rather than what you think they mean (especially if you think they mean something else - it really forces people to examine what they are really asking for)

*****

OP - unfortunately this is not as uncommon of a scenario as it should be. unfortunately a fair number of men see sex as a commodity that can be negotiated for.

When Dude first learned of the original boundaries of my relationship with MrS he was shocked that MrS didn't have an "open invitation" to join me and whatever woman I was with. Apparently in the few other "open marriages" he had witnessed this was one of the "rules" and he assumed that was how they all operated.

The perspective that seems to drive this: the "only reason" a man would "allow his woman" to have sex with other women is so that he can benefit from it in terms of threesomes with hot bi babes.

Sorry, but this seems to be where your husband is at.

Luckily for me this was never MrS's perspective - although he admits that the mere possibility of being invited to join in occasionally is a nice "perk" (it's not the norm for us but has happened periodically over the last 20 years )

Also luckily for me it didn't take too long for me to show Dude how skewed that perspective really is (and I was just taking the time to "educate a friend" at that point - this was well before he and I were involved).

I tend to get involved with bisexual women with male primaries. Their partners are ok with them sleeping with other women but not with other men (which was my own situation until recently - WHY so many men seem to feel this way is a whole nother topic...)

So, I ask Dude - I don't want to sleep with VV's boyfriend, she doesn't want to sleep with my husband, I DO want to sleep with her and she with me. My husband may or may not want to sleep with VV. Her boyfriend may or may not want to sleep with me. Each primary relationship has a OPP.

If you add a "no sex with another woman unless I am invited" rule then nothing can happen here. But why should VV and I - the two people that have a mutual sexual attraction - have to forego sex? What sense does that make? Why does that seem more "fair"? How does that increase the overall happiness of everyone involved?

Sorry this got so long but it is a scenario that seems to come up fairly often so apparently it's been stewing around in my brain for a while.

JaneQ

[pandabear]

Originally Posted by Phy

Sorry to hear that you are exposed to such a rough situation. I know that I would be extremely disappointed and kind of outraged if my partner would disregard me in this way. As I see it, you told him what was going on, you never did something behind his back and he isn't able to gauge his reaction about what is going on. All fine and well, it's totally natural to be overwhelmed by one's own emotional reaction, but the way he is pressuring you and giving you ultimatums and such ... real deal breaker for me. I would never allow anyone to treat me like this or demand that I should treat another person like this ( in your case the girl you are involved with).

Just for a better understanding: Is this some kind of normal behaviour from your point of view? Who is the one getting his needs met primarily in your relationship? It sounds like he comes from either a place of security, feeling absolutely right in demanding this of you or if he is totally insecure and overreacting in this situation. I can't tell what it is right now. Depending on the circumstances, you should either put your foot down and stand up for yourself or reassure him that he still holds importance to you and you aren't just walking over his needs.

Those would be my first impressions. Of course, I can be way off here. Wishing you luck nevertheless how the situation may work out.

Thank you for the reply. so as to our question...

He has always been the dominant one in the relationship. It is typical for him to get what he wants at the expense of what I want, that has been the norm unfortunately and for a very long time I let him get away with it and was very passive. In the past couple of years though I started trying to assert myself and ask for the things I want, he sees it as challenging him.

I feel like he is saying that my needs and desires are not important or that they are if he can use them for his benefit and then only on terms that he lays out. The whole thing just feels hurtful to me and I cannot seem to get through his jealousy to a place where he understands where I am coming from. I honestly think that our marriage would be stronger and us happier in this arrangement but he is unwilling to even consider it unless he is having sex with my partner too. That would be ok with me but for the fact that he is literally demanding it when he hasn't even met her (just outrageous to me). And he goes on to tell me that I can have alone time with her only if this happens, it feels like he is using something he knows that I want to bait me into exploiting her for his pleasure which feels really bad to me.

I just dont know where to go from here. I have a deadline and no answers. On the one hand I have a good marriage for the most part, I know he loves me, we have two great kids, all that goes with that..... but I want a girlfriend, and if he makes me cut contact with her I am going to be unhappy and resentful about it. He has stated over and over how selfish my wants are, maybe they are. I just think I am human....

[Phy]

Ok, I will be blunt, sorry in advance. But honestly: Stand up for yourself. If you give in now, as you seem to have done before again and again, nothing will change. You are absolutely right to feel hurt and unimportant to him. From what you describe here, that's exactly the way he sees you. Given the point that people can be too shocked to see the truth or the appropriate way to handle situations (just experienced something similar) if you mean anything to him he will come around and at least talk to you. If this matter is more important than your relationship and he stubbornly insists on his selfish demands, I wouldn't keep up with such a selfish person.

His ultimate threat (divorce) seems like a prank. What does he gain by divorcing you? If he loves you he should be hurt by this as well. This doesn't seems to be the case. He doesn't say: "I can't handle you being with another at all means. This isn't something I can do, my love works only exclusively and needs exclusivity." He says: "Sorry, but as long as I can't sleep with the one you sleep with (or maybe even who sleeps with you as he seems to be really posessive of you) and as long as you aren't beneficial for me in regard to get new sexual partners lining up for my pleasure, this is no longer of any meaning to me." I would ask myself: "Is this all our relationship means to him?"

I would advice you to sit this out. He won't expect you to do this. Normally you always gave in, show him that there is more to your wishes and your self respect than he expects.

So much for the aggressive part. If he really has other problems here except his ego and twisted vision of your relationship and your duties, meaning if he has a problem with jealousy or is generally overwhelmed by the situation, offer some middle ground. Keep it low with your girlfriend for a while. Offer to talk to him about his problems and to help him work through them. Don't do the same he is about/has already done to you by just running your head against the wall. You shouldn't give in and tell him to end all of this and that everything was a big mistake if you feel that you need this to stay true to your self. But offer him some time to adjust to the new situation.

It sounds as if there may be some bits of co-dependency or at least a wished kind of forced co-dependency on his part (wanting to be involved in your other relationships/everything you do by all means). If you get the chance to talk to him try to get the message through that you are two persons, not a wondrously mingled couple-person. Each of you needs different things. One can't shape the partner the way one wants. This becomes unhealthy pretty fast if you try to do so excessively.

Hoping this makes sense and I got the picture rightly.

[AnnabelMore]

"He says that he must get something out of my bisexuality or I cannot explore it."

This is the thing in your post that made me saddest. It's not that he somehow thinks that both of you being involved with a woman together will make it less of a "threat" to your relationship, as many people in his position seem to at first... at least that would be about what's best for both of you... it sounds like it's just about HIS pleasure and fulfillment being paramount and your own wants/needs/development not being valid in and of themselves. Ugh ugh ugh.

This is not a person who is demonstrating any respect or compression that I can see.

"He says "would you really jeopardize out 13 year marriage for her?" and I am like no but I will for ME."

This made me very hopeful for you. This is exactly the right attitude, and it's so sad that he doesn't get why you would want to stand up for your right to have authentic interactions with others on your own terms, in a way that feels right to you.

I think that putting a pause on things with her while you sort this out with him is the right way to go. It sounds like she's a good friend who's willing to give you the time and space you need, and this way you don't drag her into any drama.

My bf actually went through a 10-second phase of something a little like this. I was already dating my gf when he and I started negotiating what a relationship between he and I could look like. Poly was a foreign concept to him. At one point he said "Well, it has to be ok for me to sleep with Gia [my gf] too." My jaw dropped. When I managed to pick it up off the floor, I said "Dude! You don't even *know* her! Of course it's ok for you to have sex or a relationship with another person as long as you're communicating with me about it but please don't assume that you have ANY rights to this particular woman or that there is any reason whatsoever to expect that she should or will want you." He got what I was saying immediately and felt a little embarrassed.

You and he may be able to find some useful resources at www.morethantwo.com, it's a great beginner's primer. But honestly, I don't know that I could/would stay with someone who's acting the way he's acting... he's got some serious work to do on his capacity for empathy!

Good luck!!!

[pandabear]

Originally Posted by AnnabelMore

"He says that he must get something out of my bisexuality or I cannot explore it."

This is the thing in your post that made me saddest. It's not that he somehow thinks that both of you being involved with a woman together will make it less of a "threat" to your relationship, as many people in his position seem to at first... at least that would be about what's best for both of you... it sounds like it's just about HIS pleasure and fulfillment being paramount and your own wants/needs/development not being valid in and of themselves. Ugh ugh ugh.

This is not a person who is demonstrating any respect or compression that I can see.

"He says "would you really jeopardize out 13 year marriage for her?" and I am like no but I will for ME."

This made me very hopeful for you. This is exactly the right attitude, and it's so sad that he doesn't get why you would want to stand up for your right to have authentic interactions with others on your own terms, in a way that feels right to you.

I think that putting a pause on things with her while you sort this out with him is the right way to go. It sounds like she's a good friend who's willing to give you the time and space you need, and this way you don't drag her into any drama.

My bf actually went through a 10-second phase of something a little like this. I was already dating my gf when he and I started negotiating what a relationship between he and I could look like. Poly was a foreign concept to him. At one point he said "Well, it has to be ok for me to sleep with Gia [my gf] too." My jaw dropped. When I managed to pick it up off the floor, I said "Dude! You don't even *know* her! Of course it's ok for you to have sex or a relationship with another person as long as you're communicating with me about it but please don't assume that you have ANY rights to this particular woman or that there is any reason whatsoever to expect that she should or will want you." He got what I was saying immediately and felt a little embarrassed.

You and he may be able to find some useful resources at www.morethantwo.com, it's a great beginner's primer. But honestly, I don't know that I could/would stay with someone who's acting the way he's acting... he's got some serious work to do on his capacity for empathy!

Good luck!!!

Yeah that made me the saddest too because in that instant i felt like his chosen mindset will just not allow for him to realize what I need at all. Its always gonna be about his needs and wants.

I wrote him a very long letter a few minutes ago and sent it to him via email. I think writing things down and not worrying about him blowing up in anger right in front of me works well for our communication right now. Otherwise, i feel like his anger detract from my ability to be honest with him and i think that is important. for a very long time I didn't let my wants be known because he didn't react well to them but I am at a point that I cannot compromise who i am anymore.

In the letter I talked about how he seems to feel that anything other than total monogamy of the heart is a betrayal and that I don't feel that way. there are a lot of people I love and who love me and I don't think any of that detracts from what I feel for him. To be honest he cant seem to get past the fact that he isn't going to get laid if i am. I told him that it isn't only about sex and that we are keeping score here. Its about my need to use the one life that I have to know myself and to know other people and I dont think loving two people is bad.

Thank you guys and girls so much for your responses, I really appreciate the support and the viewpoints on this. I was starting to think I was the crazy one for thinking the way I do and its nice to see that other people have the same ideas. i jsut hope I can convey then to him in a way that is clear and I dont want to hurt him by it.

[redpepper]

I wonder how much of this has to do with him being military. I am with a military man and that whole stupid bossing people around, control, higher command bullshit drives me crazy. I don't tolerate it myself, but then I'm pretty dominant myself. His home life is not the military.

I would wonder if he feels a sense of lack of control as a result though. I wonder if he has a hard time being away from you and being deployed often. The sense of closeness and commitment that comes with being close can wear down so easily. Especially over time. I wonder if you could try a different approach? Maybe lavish him with love and understanding while standing your ground. Its absolutely ridiculous that he thinks he can just take sex from someone, that would be rape, but whatever; maybe instead of saying so you could tell him firmly that you will not accept his three day ultimatum, will not stop seeing this woman, will not go near the idea of. A threesome or any other sex that involves him and that you appreciate he is having a hard time and love him and miss him. Then add that when he is ready to talk about boundaries rather than rules you will be waiting and ready to negotiate with respect and understanding.

[pandabear]

Originally Posted by redpepper

I wonder how much of this has to do with him being military. I am with a military man and that whole stupid bossing people around, control, higher command bullshit drives me crazy. I don't tolerate it myself, but then I'm pretty dominant myself. His home life is not the military.

I would wonder if he feels a sense of lack of control as a result though. I wonder if he has a hard time being away from you and being deployed often. The sense of closeness and commitment that comes with being close can wear down so easily. Especially over time. I wonder if you could try a different approach? Maybe lavish him with love and understanding while standing your ground. Its absolutely ridiculous that he thinks he can just take sex from someone, that would be rape, but whatever; maybe instead of saying so you could tell him firmly that you will not accept his three day ultimatum, will not stop seeing this woman, will not go near the idea of. A threesome or any other sex that involves him and that you appreciate he is having a hard time and love him and miss him. Then add that when he is ready to talk about boundaries rather than rules you will be waiting and ready to negotiate with respect and understanding.

ya know its like you know him or something! LMAO!! He definitely has some control issues going on that are related to the military. part of the problem is that I did put up with his behavior for a long long time and once you allow it, its very hard to break that pattern. I was 21 and very naive when we married and then.... I grew up and decided to run my own life . I think you hit the nail on the head on all counts and my previous letter to him that I mentioned earlier was a variation of what you just wrote. I did add though that even though I was not willing to exploit her for his pleasure that I would be open to his experimenting with someone sexually as well as long as there are boundaries and rules for both of us. I told him that ultimatums and time limits are not productive to a loving relationship and this has to be an ongoing discussion to be useful. I pretty much told him, this is what I need to be ME and I am not willing to compromise who I am to stay with you.

To my utter surprise he sent me a long letter back and seems to be a bit more understanding although he is still having difficulty with my emotions for her and is worried that they may grow deeper and jeopardize our relationship. He feels like I splitting my love for him and giving half to her. I just wrote back and addressed all his concerns as best I could in a very open and supportive way. hopefully, we are getting somewhere. i am just glad he was willing to talk instead of continuing to sling out rules and demands.

[Emm]

Where's the "Like" button when you need it?

[pandabear]

So just an update if anyone cares LOL. As of this morning I believe we are well on our way to an arrangement that works for everyone. We exchanged several long long emails about our needs and wants and our relationship. He finally admitted that he was in need of some things too after I brought up giving him some freedom to experiment as well. He was and still is a little insecure about this but he says that he wants to try it and wants to see both of us happy. I couldn't be more pleased so far. I know it will be hard for both of us in the beginning but I am very optimistic about this and the fact that we were able to communicate effectively eventually and get to a place where we both understood each other. I told him that I am not a cheater and am not going to become one because of this and he agreed that honesty and openness was a better arrangement than cheating or feeling unfulfilled for years would be. I thank everyone who replied with suggestions and thoughts, it helped me explain things to him and put things into perspective for me. so..... Yep... happy

[AnnabelMore]

So glad to hear that things are working out for you guys! Congrats on standing up for yourself.