My Journey from agnostic - atheist

[BrigidsDaughter]

actually, dogma has nothing to do with my beliefs. I have actually had personal and profound spiritual experiences that have solidified my belief in God. Perhaps your wife has as well?

[bassman]

Originally Posted by BrigidsDaughter

actually, dogma has nothing to do with my beliefs. I have actually had personal and profound spiritual experiences that have solidified my belief in God. Perhaps your wife has as well?

Ok, well Ive not asked, but I dont think she has.

I dont mind the belief in whatever spritual whats-it, what I cant understand is how the pastor and congregation have her wrapped around their little finger, and what might be best for me, our little boy, and our future is the least of their concern. But what they say is "just right", and it seems to me she just follows them and wants to impress them, so their advice comes first. My opinion, desires, are "secondary" . I am beginning to understand what the secondary card means, now, I'm sure I could come up with a similar card for being a secondary in a marriage, church being the primary, lol!

[bassman]

Originally Posted by Quath

Unfortunately, that may be the case. If I ask the question, "Is there any evidence that would cause you to doubt your beliefs," then most of the time I get a "no" answer. At that point, they have admitted that dogma outweighs logic or reason. All you can do is try to reduce the dogma by showing internal problems. But even that may not work.

Yep, and to quote Dawkins: "you cant argue with a mind like that" - (he means "argue" in the sense of having a discussion, not a confrontation).

[bassman]

oh feck, it gets worse.
I'm informed this morning that she's attending "home group leader training" tonight. I can just imagine the bullshit they will be spewing.

Plus, the "Home group", (aka the enemy), are coming round tomorrow night. I think I'll just disappear upstairs for the night.

[NovemberRain]

Sorry, but I find that just not great discussion skill. WHY on earth would anyone tell you that they'd doubt their beliefs?

I do a lot belief work (my teacher is a guy who invented a process for people to see that their beliefs are only one truth and not necessarily THE truth). Even people who go to an expert, and pay lots of money for the privilege, don't want to doubt their beliefs. 'But it's a fact,' they cry. It's worse when they 'know' it's not a fact. And yet they can still un-believe. That's why he's my teacher. It's some of the best magick I've ever uncovered.

Anyway, I talk to people a lot about beliefs. My dad is a serious skeptic, and extra so when I bring it home. But I share my process with him, and he's witnessed me unbelieving some things the last few years. One thing he said to me was 'beliefs are the things that don't change, when everything else does.' So, he's got a belief that you can't really unbelieve things. (which is a belief that can be worked through, lotsa folks have it.

Anyhow, I've strayed a bit. You cannot approach a debate, or a discussion, by saying, 'how can I make you see you're wrong?' (which is a translation of 'is there any evidence that could make you doubt your beliefs?') If I'm approached with that, I'm likely to hear that you already think I'm wrong and you want to take away something that I not only see as valuable, but a very foundation of my very existence. Why would I offer you an opening to take that away?

Now, you show some appreciation for WHO I AM (which i think is my beliefs), and some care for how I live my life, then I am more likely to engage in conversation with you at all. Then I'm more likely to consider questions you ask me. Small questions. How about 'tell me about how going to church makes you feel, sweetie'? Which isn't really a question so much as an opening to a dialogue.

[nycindie]

Bassman, it seems like you and your wife don't communicate very well with each other. There are questions left unasked, desires unspoken, needs unexpressed, and no boundaries set about your living space and finances. Such timidity on your part! I think you need to take charge of your life more, and make your marriage more of a partnership where you both work on goals together. Either that, or why do you stay?

[bassman]

Originally Posted by nycindie

Bassman, it seems like you and your wife don't communicate very well with each other. There are questions left unasked, desires unspoken, needs unexpressed, and no boundaries set about your living space and finances. Such timidity on your part! I think you need to take charge of your life more, and make your marriage more of a partnership where you both work on goals together. Either that, or why do you stay?

Thanks for this, nycindie - your words are ringing in my head over and over, and I know you are right.

She is going through some stress at work, trying to get a higher level job, so I dont want to add to her stress right now.

Mostly, I'm thinking of my son, who is only 7 now, he is the glue that holds us together at the moment. He is the light of my life, and I cant bear the thought of not seeing him every day.

Even worse, if we split and get alternate weekends for access, he'll land up going to that f*cking church every 2nd sunday

So I feel very very trapped

[SNeacail]

NR and NYC are right and they offer some really good advice. STOP attacking your wife and her beliefs, it will only make her defend it more. They are what they are, even if you don't agree. However, DO have the discussion how to make the whole relationship more of a partnership. Come up with a list of goals and discuss what it will take to get there. When the both of you can work as partners, and both feel valued as an equal partner, there is less of a desire to fight back.

As far as your finances go, come up with a list of NON-negotiable items like; housing, utilities, groceries, tuition, certain family necessities, savings toward goals, etc. You each should have a budget for your own personal necessities and extras (shoes, clothes, personal care products, etc.). If she decides she would rather give money to the church instead of going to lunch with her girlfriends or buying the new pair of shoes, that's her choice and it doesn't impact your agreed upon goals. Give her the freedom to follow her heart without sabotaging your partnership.

[BrigidsDaughter]

I was discussing this thread with Wendigo last night and he suggested that by being so hostile towards her church and, in a sense, her beliefs, by trying to talk her out of them. You are actually having the opposite effect and pushing her towards them, perhaps because she feels like they are the only ones who truly accept her.

[bassman]

Originally Posted by BrigidsDaughter

I was discussing this thread with Wendigo last night and he suggested that by being so hostile towards her church and, in a sense, her beliefs, by trying to talk her out of them. You are actually having the opposite effect and pushing her towards them, perhaps because she feels like they are the only ones who truly accept her.

mmm, I'm not sure what you'd call bluffing someone out of 10's of 1000s of $$s? That seems pretty hostile to me?