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  #21  
Old 01-30-2012, 06:00 AM
Quath Quath is offline
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Originally Posted by RunicWolf View Post
Actually reading the bible and not listening to the preacher helps here. The idea of Hell being a fire and torture filled pit for sinners was added by Dante to make The Divine Comedy more interesting. All the Bible says about it is that it's an eternal separation from God and Heaven. Not terribly interesting and not something atheists, or even most people, would fear.
I got into a discussion about hell with a few Christians and they were all over the place on it. Here is a website that shows the Bible verses that support a fiery, horrible place of torture and fire that is not separation from God.

From what I can tell, the Christians who object to this idea object on mostly moralistic grounds that God should not be so evil as to torture people for all of eternity for an Earthly decision. If you go with Hell being separation from God, you have to give up that God is omnipresent.
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  #22  
Old 01-30-2012, 07:16 AM
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I grew up in a non-denominational church; my pastor was just a man like everyone else - a scientist who returned to the faith later in life; he taught us to question and think critically about our faith; if we chose to tithe to the church, we could decide whether we wanted out money to be a general tithe, go towards the building fund, or towards missions projects/ including missionaries we were supporting. It was never forced. There was no dress code, everyone was welcome, and it always felt like a safe and welcoming home to me. (Growing up in an abusive household, I spent 3 days a week at church because they were supportive, caring human beings who respected my choice not to report it) Where tithing was concerned, that 10% could be anything from money, to time, to finding a bus in the junk yard and brining it to the attention to some mechanics w/in the congregation who fixed it up.
See, now, this is the kind of thing I thought we were going to get into. When we were married 12 years ago, I had imagined, in my mind, a place with a sort of a community feeling about it, and I could fully get involved in something like that, as a volunteer, but not a believer. Such a place never materialised, and when I look back now, we flitted from church to church. I remember us one time, having a meeting with someone from a church, as a preliminary to attending a serious of evenings , like a 101 (or alpha course). And this guy dropped a few "You should be doing this", and "you should be doing that", and it got my back up immediately, and we never did do the course. When I think back now, that was probably one of the first small red flags that went up for me, and Ive never forgotten that meeting. Perhaps that small red flag told me to watch out for more red flags, and the flags have been getting bigger and bigger ever since?

So much so, that a very good friend kindly bought me a book last week called "how to future proof your children", and its focus is about kids and technology. (NOTHING at all to do with church). So I read the introduction and there, on page 2, I see a reference to god (sic), and thats it - for me the book is meaningless now , I flicked through the book and I cant take any of it seriously.


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Originally Posted by BrigidsDaughter View Post

Fast forward 3 years to when Runic Wolf and I moved back to our home town when he left the Army and whoa! Our beloved pastor had retired, the new guy who had taken over was of the mega church mindset, tithe was the focus of 3 months worth of sermons. Only officially recognized members could know where the money was being spent and Runic Wolf was not considered a member all of the sudden, so they wanted him to attend "membership classes". When I went to the membership meeting, there were all the people I grew up with and respected trying to defend our church to this guy who had brought in his experts and who said that we'd dropped the ball.... that it didn't matter how many people came to know Christ because of the way we used to do things, because they weren't recorded and now attending our church, we needed to do things his way. It was very disheartening and we stopped attending almost immediately. Our pastor returned for the 25th Anniversary of the church and we returned for that event, but that was it.
Well, well, I think just maybe you're on the path I was on 6 or 7 years ago. I began to realise that the community work is a front for the pastor creaming a lavish lifestyle out of the congregation.

I'm predicting that you'll be looking at every church now with skepticism, and you will come round more and more to a decision that they all sprout superstitious lies , for their own gain.
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  #23  
Old 01-30-2012, 07:25 AM
bassman bassman is offline
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About a month ago, I had a chat with one of her fellowship group members. Ive been a bit distant with my wife ever since, because it brought up that huge mistrust I feel for them.

it doesnt help that she had bad pms the week after and was really grumpy to me and our boy.

Our festive season has not been all that festive

Anyway, I soldier on !

Tomorrow is a typical Sunday, I'll go out in ly lil boat in the morning, and she'll be off to church in the aft.
I think it was about this time, that the nookie came to a halt. I think I was hit sideways a bit by this guy reminding me whats in my wife's brain. Religious dogma, I'm afraid, is NOT sexy.

Although she tried to initiate sex a few weeks ago, I told her I felt too "battered and bruised". Last night she finally asked me what I had meant when I said that, a few weeks ago, and I told her it was a combination of her treatment of me around that time (shes admitted she was a grouch), and more so, my chat with her church friend. The subject didnt get pursued much beyond that last night. So maybe we're stuck again.
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  #24  
Old 01-30-2012, 08:21 AM
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On a another side note, she's very friendly with a girl from New Zealand, T, who is also into the evangelical stuff.

Now, this girl has had several boyfriends in the past few years, and she tells my wife a lot about what goes on.

The other my my wife, M, says:

"T says I'm her only friend that she can tell about her sleeping with the boyfriend"

Me:"thats because all Ts friends are from church, and that makes them judgemental and disapproving of the sex"

Wife "ermm, yes, actually, that IS true"

So, a small victory for me, at least my wife is not , I hope, AS judgemental about sex outside marriage as she used to be.
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  #25  
Old 01-30-2012, 08:28 AM
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Wife was dressed uber-sexy yesterday (to go to church, unfortunately, lol), long slinky dress with boots.

I asked her " are those FMBs? (f*ck me boots), and she said "yes", and I said "wow, thats a FMD, then, (f*ck me dress).

After she left home, I sent some suggestive remarks to her phone, which were met with a stunning silence.

Ive noticed a pattern where church days are not nookie days. I guess my suspicion was confirmed yesterday, then, that her going to church does not make for a sexy afternoon/eve. She's probably not turned on by the idea that my views on it are pretty much directly opposed to what she hears on a Sunday. And of course, Ive been away for 3 weeks, so that means she been going for 4 weeks. So their opinion is probably stronger in her mind than mine at the mo.

The whole church thing, I fear, may turn out to be a deal-breaker for me. I'm not sure how long I can put up with it
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  #26  
Old 01-30-2012, 11:22 AM
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BrigidsDaughter BrigidsDaughter is offline
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The whole church thing, I fear, may turn out to be a deal-breaker for me. I'm not sure how long I can put up with it
I think this may be true, but it has more to do with your inability to accept her for who she is and what she believes than the fact that she attends church. Just because you decided God wasn't for you, doesn't mean that you should ever expect her to come to the same conclusion. IMO, you sound as bad about "conversion" as her church. Faith or the lack thereof, is a very personal thing and each person's journey is different. Your inability to ahve sex with her because she attends church, to me, is very telling about the outcome of your situation should -you- continue on the way you are.
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  #27  
Old 01-30-2012, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bassman View Post
See, now, this is the kind of thing I thought we were going to get into. When we were married 12 years ago, I had imagined, in my mind, a place with a sort of a community feeling about it, and I could fully get involved in something like that, as a volunteer, but not a believer. Such a place never materialised, and when I look back now, we flitted from church to church. I remember us one time, having a meeting with someone from a church, as a preliminary to attending a serious of evenings , like a 101 (or alpha course). And this guy dropped a few "You should be doing this", and "you should be doing that", and it got my back up immediately, and we never did do the course. When I think back now, that was probably one of the first small red flags that went up for me, and Ive never forgotten that meeting. Perhaps that small red flag told me to watch out for more red flags, and the flags have been getting bigger and bigger ever since?

So much so, that a very good friend kindly bought me a book last week called "how to future proof your children", and its focus is about kids and technology. (NOTHING at all to do with church). So I read the introduction and there, on page 2, I see a reference to god (sic), and thats it - for me the book is meaningless now , I flicked through the book and I cant take any of it seriously.




Well, well, I think just maybe you're on the path I was on 6 or 7 years ago. I began to realise that the community work is a front for the pastor creaming a lavish lifestyle out of the congregation.

I'm predicting that you'll be looking at every church now with skepticism, and you will come round more and more to a decision that they all sprout superstitious lies , for their own gain.
Nope, sorry. There is nothing that you can say that will dissuede me from my belief in God. There is a BIG difference between faith in God and faith in the church. The modern mega church has very little to do with God and slapping his name on it isn't doing him any favors.

You sound like a very close minded man if one reference to God would make you completely devalue a book. Do you devalue American money because it says "In God we trust"?
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  #28  
Old 01-30-2012, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BrigidsDaughter View Post
I think this may be true, but it has more to do with your inability to accept her for who she is and what she believes than the fact that she attends church. Just because you decided God wasn't for you, doesn't mean that you should ever expect her to come to the same conclusion. IMO, you sound as bad about "conversion" as her church. Faith or the lack thereof, is a very personal thing and each person's journey is different. Your inability to ahve sex with her because she attends church, to me, is very telling about the outcome of your situation should -you- continue on the way you are.
...what hurts is not her belief in god, but that she'll just take what the pastor and congregation say as "right", and not consider me or my boy in any equation, the tithe being a good example. So when it comes to relationship advice or anything at all, they win. And if I disagree, I lose. Its that simple. I see them as the enemy, and a destructive force in my relationship ( and many many other aspects)
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  #29  
Old 01-30-2012, 12:56 PM
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Nope, sorry. There is nothing that you can say that will dissuede me from my belief in God.
This is exactly what I'm up against at home, and "nothing you can say" rings true to me. So, I'm sure you'll agree theres no point in discussing it with her, is there?


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Originally Posted by BrigidsDaughter View Post
You sound like a very close minded man if one reference to God would make you completely devalue a book. Do you devalue American money because it says "In God we trust"?
I'd hope its face value will be worth what it says, and I could buy a hot dog with it. But if I turned it over and it had some advice on the back on how to run my life, I'd treat that advice with the same scepticism as the bible, the koran, or astrology, or the myth of Zeus.
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  #30  
Old 01-31-2012, 05:20 AM
Quath Quath is offline
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This is exactly what I'm up against at home, and "nothing you can say" rings true to me. So, I'm sure you'll agree theres no point in discussing it with her, is there?
Unfortunately, that may be the case. If I ask the question, "Is there any evidence that would cause you to doubt your beliefs," then most of the time I get a "no" answer. At that point, they have admitted that dogma outweighs logic or reason. All you can do is try to reduce the dogma by showing internal problems. But even that may not work.
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