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  #111  
Old 04-11-2012, 04:35 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Originally Posted by Mudita View Post
Not sure about this.
Sounds like a good first step but unless there's a concerted effort to get to the bottom of why he feels like this it's just kicking the can down the road.
The boyfriend's feelings of insecurity are his own responsibility to dig at and break open. No one else can "get to the bottom of his feelings" for him. All Aurelie can do is keep her word, love him, and encourage him to keep dealing with it. After two long posts Aurelie made about how they spent a long weekend baring their souls to each other, renegotiating agreements, and setting boundaries for moving forward, you neglect to see that they are doing exactly what needs to be done? Do you actually think they're not making a concerted effort to make the relationship work for both of them? Re-read those posts, you must be letting something color your perceptions.

Aurelie, I think it is all quite encouraging and you took huge, important steps. Of course, there's always work to do but don't feel you haven't done enough yet. Being willing to have difficult, frank communication is key and you met that head on.
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  #112  
Old 04-11-2012, 06:09 AM
Mudita Mudita is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
The boyfriend's feelings of insecurity are his own responsibility to dig at and break open. No one else can "get to the bottom of his feelings" for him.
I agree hence my comment

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Originally Posted by Mudita View Post
But ultimately you can only do so much - he's got to want to.

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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
All Aurelie can do is keep her word, love him, and encourage him to keep dealing with it.

In addition she can also help him to identify a process which will help him understand and deal it. This is pretty much the entire point of what I've been banging on about.

Love and encouragement for someone trying to fix a car is great. But a good book or course on mechanics will likely go a long way too.

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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
After two long posts Aurelie made about how they spent a long weekend baring their souls to each other, renegotiating agreements, and setting boundaries for moving forward, you neglect to see that they are doing exactly what needs to be done? Do you actually think they're not making a concerted effort to make the relationship work for both of them?
I think they are making a concerted agreement to make this relationship work for them.
They have communicated how they currently feel which is a huge first step.
My concern is that renegotiating agreements, and setting boundaries is treating the symptoms and not the cause of the jealousy. Thus it alleviates the pain somewhat but will not eliminate it which will bite them in the ass in the long run.


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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Re-read those posts, you must be letting something color your perceptions.
Inevitably. Such is the human condition.
I encourage you to re-read my posts in light of this one.


Aurelie,
Please understand that I'm not having a go at you.
I think you're doing a standup job here, I really do.
If something is colouring my perceptions it is my experience that trying to repress or mitigate negative emotions is a losing battle. If I have found any peace it is by attempting to eliminate them root and branch.
But that is me and I do not pretend to suggest that this is necessarily the way forward for you and your boyfriend.
At the same time your description of some of the ways he is acting is all too familiar.
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  #113  
Old 04-11-2012, 10:15 PM
Aurelie26 Aurelie26 is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Aurelie, I am so happy for you.

Honest communication + love + compassion works wonders!

That being said, it doesn't mean he won't ever feel insecure again, or that no one will make mistakes, but you've taken huge steps toward working things out and deepening your relationship. It's great that he wants you to teach him things to do with you sexually that he's never tried before. I think that, as long as you treat that as something of a loving adventure, it will make things between you 1000 times even more wonderful! I agree that you should wait a bit before introducing the two of them to each other - even a few months, if need be. I would wait for your boyfriend to settle into this newer, more secure place with you, and for his confidence level to rise, before adding another element that might throw him off.

Good job, hon.
Thanks nycindie, I think we have taken a big step this weekend, it feels like a lot of tension has been let loose, and at the moment I could not be happier, and we are going to enjoy that feeling for now.

I was so touched that he has asked me to teach him stuff that turns me on, it's so sweet. I have learnt that I need to stop assuming that he wouldn't like certain things, when he might. What I thought was him not liking something, was actually him just not having confidence and being a bit shy about it. I think he just needs more encouragement at times, and I will make sure I give it to him. It has worked the last few nights.

We have agreed that we are going to talk more about what we are feeling and not keep things bottled up just because we dont want to fight.

As you say, it doesn't mean he will stop feeling insecure, just because we have had this chat, it doesn't mean that our problems are over, it's only a start, but it's a good one.
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  #114  
Old 04-11-2012, 10:28 PM
Aurelie26 Aurelie26 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mudita View Post
I struggled with this for years. I'll tell you my experience but of course YMMV.

There was a number of emotions at play.
- Jealousy: my lover would leave me for him
- Ego: I wanted to be able to make my lover feel this way.
- Envy: I wanted her to be doing this with me.
- Arousal: for me seeing a woman highly aroused is perhaps my greatest pleasure in sex. The idea of my lover being intensely aroused turned me on.

The problem is it's difficult to separate these emotions and so you end up feeling like crap and yet being very turned on at the same time.
This is very confusing.

Address these feelings individually and you may just be left with him being turned on if you're lucky.

To do this he needs to examine his emotions in a fairly fine grained way which is where it will help if he has some sort of process to do this as per my previous post.

That he's able to admit it, to himself and to you, seems like a very promising sign.
Thanks, it's nice to get advice from a mans perspective.

He was very bashful when he admitted that the thought of me with another man turned him on, he just kind of blurted it out quickly. I would never have believed it, again I need to encourage him to tell me these things and also to listen more.
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  #115  
Old 04-11-2012, 10:58 PM
Aurelie26 Aurelie26 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mudita View Post
Sounds like a grueling but worthwhile weekend. Huge respect for facing this and being so caring and honest with your bf.

Couple of observations from inside the male jealous brain.

- This will be very hard for him to deal with. Dealing with issues like this is not something we get any instruction in unless one has particularly self-aware parents. It's like giving a complex maths problem to somebody who never studied maths at school. Some people will eventually work it out by themselves. Many will not or it will happen too late. Help him find a way to work it out.
i.e.
- might be a good to start with this and work throught it with him - http://www.xeromag.com/practicaljealousy.pdf
- therapy
- meditation
- maybe none of the above works for your bf but try and find a way.


If he doesn't work through it the danger is he will find a way to deal with it that still causes him plenty of pain but not enough to leave you.

Think of it like a stone in your shoe. If it's too sore you just can't ignore it anymore and you have to stop. But it can be not that sore and still cause you enough pain to be forced to limp along.

Help him find a way to take the stone out of his shoe and it will be one of the most wonderful things you can do for him.


But ultimately you can only do so much - he's got to want to.
I think it will be hard, but he has admitted to me that his jealousy is there, I dont yet know how deep rooted that jealousy is, but we are going to do everything we can to work on it.

What we do know is how much we love each other, and he is at least secure in the knowledge that if things become to difficult for him to cope with he can tell me, and I will end things with my lover. He knows that he comes first, which is good. This isn't fair on my lover, but what can I do? I cannot see a future without my boyfriend.

I'm going to make sure that from now on we have regular talks about it. The first one was very difficult and I'm so glad that we got someone to take Max out. We have spoken a few times since, he wants to talk about it, and now I do as well. It will get easier, I want him to know that we can discuss anything at anytime, and also to be honest with our feelings.

Thanks for the link.
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  #116  
Old 04-11-2012, 11:36 PM
darthfrog darthfrog is offline
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Well obviously no-one else here apart from you actually knows the guy but it really seems to me from what you have posted that he wants to be monogamous and that is what would make him happy.

Yes he is consenting to this situation of you sleeping with someone else, but my whole point before was that due to the fact that he is in love with you and does not want to lose you/is a nice guy and wants to make you happy, that the consent is not really worth that much. If he loved you less he would leave you. And just because he loves you enough to stick around doesn't mean he doesnt feel shit inside.

And to the two people that have suggested that I have a problem with Aurelie because she enjoys sex you are wrong. Nowhere have I said I would have a problem with her enjoying all the sex that she wants if her sex life didn't centrally revolve around a romantic relationship with a unbalanced to the point of exploitative power dynamic.

<---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Polyamory is something for equal partners to participate in together and to pursue because its what they want and enjoy, not something that someone has to suffer and accept because they are in love with someone who won't stop sleeping with someone else.

Honestly if the most important thing for you is your boyfriend it would be prudent to break up with your lover, because I don't see this situation being sutainable, the longer this situation carries on probably the more the resentment/pain will build up under the surface. If your not that fussed about him stick with the lover, dump the bf to be kind and find some people to be poly with that aren't reluctant and suffering for it.
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  #117  
Old 04-12-2012, 12:32 AM
Mudita Mudita is offline
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Originally Posted by darthfrog View Post
just because he loves you enough to stick around doesn't mean he doesnt feel shit inside.
I tend to agree with this

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Originally Posted by darthfrog View Post
I don't see this situation being sutainable, the longer this situation carries on probably the more the resentment/pain will build up under the surface.
and this assuming the bf makes no efforts to resolve his jealousy issues




however not this
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfrog View Post
it would be prudent to break up with your lover...
or this
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Originally Posted by darthfrog View Post
If your not that fussed about him stick with the lover, dump the bf to be kind
People can change if they want to. If the boyfriend is able to work through his jealousy issues there is no reason they can't be happy together, and who knows, maybe he will come around to the idea of being poly himself.

The "dump the bf to be kind" seems to be very patronising to the boyfriend.

All relationships take work, poly or otherwise.
Dumping and moving on is the easy way out.
Aurelie seems to be choosing to stay and fight to make the relationships she values work for _ALL_ parties and deserves credit for this.

Last edited by Mudita; 04-12-2012 at 12:42 AM.
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  #118  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:25 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Originally Posted by darthfrog View Post
Polyamory is something for equal partners to participate in together and to pursue because its what they want and enjoy, not something that someone has to suffer and accept because they are in love with someone who won't stop sleeping with someone else.
Yes, but there are usually learning curves and dealing with unexpected emotions for everyone. Rarely does any couple just say, "Okay, let's jump in" and then each of them instantaneously has the same facility to process issues, the same levels of understanding, and equal acceptance of it all, and at the same pace as their partner. Even in monogamous relationships, two people sort of leap-frog in their progress when dealing with new challenges. No one expects both people to click into place simultaneously and equally, when there is a huge change in the dynamic of a relationship. In Aurelie's situation, she was seeing her lover first, and the boyfriend knew this and knowingly accepted it, even though he had issues with it. No one forced her boyfriend to accept it. I understand this to mean that he recognized the potential for deep love and satisfaction with her, even considering anything that would be painful or uncomfortable in order to have that.

I am usually always the one who will point out to people that poly is consensual and should not be forced on anyone. However, I also have come to learn that many people consent to poly knowing full well it will be a difficult challenge and something that will bring up all sorts of demons to face, yet they say it is the trial by fire that they are willing to accept because the relationship and the person they love is worth it. Each person in a relationship is responsible for their own investment in it.

Whenever someone has ever said to me, "You deserve better" or "this isn't fair to you" I always tell them, "I'll be the one to decide that." I've had relationships end because the other person thought they were doing me a favor. No! Believe me, it felt worse than anything because I wasn't given the chance to process the challenges I was willing to face on my own terms, and the choice to end it was not reached mutually. If I tell someone, "I'm in this no matter what," don't insult me by not believing I am strong enough and don't walk on eggshells around me.
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Last edited by nycindie; 04-12-2012 at 01:55 AM.
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  #119  
Old 04-12-2012, 01:34 AM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Ok darthfrog, if your concern has nothing to do with sex, then lets reframe this using a different issue but a similar set of dynamics in terms of one person hurting because of another's activities.

Let's say my partner is in the military and has to be away regularly because of it. He was in the military when I met him, I knew this about him. Yet it's hard for me because I'm a pacifist and would never be in the military myself, plus I miss him when he's gone, I'm responsible for the kid when he's not there, I wonder if he likes the danger more than our stable, predictable home life.

He asks if I want him to quit the military, and says he will if I need him to but that it would hurt him to do so. We have long talks about it. I decide that I love him enough to stay with him AND not to ask him to give up this important part of his life. We set agreements, like him calling me every night when he's away, to make it easier. I work on being less fearful.

Am I being exploited? Is my consent to being in the relationship not genuine? Should my partner break up with me for my own good?
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  #120  
Old 04-12-2012, 06:22 PM
Aurelie26 Aurelie26 is offline
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Originally Posted by darthfrog View Post
Well obviously no-one else here apart from you actually knows the guy but it really seems to me from what you have posted that he wants to be monogamous and that is what would make him happy.

Yes he is consenting to this situation of you sleeping with someone else, but my whole point before was that due to the fact that he is in love with you and does not want to lose you/is a nice guy and wants to make you happy, that the consent is not really worth that much. If he loved you less he would leave you. And just because he loves you enough to stick around doesn't mean he doesnt feel shit inside.

And to the two people that have suggested that I have a problem with Aurelie because she enjoys sex you are wrong. Nowhere have I said I would have a problem with her enjoying all the sex that she wants if her sex life didn't centrally revolve around a romantic relationship with a unbalanced to the point of exploitative power dynamic.

<---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Polyamory is something for equal partners to participate in together and to pursue because its what they want and enjoy, not something that someone has to suffer and accept because they are in love with someone who won't stop sleeping with someone else.

Honestly if the most important thing for you is your boyfriend it would be prudent to break up with your lover, because I don't see this situation being sutainable, the longer this situation carries on probably the more the resentment/pain will build up under the surface. If your not that fussed about him stick with the lover, dump the bf to be kind and find some people to be poly with that aren't reluctant and suffering for it.
Have you read my posts? Yes he is consenting to me being with my lover, he knew from the start, he didn't have to start a relationship with me. You say he loves me so much he is willing to suffer and accept the situation, no he doesn't, he knows that he only has to tell me that he is no longer happy with the situation and I will give up my relationship with my lover if he wants. I asked him this at the weekend. He said that he does not.

I love him enough to do that for him, and he loves me enough so that I dont have to. Not yet anyway.

We are equal partners, he just wants to be mono, and I respect that now. I have read lots of posts on here about peoples poly relationships, and what I notice is that it doesn't always work, does that mean that they have to give up one of their relationships without trying to make things better. My bf and I are trying to make things better for us all. He is jealous at the moment, thats why he has been saying these things, we can make it o.k, and he wants to try and do that. He knows how important he is to us.

He comes first, his feelings come first, but I have feelings also, as does my lover.

I am not a terrible person as you suggest, far from it, my bf is a beautiful person and although my lover can at times be an asshole, he comes through when you need him to, he has for me on lots of occasions and is a good man men it comes down to it.

Also, you say "Find some people to be poly with that aren't reluctant and suffering for it." I dont think you understand. I dont want a poly relationship for the sake of it, I want it with my two men, the two men that I love, not just any old men, I want them, and them only.

You advise me to "If your not that fussed about him stick with the lover, dump the bf to be kind." Again you dont understand.

I will never leave my boyfriend, never, not for my lover or anyone else. I dont believe that he will ever leave me either, we love each other more than anyone knows. We will work this out, we have done a good job at the weekend, it wasn't easy, but we have made a good start.

I will leave it to my bf to tell me when I should think about giving my lover up. He does not want that at the moment, and I'm grateful for his support, he does not think I'm a terrible person like you do.
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