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  #91  
Old 01-20-2012, 09:41 PM
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thanks for reading and replying, NovemberRain. its nice to hear from you!

last night i had a really intense playdate with K, i am feeling so charged by my intense attraction to her and the physicality of our connection. i have found it hard to broach the topic of "what is happening" between us and there are a lot of questions i have for her that i somehow haven't found the courage to ask, like does she consider herself poly? what is her relationship history? and even, is she dating other people at the moment? seems like such basic information that we would have sorted out before we got involved, but i think we are both so afraid of seeming "processy" and wanting to be light and fluid with each other that we are probably avoiding some important topics.

alex and i are staying in touch while she is away via text and exchanging voicemails, and talking on the phone when possible. its hard because i know she feels extra sensitive when she is not able to reach me, like late last night when i was with K. i sent her some cute pics early this morning of me in bed snuggling with our dog so she would know i slept at home and was thinking of her. i am totally blown away by her ability to "give me this" with K. so totally appreciative.

so far alex does not have an interest in getting to know K. she seems to understand how it could potentially be helpful, but has concerns that she will come off as an overprotective spouse. i do wonder about alex's emotionality and how that could potentially get triggered in an interaction between them. i wonder if it might help to wait until things are feeling a little more familiar with K, and maybe even having the NRE wear off a little first.

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The fact that I have them both allows me to overlook perceived 'flaws' in the other. They complement each other so well.
this is really interesting to me too...the ways that K and alex are so different in many ways and how that has been enhancing my life so much. K has this very tough, kind of rough-around-the-edges appeal even though she is more feminine in her presentation and is more sexually receptive than alex. alex is so sensitive and needs so much from me emotionally that it feels like a nice break to be with K, where we just chat and have fun and have wild passionate sex. obviously the two relationships are not at all comparable, given that i've been with alex for 5+ years and K and i are so new to each other. what a gift though to have an outlet, a bit of an escape even, from the pressures of marriage and the inevitable changes that happen in long-term relationships around intimacy and sexuality, but also have that stability and sense of home and family to rely on.
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  #92  
Old 01-24-2012, 07:27 PM
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so i know i saw this coming in many ways. totally predictable, i suppose. but i am IN IT with K. i have totally chosen this in some ways, by spending so much time with her while alex is away. physically i am just melting into her. we spent all of sunday in her bed, only getting dressed to answer the door for food delivery. completely heavenly.

i am so taken by her that i do feel a little scared. its too easy for me to go to this place of judging, comparing, worrying about how good this feels, wondering if i am an NRE addict or something since i had it pretty bad for sam too. this is only my second ongoing sexual relationship since alex and i opened up our relationship last summer, so i still feel so new and inexperienced with this, trying to keep it all in perspective.

i do feel like i am falling in love with K, but there are so many ways to define that. its been a month since we started seeing each other, so by some definitions there is no way we could know each other well enough for it to be love, it has to be NRE, of course. the sex is AMAYYZING, i am so into her physically, last night she made me scream and it felt really emotionally intense. i hope i didn't scare her with how intense i was feeling. but even besides the sex, i love hearing her talk, love hearing her stories, i am completely inspired by how creative and artistic she is.

it is hard to know how much to say to alex. she says she likes to be in the loop and wants to know what is going on with me, but she also says she appreicates that i practice "loving-kindness" in my communication with her as opposed to "radical honesty". so its hard to know sometimes what is considered "withholding information" as opposed to being gentle in my communication. do i need to tell alex i feel like i might be falling in love with K when it might just be NRE and is too soon to know what is going to happen?

alex has been reading tristan taormino's book "opening up" and it has been really helpful. she has been a lot more patient with me and able to ask directly for what she needs in terms of reassurance and information and such.

my best friend said to me the other day "i am not sure what you are doing being married." i don't know how much that has to do with her not really getting the poly stuff or if maybe she onto the same thing that others on this forum have suggested. i don't always know what i am doing being married, but i guess all will be revealed in time.
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  #93  
Old 02-01-2012, 09:01 PM
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i'm not really sure why i continue to be compelled to post on this blog, as i feel like my story is sort of boring and old hat compared to some of the others on this forum. not that it matters, because i suppose it is giving me an opportunity to reflect and perhaps offer my experience as something that someone else might be able to learn something from someday. still though, i wonder why i am writing here instead of just journaling about it.

alex has been quite emotional lately even though she has also been very open and inviting me to talk about my feelings for K. we have been doing pretty well with holding everything that is going on, but it has been very emotional for both of us. mostly i just want more freedom and alex wants more of my time and energy. it is a hard balance to strike. i have been doing everything i can to reassure her and pay her as much attention as i can, making sure to make extra time for her and make special plans for us to have quality time together.

it is hard to balance all the feelings and energy that comes with the NRE with the intensity and sometimes heaviness that comes with transitioning an existing mono relationship into a poly one. i find myself fantasizing about leaving again even though we are getting better about being able to work through our communication issues and alex has been able to get comfortable with me having more and more freedom to do what i want and make requests that she was previously uncomfortable with, like me sleeping over at K's occasionally.

i suppose my fantasies about leaving still have to do with just wanting to do whatever i want without having to be accountable or restrict myself to preserve someone else's feelings, but maybe that is just me needing to learn how to strike this balance and manage my NRE better. i am still so new at this, and the energy with K has all the classic NRE symptoms: adrenaline surges, distracting thoughts, high sexual energy, junkie-like cravings. i miss her constantly, and i am distracted by thoughts of her when i am with alex.

i find myself "going through the motions" with alex in terms of sex, even kissing, although we have always been easily affectionate when it comes to cuddling and such and that part hasn't changed. she talks about fears of being the "cuddly, dependable teddy bear" instead of someone exciting and sexy to me and i fear she is kind of right. i think it could help me if she got a crush on someone else, but she says she is still not ready for that and might not ever be. she may just be wired for monogamy and that's okay, but sometimes it does feel like a lot of pressure on me.
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  #94  
Old 02-02-2012, 04:10 AM
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i'm not really sure why i continue to be compelled to post on this blog, as i feel like my story is sort of boring and old hat compared to some of the others on this forum.
Please keep posting, I'm enjoying your story.
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  #95  
Old 02-02-2012, 10:16 AM
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^Agreed. I started to write the following, and I see that the situation you have with Alex is a lot like the one I had with my husband Alec (hah ) for a long time. I managed to initiate change, and we lived through the changes to this point, where both of us are more independent and more satisfied. Just that I notice that the text will be long, and I am sorry if you feel like it's too much, or too coloured by my own experience. I want to share what I feel can help you, but if you wish me to shut up in your journal, please tell me so.

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mostly i just want more freedom and alex wants more of my time and energy. it is a hard balance to strike.
Hmm, I see a dynamic here, one where it is always you who wants more freedom, and it is always Alex who wants more from you. I wonder if there was any way to break free from that dynamic.

Obviously, breaking up will do that for you, but that's sort of an easy way out (even though it's hard!). I think falling into a dynamic that isn't really working for either, that is a compromise for both of you and not in a good way, is not uncommon. It can be hard to change the dynamic, so hard that in the end, when resentment has built enough, people see no way out but ending the whole relationship. Yet, the reason neither of the persons initiated change was because they were afraid that the relationship wouldn't survive. Do you see my point?

The dynamic you have. Right now you do have an incompability. You are in a situation where you feel the most pressing need for freedom, indepencence, and lack of restrictions. It seems from that perspective like Alex and her needs are standing in the way of that, but we don't know why she needs what she needs (or, well, I don't know, you may have some idea, and Alex may have some idea or know, but it may be unclear to her as well). It may be that Alex wants a partner who is there for her a lot more than you can provide. But it may also be that the reason she needs much from you is because she is afraid of something; of loosing you, or of grabbing her own independence, or looking at what she wants and finding out that even if she feels like she needs a relationship with you she doesn't want one (e.g. because of the whole poly thing).

And really, Alex isn't standing in the way of anything. You are restraining yourself because you are afraid and maybe you think that is what relationships are about. (And, often, it is how relationships work, but it's not always something that brings happiness.) You need to figure out your own needs in terms of independence, and you need to make boundaries. That links in with this:

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i find myself "going through the motions" with alex in terms of sex, even kissing, although we have always been easily affectionate when it comes to cuddling and such and that part hasn't changed.
Going through the motions isn't good. But that is excactly one of the problems when you don't have proper boundaries for yourself: you can't truly enjoy other person's company and be present. It is very likely that there are good aspects to your relationship with Alex, and there are things you appreciate about her, and you do want to spend time and cuddle and be affectionate with her. But it is just not possible to see all that when you are too close. You aren't able to miss her if you feel you are spending so much time together that it's suffocating you. You can't enjoy touch if it's there even when you don't want to be touched. Do you agree? This is one of the reasons why it is actually better for Alex, too, when you do make your boundaries. She may resist them, because people easily resist change, and fear what it may lead to. But the position she is in now isn't really fair to her, is it? That she is this annoyance and hindrance between you and all you want, and your relationship with her feels like a duty rather than something you want. When really you would very likely actually want it, if only you would reject the idea that Alex is entitled to your time, and take the space and time you need for yourself.

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i think it could help me if she got a crush on someone else, but she says she is still not ready for that and might not ever be. she may just be wired for monogamy and that's okay, but sometimes it does feel like a lot of pressure on me.
And you do see that Alex finding another partner is another easy way out of the compromise situation where you are, just like breaking up is? The hard way out is for you to figure out what level of independence you need for yourself, making boundaries around that, expressing them to Alex, and then living by them while waiting patiently to see her response: if she will try to pressure you to give in (which may happen but you need to resist in order to hold onto your boundaries), if she will be unhappy and break up with you, or if she can, with time, find ways to happiness in the new situation/dynamic.

Now, I do think the whole NRE stuff is going to complicate things, and that is unfortunate. I think you should put the other relationship aside in your thoughts when you are figuring this out: what level of independence do you want, in general? I doubt it would be healthy for you to state "I want time and space for myself" and then spend all your time with K (as you seem to realise yourself, when you talk about the possibility of being single, that even if you had all the freedom to be with K 24/7 it wouldn't actually be good for you). Maybe you could start by making boundaries around the NRE thing: not the ones that are needed by Alex, but ones that you think are needed for your own benefit. Maybe, if Alex is away from home, your reaction shouldn't be to run to K but to be alone and do your own thing?

Do you think it is possible for you to stay where you are and work on this? Do you think it would be better for you to distance yourself from the situation? What if you moved out, to your own apartment, and focused on yourself? Is that a scary thought, moving out? How do you think Alex would react to that proposal? The scarier it feels, the more necessary it probably is, because the harder it is for you to make changes when you're living with Alex.

This is an example: how do you feel about the idea that you would move out and get your own apartment. This would be agreed for a set period of time, say, 4 months, and then revisited. During this time, you would make a boundary with yourself and commit to it, that you will only meet with K once a week (max. 24 hours at a time). You would also express this to Alex, as something you have decided, not as something she is making you do. You also agree with Alex to meet two times a week, once to work on your relationship with all the heavy talking and processing and feelings and stuff, and once to spend time together relaxing and cuddling and enjoying each other's company, trying to focus on that. The rest of the time is for yourself, for your own, independent life, not connected to your romantic/sexual partners. You can take time for friends and hobbies, but you should also take time for yourself.

How do you feel about that example? Do you see that there are aspects there that would be helpful? Feel free to modify. [Sorry to write a novel! I'm writing because I want to help, but it also helps me to process my own thoughts around these things, that's why it's long.]
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  #96  
Old 02-03-2012, 09:16 PM
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Please keep posting, I'm enjoying your story.
Thank you, bassman. I didn't know it when I wrote that but I guess I was curious if anyone was reading!
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  #97  
Old 02-03-2012, 09:53 PM
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And really, Alex isn't standing in the way of anything. You are restraining yourself because you are afraid and maybe you think that is what relationships are about. (And, often, it is how relationships work, but it's not always something that brings happiness.) You need to figure out your own needs in terms of independence, and you need to make boundaries.
This is so true and helpful and something I really feel like I am working hard with right now. Learning how to tap into my own inner sense of what it is I need and want and communicating that. There is a lot of guilt overlaying my feelings and actions right now, and as you suggest I need to keep letting go of that and let Alex have her reactions and do what she needs to do to take care of herself. I think part of what's hard for me is this concept of "going at the pace of the one who is struggling most", where the idea that if Alex states some boundaries she has, let's use sleeping over at K's house as an example, and I push back on that and say "actually i really would like to sleep over at K's house and I want the freedom to make that decision for myself" is that me being selfish and pushing her too quickly? i have said that and she has agreed to relax that boundary, but she also has been crying a lot and grieving the loss of what she thought this relationship was going to look like when we had our commitment ceremony. its hard for me to see her so sad, and I have been practicing not trying to "fix" anything but just let her have her feelings.


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You aren't able to miss her if you feel you are spending so much time together that it's suffocating you. You can't enjoy touch if it's there even when you don't want to be touched. Do you agree? This is one of the reasons why it is actually better for Alex, too, when you do make your boundaries. She may resist them, because people easily resist change, and fear what it may lead to. But the position she is in now isn't really fair to her, is it? That she is this annoyance and hindrance between you and all you want, and your relationship with her feels like a duty rather than something you want. When really you would very likely actually want it, if only you would reject the idea that Alex is entitled to your time, and take the space and time you need for yourself.
It is true, I have been operating from the perspective that Alex is entitled to my time. She asks for things and I feel like I have to give them to her in order to keep her happy and also to get the freedom I want. This is a terrible dynamic. I do romantic things for her because she asks me to, and I do them hoping that that will be enough to keep her happy and reassured for awhile. I do feel genuine appreciation for how hard she has been working on herself and her issues with anger, and I authentically tell her that often. But I see that we are in an unhealthy dynamic where I am somehow set up to have the power to dole out reassurances and time and energy and she is left asking for whatever she can get. She is learning to take care of herself but she still looks to me too often to get what she thinks she needs.

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And you do see that Alex finding another partner is another easy way out of the compromise situation where you are, just like breaking up is? The hard way out is for you to figure out what level of independence you need for yourself, making boundaries around that, expressing them to Alex, and then living by them while waiting patiently to see her response: if she will try to pressure you to give in (which may happen but you need to resist in order to hold onto your boundaries), if she will be unhappy and break up with you, or if she can, with time, find ways to happiness in the new situation/dynamic.
YES! This really resonates with me. I have been trying to work through the (nearly constant) impulse to leave, because I know in many ways it would be the easy thing to do. For the first time ever, yesterday she mentioned us breaking up as her idea, and I actually felt a sense of relief. Maybe that is ultimately what may happen, but I do see that there is something to be worked through here even if that does happen in the future. Like its not time yet, and if we were to just wash our hands of the whole thing without actually struggling thorugh the place where I get to explore and express my boundaries and individuality and she gets to sit with that and decide how she wants to react, we will have missed a growth opportunity here. And this unhealthy dynamic would probably come back to play out again in future relationships.

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Now, I do think the whole NRE stuff is going to complicate things, and that is unfortunate. I think you should put the other relationship aside in your thoughts when you are figuring this out: what level of independence do you want, in general? I doubt it would be healthy for you to state "I want time and space for myself" and then spend all your time with K (as you seem to realise yourself, when you talk about the possibility of being single, that even if you had all the freedom to be with K 24/7 it wouldn't actually be good for you). Maybe you could start by making boundaries around the NRE thing: not the ones that are needed by Alex, but ones that you think are needed for your own benefit. Maybe, if Alex is away from home, your reaction shouldn't be to run to K but to be alone and do your own thing?
You are right, the NRE thing does complicate things and challenges me to also hold my boundaries with K. Fortunately I am doing a lot of intensive spiritual work right now that helps to reinforce the idea that I really need a lot of time to myself, to integrate what is going on with me and what I am learning. I cannot do that if I am having sex with K 24/7. Which is extremely tempting, but she's older than me and needs more breaks from that level of physical exertion anyway. I have begun to see that NRE is hard for me, I tend to get really drawn into it and have a hard time holding boundaries as I do in other parts of my life as well. I act somewhat complusively at times, responding like a junkie to that addictive quality that NRE can take on. I am trying to become more aware of that. My spiritual teacher gave me some good advice that resonated with me about this, she said that when this intense energy comes up I need to learn how to internalize it, save some of it for myself instead of giving it all away. Keep it, sit with it, reabsorb it back into my body, and then when I do go to act on it or give it away to K or whoever, it will comes from a higher place and not a place of need or impulse. I suppose that is what other people here have said, but for some reason the concept of "internalizing" it rather than rushing to give it all away really struck a cord with me.

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Originally Posted by rory View Post
Do you think it is possible for you to stay where you are and work on this? Do you think it would be better for you to distance yourself from the situation? What if you moved out, to your own apartment, and focused on yourself? Is that a scary thought, moving out? How do you think Alex would react to that proposal? The scarier it feels, the more necessary it probably is, because the harder it is for you to make changes when you're living with Alex.

This is an example: how do you feel about the idea that you would move out and get your own apartment. This would be agreed for a set period of time, say, 4 months, and then revisited. During this time, you would make a boundary with yourself and commit to it, that you will only meet with K once a week (max. 24 hours at a time). You would also express this to Alex, as something you have decided, not as something she is making you do. You also agree with Alex to meet two times a week, once to work on your relationship with all the heavy talking and processing and feelings and stuff, and once to spend time together relaxing and cuddling and enjoying each other's company, trying to focus on that. The rest of the time is for yourself, for your own, independent life, not connected to your romantic/sexual partners. You can take time for friends and hobbies, but you should also take time for yourself.
Alex and I have talked quite a few times about the possiblity of a "trial separation". This idea is very scary to Alex but not to me. She reacts strongly when I bring this up, and has started to feel like it is a threat that I use when I am not getting what I want. I do think that this would be helpful in terms of me learning how to set and stick to my own boundaries, but I have not yet figured out how to implement this kind of solution. I know it is just a matter of doing it, that the logistics and money and emotions and everything else would just work themselves out as they were meant to, so I don't fully understand why I am so paralyzed in terms of taking this action. I feel relief when I think about it, not fear. The only thing that feels like a block about it to me is Alex's reaction. I suppose that is what "codependence" is, doing things to protect someone else rather than what is right for you.

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Originally Posted by rory View Post
[Sorry to write a novel! I'm writing because I want to help, but it also helps me to process my own thoughts around these things, that's why it's long.]
Thank you so much for your feedback. I went and read a bit about your situation and was shocked to read that you are so young. You seem wise beyond your years! I really appreciate reading your thoughts.
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  #98  
Old 02-04-2012, 08:42 PM
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Thank you, bassman. I didn't know it when I wrote that but I guess I was curious if anyone was reading!
Haha...you've had 5,656 views as of today....I think people are reading!!
Keep it up!!
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:55 PM
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Alex and I have talked quite a few times about the possiblity of a "trial separation". This idea is very scary to Alex but not to me. She reacts strongly when I bring this up, and has started to feel like it is a threat that I use when I am not getting what I want. I do think that this would be helpful in terms of me learning how to set and stick to my own boundaries, but I have not yet figured out how to implement this kind of solution. I know it is just a matter of doing it, that the logistics and money and emotions and everything else would just work themselves out as they were meant to, so I don't fully understand why I am so paralyzed in terms of taking this action. I feel relief when I think about it, not fear. The only thing that feels like a block about it to me is Alex's reaction.
That feeling of being paralyzed is just your fears around asserting yourself. You deserve to ask for what you want - who will advocate for your needs, if not you?

If I were you, and you still want a trial separation, make sure you don't bring it up in the heat of an argument or fight. I would wait for a situation where you're both relaxed and comfortable, and you talk to her in a matter-of-fact, even, calm tone. Make sure she knows that you feel being on your own for a while would do wonders for your sense of self and matters of esteem and boundaries, and that it's not (mostly) about getting away from her. If she flies into a rage or breaks down in sobs, don't let yourself get sucked into her drama. You might have to psychically take a step back, and create a little barrier around you to see her more objectively and stay strong within yourself, but sometimes that is the only way to do it.
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  #100  
Old 02-05-2012, 09:23 PM
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I'm reluctant to chime in since I haven't commented on this before, but I'm going to anyway

You have the right to have what you want. I know things with Alex have been strained. Right now I don't think you're being very fair to her. I was impressed with how after you stuck it out over the holidays, she tried hard to be able to relax boundaries, etc.

I think for all the first months of this, you were focusing on letting her know that relationships with and dating others did not mean she was less important to you, and that she was your priority.

It seems now like that she's struggled and worked to do her best to accept what is for her a difficult situation, you have checked out because of NRE with K. It could seem like maybe you were waiting for somebody better to come along that could be your primary before you took the step of actually getting around to separate from Alex (since it didn't work out with Sam) and now you're so focused on how amazing K is that you don't feel any desire to work on your relationship with Alex.

I think it might be really wise to talk to K about all these feelings and questions you wonder about that you're reluctant to talk about because you want to keep it light and easy. I think that could really help place the NRE in perspective. I don't know if you have finally broached the subjects such as - is she poly, is she dating other people, etc yet, but I suggest you discuss those things.

I don't know if that's similar to your fear of being honest with Alex about your feelings earlier with Sam (sex ok, dating not, so you didn't broach that you had feelings for Sam) and now having trouble being 100% honest with both Alex and K about what you want and feel because you don't want to rock the boat and talk about the hard stuff.

Anyway, I wrote more than I meant to. Basically I just wanted to suggest that Alex is deserving to be happy too. If you aren't even interested in being happy with her, drawing this out isn't really fair to anybody. She has been difficult surely, but I do think that you presented her with a LOT - the situation with Sam, then wanting to go out with an acquaintance and playing with that couple you are friends with, then this AMAZING best ever relationship with K. (That getting pissed off when you came home from a date without showering...yes it IS reasonable that you be able to manage that boundary, I would've taken that as passive aggressive myself) Always possible she sensed that you were being less than honest about your feelings and that made some of her behavior even worse because she was so afraid.

Oh look I got lost in my summary again...where was I...do what will be kindest for both of you. Be honest with her about where you stand.
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