Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > General Poly Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #171  
Old 05-24-2012, 07:57 PM
lovefromgirl's Avatar
lovefromgirl lovefromgirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Great Soggy Northeast
Posts: 353
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrspolyamorous View Post
I am a firm believer in there being more to the story as to why someone might seek a relationship discreetly outside their primary relationship.
And in the event that "discreet" turns into "whoops, got discovered", what do you do? Because you've just helped screw up the primary relationship.

Quote:
Some people haven't had sex in years in their own marriage for whatever reasons and truly want to fall in love with someone on the side in order to have a reason to feel like living again.
So they go to counseling, have the poly talk, and deal from there. If not, they divorce.

Quote:
They might have a lot of integrity to keep their family together. I can respect that.
No. No, there really isn't any integrity in doing that. Got a family? Be honest with them. Got kids? They can handle "Mommy and Daddy aren't in love anymore" better than "...and one of us has hurt the other in order to see if we could all still live under the same roof. Be grateful!"

Never going to accept "for the children/family" as an excuse, sorry. And I'm never going to forgive the kind of person who does this to a family, because of what it did to mine.
__________________
"I swear, if we live through this somebody's going to find their automatic shower preferences reprogrammed for ice water."

Refuge in Audacity { home of the post-raph stunner }
Reply With Quote
  #172  
Old 05-24-2012, 08:17 PM
CielDuMatin's Avatar
CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 1,456
Default

If others wants to have as the foundation of their relationships a lie, then that's their call, I guess, but I won't.

A lot of people say that polyamory doesn't have a victim. Cheating does most definitely, whether the victim know it or not. Coming up with bizarre justifications is often very creative, but ultimately it's trying to find a justification for lying to a person with whom you entered a legal agreement, and made promises to.

If someone wants to have a relationship with me, and gives me the story that they aren't happy with their current spouse, then my reaction is "good, in order to have a relationship with me, you are going to need to either tell them about it, and I need to be able to verify that you did, or finish the relationship." I don't want to be caught up in the drama, thanks.

If getting an orgasm is more important to them than acting with integrity towards people who they are supposed to care about, then we have nothing in common.
__________________
Please check out The Birdcage - an open, friendly Polyamory forum for all parts of New York State
http://www.thebirdcage.org/

"Listen, or your tongue will make you deaf." - Native American Proverb
Reply With Quote
  #173  
Old 05-24-2012, 09:16 PM
GreenMom GreenMom is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 94
Default

Re: the example in which someone cheats because their spouse has a debilitating disease and they need to fulfill their sexual needs... no, that doesn't make it okay to me at all. I think that would be pretty awful, to be going behind your spouse's back because you don't want to hurt them but just have to have sex with someone. Really? Ugh.

I've fought, and won, against cancer. If I had been married at that time and ever learned my husband went behind my back to get his "needs" fulfilled during such a horrible and difficult time our marriage would be over. Having gone through an illness like that I can't even imagine I'd have the desire to cheat, let alone much time for my sanctioned secondary relationship, if my husband was fighting against a disease, I'd be way too busy taking care of him and spending all the time with him I could in case he passed, I wouldn't be worried about how often I got laid.

The cheating on a disease-fighting spouse angle aside... I didn't really give any explanation on my answer earlier so here is a bit more.

The dishonesty/lying issues aside, I don't know how I could be in a relationship with someone but hidden from their spouse. Does that mean I could never go over to their house? I imagine scheduling dates would be difficult, since it would have to be in time that the spouse would be "unaware". It sounds like a logisitical nightmare. Toss back in the dishonesty angle, and I would never be able to enjoy any of those stolen moments. And, if this fictional person is willing to be dishonest to their other partner about me, what are they being dishonest about with me? Cause I'm not dumb enough to think I'm magically the only one who wouldn't be lied to or about or etc.

I know not all marriages are fantastic and some people are in really crummy situations but IMHO if you are making the decision to stay married, then there is NEVER any excuse, reason, justification or whatever you'd like to call it, to cheat.
__________________
"This, too, is sacred."
I am my own primary.

Last edited by GreenMom; 05-24-2012 at 09:18 PM. Reason: typos
Reply With Quote
  #174  
Old 05-24-2012, 09:26 PM
km34 km34 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 624
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ready2Fly View Post
I do think that suffering is built into strict monogamy, though, because it's the natural desire of humans to want to make intimate connections with people around them. When that desire arises, strict monogamy reduces your choices to betraying your partner by acting on it, or betraying yourself by suppressing the desire.
I don't see this being the case in all monogamous situations - in some, sure, but certainly not all. If someone truly believes in monogamy, then there is at least one more option: taking that desire and turning it into passion with your partner.

I do that when there is a person I really want, but know it would never work. I focus that desire and that energy on my actual partner(s) and usually have a very good time because of it.
Reply With Quote
  #175  
Old 05-24-2012, 09:41 PM
km34 km34 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 624
Default

I have a very black and white view of cheating. It's wrong. Period.

Is it understandable? Sometimes, but that doesn't change the fact that it is wrong. I'm not going to condemn people for life because they make an error in judgement (cheating vs. talking to their partner or leaving the relationship that don't meet their needs), but I am certainly not going to aid them in their endeavor.

And by aiding, I mean being involved with that person romantically/sexually, keeping their secret, or any other action that would help them along the way.
Reply With Quote
  #176  
Old 05-24-2012, 10:01 PM
Overthinker Overthinker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 13
Default

Itís kind of ironic that I stumbled across this thread today. I donít usually post but keep up by lurking a lot, but I havenít even lurked for a couple of weeks. Iím having a really hard time right now because this exact topic destroyed my quad 13 days ago. We had been together for the past year and a half and were friends for about a year prior to that.

Like everyone else we had our ups and downs. My husband (M) and his girlfriend (N) really had it out at the beginning of the month because he confronted her on some things that werenít adding up and he was concerned that she may be fooling around on the side. N has a long history of infidelity so M was always a little cautious with her. She swore up and down that she was a changed woman and asked him to give her the benefit of the doubt instead of falsely accusing her just because of her past. After their argument the status of their relationship was left unresolved because he needed to think about what he really wanted. In the mean time, N told her husband/my ex-boyfriend (H) what they had argued about and he got really upset wanting to know why my M was so worried about if she was being truthful or not and took Mís skepticism as jealously and it didnít settle well.

After their argument we all had conversations that we needed to find the time for the four of us to sit down and hash things out and make clearer expectations for everyone and all the configurations. After that we would all make the decision if the quad would be able to continue and if not we would walk away from the sexual aspect of the relationship but would strive to remain close friends. Well because of work schedules and people being out of town we didnít get a chance to all sit down and talk.

Thirteen days ago M and I at the last minute decided to attend a get together at H and Nís home in an effort to show them we were willing to work on things. Even though everyone felt uncomfortable at first we all settled in and M, H and N ended up talking about how everyone really wanted to work things out and they were all on board. Well the tables were turned abruptly when H accidentally saw a message pop up on Nís phone. Then a ďfriendĒ of theirs told him of some conversations she had been having with another man. Well throughout the course of the night, H along with M and I found out that she had been talking to several men, was being very suggestive and explicit in her texts and even had a picture of their ďfriendísĒ penis on her phone. Now, she and the ďfriendĒ have cheated together on H in the past and her actions with him was M had been questioning all along.

I confronted her, even though she was not sober, and letís just say it didnít go over very well. I was furious because she betrayed the two men that I love and now my mind was racing on what she has possibly exposed the rest of us to. We all ended up confronting her at the same time and it became heated. M and I got H out of the house then we left as well but not before M told N what he thought of her actions and told her ďgoodbyeĒ. We found H at our house when we got home. He obviously was upset and continued to find more things that she had done and ended up in a yelling match with N on the phone while he was there. You could imagine all the things he said about her and what he planned on doing in the morning.

Well H went home that night and the next morning M and I asked him to please not just sweep this under the rug this time, especially since she has cheated on him multiple times in the past. H told me that he didnít really think anything physical happened (which is what he wants to believe) and that it wasnít right what she was doing but asked me if it was worth losing everything over. I asked him to talk to me in person later that day.

I went over that morning and talked to N. I asked her why she would have to be messing around with other men when she has two wonderful men in her life that love her to death. She made tons of excuses and denied anything physical happening. She eventually told me that she just didnít know why she does what she does. I explained to her that sometimes I have felt that my personal integrity has been jeopardized by being a friend to her because of her past and the fact that I have always had my suspicions that she had remained unfaithful. I apologized to her for acting irrationally the night. I then kissed her on the forehead, told her that I loved her and her family but I couldnít be a part of her life because of what she does to people.

H has yet to talk to me. I know that is a specific directive from N. He has talked to M a couple of times and has told him that he agrees with N that I went about things wrongly when I confronted her that night. M had to remind H that I was hurt and was hurting because she had betrayed the two men that I loved and that Nís actions were what initiated everything. Through M and Hís conversations I have learned that they invited my kids to one of their kidsí birthday party but we, specifically me, are not welcome in their home or to be around their family. H says it is all Nís doing and he canít control how she feels about me right now. They do not know if they can continue to be friends with us and we are starting to wonder the same thing.

So now I find that I am an absolute wreck. I tear up at the drop of a hat. Everything around me is reminding me of H and I hate it. I just want to scream. I am so mad that Nís lack of respect for the rest of us, especially for her husband, has caused all of us to fall apart. I feel robbed because everything with H, including having him as my friend, has been yanked from me and there is nothing I can do about it. I miss their kids. I hate that I canít be there for the upcoming birthday knowing that they will ask about us. I hurt for my kids because they have lost their other ďfamilyĒ and I donít know how to break it to them. And it makes me even madder when I know that N is blaming all of this on me and is not taking any responsibility for her own actions.

On the flip side M is struggling a little with how hard I am taking things but all and all is being very supportive and he is trying to be as understanding as he can. He is actually relieved that things are over. I have tried to explain to him that he has his anger from her betraying him to fall back on and sort of make him feel better about the decision he made to walk away from her. I didnít get a chance to make a decision. It was made for me and I didnít want it to be over even though we all agreed that if one person was done everyone would be done. It has also made M a little insecure and he thinks that I feel that he alone is not enough for me, which is not the case at all.

So back to the original post, is it a deal breaker? Absolutely. But as poly relationships are designed, the more people that are involved the more it just sucks.

Any advice on how to deal with the grief that I am going through would be greatly appreciated as well. Thanks to all that have actually read through all of that.
Reply With Quote
  #177  
Old 05-24-2012, 10:18 PM
mrspolyamorous's Avatar
mrspolyamorous mrspolyamorous is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovefromgirl View Post
And in the event that "discreet" turns into "whoops, got discovered", what do you do? Because you've just helped screw up the primary relationship.

Their relationship was screwed before they considered any kind of relationship with someone else. I believe people are assuming the relationship was ok and one seeking emotional and sexual (both can be mutually exclusive) then and only then did the relationship go awry. Cheating isn't necessarily something done by a sex addicted person who sees his sexual prowess as a game and it using women to fullfill that.


So they go to counseling, have the poly talk, and deal from there. If not, they divorce.

Not all relationships are capable of going poly. Not all relationships feel like divorce is an option. If you want to avoid those people as potentials. There is nothing wrong with that.


No. No, there really isn't any integrity in doing that. Got a family? Be honest with them. Got kids? They can handle "Mommy and Daddy aren't in love anymore" better than "...and one of us has hurt the other in order to see if we could all still live under the same roof. Be grateful!"

Never going to accept "for the children/family" as an excuse, sorry. And I'm never going to forgive the kind of person who does this to a family, because of what it did to mine.
In a perfect world this is the case. With divorce being the reason behind so many children feeling broken, many more of them are in therapy to deal with how it affected their relationships later than those who are seeking therapy because a parent sought TLC from another person and stayed married to their other parent anyway. I truly think some viewpoints are pie-in-the-sky and would be the IDEAL. If you want to live your life according to the ideal setup and are willing to wait until the ideal opportunity comes along, that is most certainly ok.

I still see these ideal candidates who are entirely transparent STILL not work in the end for other reasons. So it is no guarantee that transparency is going to translate into a happy ending for any parties involved.

I try not to judge whatever is going on in a primary, as I don't live in their home to know both sides of the story. I also would hope others wouldn't be judgmental towards those who appreciate what connections they can get that meet the mutual needs of 2 or more that are in the equation. Life is short and I try to plug into resources that have the most potential based on many aspects.

(Now this is regarding a couple of other posts above as I messed up the multiquote option, so forgive me for lumping it in)

The things mentioned about STD risks are very real risks indeed. They are things that must be thought about. Although I presumed some people are using condoms. Some people have no reproductive organs (like myself) and with condom use will not be at the same risk for some of these STDs. It in NO way exempts me from having that possibility for some things to be carried. But I believe I am in a slightly different risk category because I had a total hysterectomy (cervix and all).

And who knows, I might be exactly in majority viewpoint here before too long. The relationships I have taken on continuously morph my opinion about what I want to do and what makes my primary most content. With more experience and study under my belt I will likely change some of these views to benefit everyone in an optimum way.

My way of thinking about this is not traditional according to those who operate under the same label. To some, this means I am not poly at all. There are traditional opinions on many things and some will fall out of favor with those who follow that motto because they don't follow it also.

I just try to give another perspective as I always think there are more complexities to even the most simple of scenarios. It is just the way I think in general. The way my brain works. I am always open to hearing the other side. It helps me reevaluate my decisions. So whether or not I am in the majority here on this issue, I really appreciate reading the opinions of others about it. Gives me so much to think about!
__________________
Me: 32, bi, female, married 14 years to R.
R: 33, hetero male who is polyfriendly, NSA friendly under the right circumstances.
S: The child R and I have together.
Neither have found the partner(s) we would like to merge villages with. In the meantime we are exploring our collective sexuality to find a frequency that feels right.
Reply With Quote
  #178  
Old 05-24-2012, 10:27 PM
CielDuMatin's Avatar
CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 1,456
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrspolyamorous View Post
With divorce being the reason behind so many children feeling broken, many more of them are in therapy to deal with how it affected their relationships later than those who are seeking therapy because a parent sought TLC from another person and stayed married to their other parent anyway.
The sheer quantity of people doing something has absolutely no correlation with the severity of the issue, or the damage that it does. Sorry to be harsh, but that statement is an utter cop-out.

You want numbers? There may well be some very specific cases where having someone as a sex-surrogate is necessary and helps. Many, many more are just people who would rather fuck someone else than deal with the responsibilities that they chose to take on, through thick or thin, in sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer.

Again, if those are the types of people who are good relationship material for you, then more power to you. For me, trust and commitment are what I give and expect from a partner, whether short-term or long-term. Someone who is cheating has demonstrated that when it comes to both, they fall very, very short.
__________________
Please check out The Birdcage - an open, friendly Polyamory forum for all parts of New York State
http://www.thebirdcage.org/

"Listen, or your tongue will make you deaf." - Native American Proverb
Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 05-24-2012, 10:53 PM
mrspolyamorous's Avatar
mrspolyamorous mrspolyamorous is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
The sheer quantity of people doing something has absolutely no correlation with the severity of the issue, or the damage that it does. Sorry to be harsh, but that statement is an utter cop-out.


You want numbers? There may well be some very specific cases where having someone as a sex-surrogate is necessary and helps. Many, many more are just people who would rather fuck someone else than deal with the responsibilities that they chose to take on, through thick or thin, in sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer.

You couldn't be more correct about how many more are just wanting people to fuck rather than to deal with the responsibilities they have. I try to avoid those people as those I get involved with typically start off with no sex at all and sometimes fizzle out before they had a chance to go there. So they were looking for some emotional support first and foremost and they were open to my poly situation and felt inspired by it.

Some people also have spoken about both married partners doing their own thing and I am the first person they are choosing to do that with because we have a kindred connection that gives them something to work from and grow from. They just haven't shared all the details with their partner not because they are dishonest but because they want to see how things might pan about between us before they "bring me home to meet the parents". I might be that trial and error for them just as much as they are for me.


Again, if those are the types of people who are good relationship material for you, then more power to you. For me, trust and commitment are what I give and expect from a partner, whether short-term or long-term. Someone who is cheating has demonstrated that when it comes to both, they fall very, very short.
It's not something I want. I am just a live and let live kind of person.

I said I have many reasons as to why I would feel an emotional connection with someone. I base who I am attracted to on many variables. Some are not as big of a deal as others, but other things that aren't a big deal to you might be a deal breaker for me.

I can appreciate your feelings on the issue. To me, someone who doesn't mesh well with me and my husbands quirks in life (as we are both Asperger's) are people who automatically get excluded (which is a majority of people anyway) let alone how many more that removes from the table when you are looking for another couple. So there are big fish to fry left and right when living this lifestyle. I am not looking to move every potential in. I am not necessarily looking for sex. If that other person is only looking for sexual fulfillment and not something much deeper, well they aren't my type anyway.

I know several people who are in situations where they might enjoy a multi-faceted connection with me and my husband as an adventure and experience in their lives at a point when they need it the most. It might motivate them in ways they weren't able to be before.

Ultimately and ideally, I would have full disclosure. And several people I had hoped to get to know better were uncomfortable with the idea that I was married at all, even with transparency between my husband and I. They didn't like knowing that he knew. Those people who can't be OK with me being married (whether they are married or not) are people who exclude themselves too.

Statistically, it feels like the chances of success in poly relationships is so minimal already that adding any other complexities to the equation (sans marriage issues) just makes it that much less likely to be able to connect with people who might only be a chapter or two in my life story.

I am relatively new to the poly thing and I learn something new everytime I read a response. All backgrounds help me be a better poly person. But I've never been a traditionalist. I was held back in detrimental ways due to people holding fast and true to traditional guidelines placed on them from religion. I believe rigidity in thinking can certainly have a purpose and a place. I just think there has been a lot of judgment and assumptions made on what others should be doing in their marriage.

There are exceptions to all stereotypes. Believe it or not, I happen to rub shoulders with those exceptions all the time. People find me easy to talk to and open up about things. I ask a lot of questions. A lot that tells me whether or not they are looking to get their rocks off only. Whether or not they have sought this sort of thing before. Why? What does their spouse know? I have them answer the same questions in different ways to see if they are just making things up as they go. I could still be getting lied to. But I'd like to think I am not haphazardly going out and about doing whatever without considering what type of people they are and what they might be ultimately trying to accomplish.
__________________
Me: 32, bi, female, married 14 years to R.
R: 33, hetero male who is polyfriendly, NSA friendly under the right circumstances.
S: The child R and I have together.
Neither have found the partner(s) we would like to merge villages with. In the meantime we are exploring our collective sexuality to find a frequency that feels right.
Reply With Quote
  #180  
Old 05-25-2012, 12:14 AM
CielDuMatin's Avatar
CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 1,456
Default

Ugh, spare us from the One True Wayers. Those claiming that poly is somehow "more evolved than the slavery of monogamy". It's insulting to those who are quite happily making it work for themselves.
__________________
Please check out The Birdcage - an open, friendly Polyamory forum for all parts of New York State
http://www.thebirdcage.org/

"Listen, or your tongue will make you deaf." - Native American Proverb
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
affairs, agreements, casual sex, cheaters, cheating, cheating and poly, dadt policies, dating friends, dating issues, deceit, deception, dishonesty, drama, encouraging cheating, ethics, fuck buddies, fwb, honesty, meeting people, mono, mono / poly, mono-poly, mono/poly, monogamy, monogamy and polyamory, one true way, poly, poly vs. mono, poly vs. open, polyfidelity, sneaking around, std's, sti's, swingers, swinging

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:30 AM.