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  #361  
Old 12-18-2011, 06:19 PM
monkeystyle monkeystyle is offline
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Hey Carma,

From way over here (and I could be wrong, but whatever), it seems like both of you are holding onto baggage about your histories with one another. Lots of transgressions that have never been put to rest don't help a couple, even one thinking about splitting up.

Your husband doesn't sound like an evil guy, doesn't even sound like a bad one. He does seem like a man who has been struggling to express himself and doesn't know how to do it. Perhaps like a person who isn't good at describing their inner thoughts. And instead of communicating authentically, has played a pretty lousy game of avoidance - which in the recent past hasn't helped you one bit. I don't think this is a 'failure' in him, but just how he's responding to his level of understanding. He simply may not be built like you in his ability to process love, sharing and other feelings, by the look of it.

While I'm talking about it, I think words themselves are terribly overrated in terms of evaluating a person's character, or judging their state of mind, or gauging real feelings.

I have a wife (whom I love dearly), that for whatever reason can't deeply express herself through verbalizing feelings. For her, everything comes back to what she is DOING with me. Asking her to get down deep and talk about core feelings is a struggle (really almost impossible). Doing that just isn't part of her makeup.

In our early poly days when there was friction or problems, I often found myself thinking she was evading me, not telling the truth about what she thought, or completely covering up her real feelings. It got to a point where I can honestly say I pushed her beyond her limit to cope with me, because I was constantly in search of 'what she was really thinking'. I incorrectly assumed that she was eventually going to relate to me on my plane, and vice versa.

Anyway, we had a situation nearly identical to yours, with me in your role. Poly marriage, children, lives that we'd taken years to put together all dangling on a string. Every act of trying to come together seemed to push us farther apart. I was mentally on a ledge, seemingly without end.

What eventually led to common ground was that I stopped talking, and forced myself to start living again. I let the anger boil over (much to my chagrin, because I'm the type of person who MUST resolve things in my own way - or think I need to). And I just let things be for a while. Just lived my life with her, not waiting for the other shoe to drop, or evaluating her intentions anymore. I realized I wasn't joined at the hip to her, but I actually DID love her more than her wrongs amounted to. She was worth trouble, in spite of the trouble dealing with her was causing me.

And let me tell you Carma, it felt like a LOT of trouble. I wanted to be done, because I was convinced there was no way to fix it. It didn't help that I was positively certifiable while trying to work through the problems. It was almost like that through trying to fix the problems, find a way out or end things WAS the thing driving me insane - not the actual wrongs my wife had done. Stopping the fixing and communicating (at least in the way that I was trying to) was part of the solution to fixing it. I had to change my world view, and generally stop using the word 'should' altogether in thoughts about her. Damned hard. Damned hard.

I look back at that, and I think that like you, I had the wrong image of her abilities to be what I wanted her to be. But I loved her, and she wasn't doing anything harmful in the sense that I felt abused or neglected - other than what I'd done to make her avoid me. And when pushed outside of her box of coping with me, she did eventually resort to lying. But I had a hand in it. In hindsight, it was understandable given the pressures, and what I now know about her.

This post is getting long. There's a lot more to this tale, but it's your blog and not mine.

I'll close in saying that I can see a lot of myself in your writing about you, and definitely a lot of my wife in your husband. I believe you DO love him very much, and it sounds like he feels the same. Regardless of how things end (and no one knows how it will until it happens), try to keep your chin up. You're a good person (I think), and I believe your intentions are genuinely to do right by everyone. Sometimes though, things get lost in translation between people - and we have to re-invent ourselves to bridge the gap.
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  #362  
Old 12-19-2011, 08:50 PM
Minxxa Minxxa is offline
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Just wanted to say hi, and be good to yourself doll. As long as you are staying in the moment and looking at things realistically, that's the most you can really do . I'm glad you have a counselor there to help mediate this process. Unfortunately we can't make somebody do the work they need to do to be in a healthy relationship. And at some point, we can no longer live in the fantasy.

Take care...
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  #363  
Old 12-21-2011, 12:18 PM
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Thanks minx.

Monkey, thanks for sharing about your situation. I am glad you were able to find some common ground. I think you're right sometimes trying too hard can mess things up as much as not trying at all! At this point I feel like I'm not trying. And like you did, I'm focusing on doing the things I need to do to get my life on track.

A huge issue for us is the financial values that are polar opposites. Sundance is a spender. He is impulsive and reckless with money. His answer to the problem is make more money, dream up get-rich schemes, and play the lottery and seriously believe you'll win. I believe in living beneath your means. A simple life free of financial panic. I am minimalist and he is obsessed with obtaining more, more, more. He shoots from the hip where I want a PLAN. We have never resolved these issues because he rages when I try. He's like a giant two year old about his money and his freedom to spend it. He overrides my concerns. I'm defeated and exhausted and my credit is destroyed. And I'm damn mad.

Polyamory was never going to work for us. Our core values were so different and not being respected, and falling in love with other people didn't help those issues at all! It just distracted us from them and gave us new issues to be upset about! And his relationship with Barbie became a lot like the way he handles money: reckless and indulgent with no respect to my feelings whatsoever. Going over the top with his flowery words and promises to her, a fantasy just like his get-rich-quick dreams. Well she bought into them all. But ironically, I bought out.

It's Christmas and all the money is gone and our account is overdrawn. And Sundance insists he is not buying one thing for Barbie or her kids. How fucking stupid does he think I am??? I know he has managed to finagle some way to play mr. Bountiful generous hero to them -- because he did it to me! And my kids, when we first met. And still does go over the top with our sons, with everybody. It's like a drunken spending spree, but the financial hangover is horrifying. He goes broke every christmas and January and February are gloom and doom. He'll scare the crap out of me with "oh no we won't have groceries next week, this month is going to be bleak" .... But guess who always manages to get his special health foods and his dry cleaning and his specific hygiene products and his wine and his NEEDS all covered??? The one who is expected to "scale back" is the one who, ironically, already does - me.

Bad enough when we go broke because he's putting on the dog for our own family. But knowing he's siphoned off some money somewhere to buy some splashy shit for her and her kids??? Oh that's not sitting well at all.

And NO -- I DON'T know for a fact that he splurged on them. Because Sundance is and always has been sneaky and dishonest with the money. I will never really know the truth.

But i do know the nature of his relationship with her, and I know his ways. I also think if he DOESN'T buy her and her kids a Christmas gift, he would be a total asshole! So the fact that he's lying about it, to me, doesn't make much difference, does it? He's still going to do what he wants to do, regardless. He'll just keep it from me. I need to cut him loose so at least I'm one less person he feels he needs to lie to. It's best to lie to people who believe you!

Just my ramblings for the day! I do wonder if problems arise in poly with gift-giving. I can imagine in a healthy poly relationship how fun it would be to shop together with him for their gifts!!! But he can't even be reasonable in shopping for our kids so I can see where we'd fight over it. He'd want to do it up big and i'd be trying to be the voice of reason. Really, if there were a BUDGET, for example, it would stand to reason that when you have 5 more people to buy for, things have to stretch, right?? He doesn't see that his money is not just his -- it's marital resources. And that has to be respected, especially in a polyamorous situation. He's not poly though -- he's a sneak. Big difference.
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Last edited by Carma; 12-21-2011 at 12:22 PM.
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  #364  
Old 12-21-2011, 04:08 PM
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I just had to answer. It's such a important topic for me. I would go mad if my finances laid in ruin in front of me. I would never tolerate it. We came across money related issues at the very start of our journey ( see money and gifts ).

To avoid any quarrel about money, we separated our finances. Sward and I did so in our marriage (we never joined our accounts) and we continued to do so when Lin moved in. Each of us has an own bank account. We got a shared one that all of us use to cover the rent, utilities and food expense. I calculated who earns what and what percentage of the other incomes this amounts to. Thus each of us spends a fair percentage of the individual income for our shared necessities and all expenses are covered. I couldn't sleep well without this system.

When it comes to finances, I regard this special point as the only one where the utmost equality should be aspired from all involved even or especially in a poly situation. Normally you shouldn't strive for equality there, but everyone should be equally involved in laying the foundation for a shared living. Of course, everyone needs his own money. Money that you can spend as you see fit, that you shouldn't have to argue about with a spouse, just because you have been the person who earned it. But he shouldn't do it at somebody else's expense.

In a situation where a person is financially dependent on another, the same system should be in place just with a certain fixed amount calculated for the basic expenses. You need to know how much you need every month to make a living. I can't imagine being in a situation like yours around Christmas … it would kill all joy and happiness for me, if I knew that I have to fear the aftermath of the massive spending two more months into the future.

You need to stick to some principal rules there to protect yourself and your children from the impact of his thoughtless and unreflected behavior. Do you have no say in this matter? Aren't you able to prevent this? If he is this ignorant of the needs of his family, can't you get a grip on the money before he spends it for another family? Do you have an own income? Does he spend that too?

So sorry that this adds to your stress as well; especially around this time of the year.
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Last edited by Phy; 12-21-2011 at 04:12 PM.
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  #365  
Old 12-22-2011, 06:03 AM
Minxxa Minxxa is offline
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hey C... totally sucky, sorry!

I'm the same way as you. I'm not really very materialistic. I like buying gifts, but I like getting small things, things that are appropriate to the person. I'm not someone who thinks the amount of prezzies under the tree is a big thing.

i also don't like stress at christmas. I like fun, and a tree, and baking. And stocking stuffers. That usually include underwear and socks!

I know not everybody thinks that way. But to me Christmas is about family and sharing time and having fun. Not how much money somebody spends on you.

We're hopefully doing a small ass X-mas this year. But even so... H and I have separate finances and have since we got together, so at least I don't have to worry about my credit being f-ed up if he is more extravagant with is other relationships.

As for me, I would rather get nothing for x-mas and get treated well. I'm an oddball though...
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  #366  
Old 12-28-2011, 05:55 AM
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Thanks phy and minx. I wish we'd established separate finances from the start!! It sounds like one key to a healthy relationship. Especially when there are differing values regarding money and spending - which we definitely have! We never could reach a compromise. And sundance is NOT comfortable with relinquishing control! I am finding this as I start to assert myself with him more than I ever have. We are now fighting like cat and dog. It is terrible. But in a way it actually feels good! I feel the marriage is over so I have the freedom now to speak my mind and stop playing the role of submissive wife. It's tough on the kids though because they have never seen us fight, ever. I have always caved whenever he got angry. Well one good thing, I guess -- the kids may actually be relieved when we split, because the fighting will stop! At least under the same roof anyway. This is no way for anyone to have to live for long. The tension in our home has become unbearable. It motivates me to strive for change. So I guess I could say it's a good thing in a way. Actually it's all good, as long as I focus in the positives and embrace the journey. I can do that, if I put my mind to it.
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  #367  
Old 01-28-2012, 03:26 AM
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Haven't posted much lately. Things are horrible. I want a divorce, but these wheels don't turn overnight. In the meantime we are still living under the same roof, and we are fighting more. It is upsetting the kids and it is miserable.

Sun is out with Linda tonight. I hate when he's out with her, knowing he'll come waltzing in whenever he pleases, and half the time he's still telling me he wants our marriage to work, that he doesn't love her, he still loves me and if there was ANY WAY for our marriage to make it, he's willing to do ANYTHING. I said "Give her up for ONE WEEK, and we will see what's possible." He CLAIMS (lies) he broke up with her the next morning..... but when he didn't see an immediate change in me (i.e. an immediate reward) he went right back and called her WITHIN AN HOUR!

It is such a process, giving up that last shred of hope for a marriage. I am finally there, but it has been terribly hard. Mostly because of his LIES, LIES, and more LIES. I swear I cannot take it one more day..... but here I am, stuck. I'm afraid to file because he rages. I'm afraid to agree to a dissolution because he lies.

Did I mention he lies?

I wanted so much for him to WANT our marriage, to want to change. But he doesn't -- he just wants ME to change, to accommodate him. I've been trying to do that for 13 years! I'm exhausted, and I don't want him as he is. I cannot accept his ways. I have always overlooked things I shouldn't have. I am finally seeing things clearly, and realizing I DESERVE BETTER. I want a grown up!!!!

Sun brings up my affair with Butch as a threat all the time, and lords it over my head he will tell the kids. He also uses polyamory as complete justification for his love affair with Linda. Even though my side of poly was radically honest, and his was lies right from the start! Linda became his next co-dependent. He is addicted to her stroking his ego. And they drink together -- and I am 7 months sober. So clearly, he is having a lot more "fun" with her. Which is totally ironic, because I am such a better person now without alcohol in my life! I'm so clear and focused, and I'm not looking for temporary escapes anymore. Linda carries a flask of vodka around with her throughout the day. Wow. That's fun! And he claims she is wild in bed. Good. Because I could be wild sometimes but other times, I wanted tenderness, and sweetness, and emotional connection, and Sun is just not interested nor capable of that. Glad he's found his best match. Even though, I wish he would have wanted to grow into the best match for ME, the mother of his children and a pretty nice chick. Life is too short, to be waiting and hoping for someone to want to change, then waiting patiently for them to actually take steps to MAKE the change... Again, he is not interested. I am sad that a 60-year old man is still acting like a 12-year old.

Anyway, that's my latest. I do have moments of great peace, knowing I am making the right decision to end this marriage. But there is still a lot of misery and frustration and disappointment and fear and..... Ugh. All kinds of rough stuff.

Butch and I are on hold until I get divorced. He didn't need all the stress of my emotional roller coaster, and I needed clarity. I am looking forward to dating him! But he's got kids to focus on and is still dealing with health issues and financial hardship..... So, someday, I hope, there will be "a time for us." But nothing too heavy, no commitment, no jumping into anything. I just want to be ME for awhile! I am lucky -- Butch always did encourage that, anyway.

Wishing all of you well. Thanks for reading.
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  #368  
Old 01-28-2012, 06:28 AM
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Dear Carma,

glad to hear from you again, even if things are so dire. I have been wondering how you were doing lately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
I wanted so much for him to WANT our marriage, to want to change. But he doesn't -- he just wants ME to change, to accommodate him. I've been trying to do that for 13 years! I'm exhausted, and I don't want him as he is. I cannot accept his ways. I have always overlooked things I shouldn't have. I am finally seeing things clearly, and realizing I DESERVE BETTER. I want a grown up!!!!
Please, keep this bit in mind. And stay strong, yes you deserve better and you have grown so much already. Even if it is growth caused by pain, but it changed things for you. Keep on fighting, I know the result will be worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
Sun brings up my affair with Butch as a threat all the time, and lords it over my head he will tell the kids. He also uses polyamory as complete justification for his love affair with Linda. Even though my side of poly was radically honest, and his was lies right from the start![...] And they drink together -- and I am 7 months sober. [...] Life is too short, to be waiting and hoping for someone to want to change, then waiting patiently for them to actually take steps to MAKE the change... Again, he is not interested. I am sad that a 60-year old man is still acting like a 12-year old.
Don't let him threaten you. Two wrongs wouldn't make a right in each way. And tell him off for even thinking about involving the kids for his means, that's the worst he could do, remind him that he still is a father who has some responsibility even if he doesn't like what his life looks like at the moment. And tell him that if he want to count faults, a drunken father is the worst of all possible things.

I am kind of surprised that he is this old, I somehow thought of him as younger because you mentioned his fitness-mania. Now his stubbornness and pigheaded character becomes a whole new dimension, some of his traits remind me of my father.

I hope you will be able to endure what will come and pass through this experience without being too wounded. Thinking of you and sending you (((hugs))).

Phy
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  #369  
Old 01-29-2012, 02:44 AM
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Glad you've uncovered some truths and affirmations, Carma. There will probably be more where that came from. I'm sorry to hear about the constant fighting in front of the kids though.
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Old 01-30-2012, 02:16 AM
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Sun came home at 4:30 am Friday. I had asked him in the morning to just let me know around about what time he'd be home. He said "Ok. I probably won't be that late." He never called or texted. Then Saturday night...5:30 am, SAME EXACT THING.

Friday I was home with the kids. Saturday, the kids had sleepovers at their friends' houses, I went to a girlfriends til about 10:30.

I feel so many emotions it can get very confusing sometimes. Why am I up all night crying about this?!?!?!?!

I just wanted him to choose something different. Yes, my ego is wounded. But I know in my heart that she is not good for him! Well -- let me retract that statement. I know NOTHING in my heart, because he has lied to me so much, I have no idea what she is really like, or their relationship!

I never met her. He told me she is flighty, flaky, carries a flask of vodka on her everywhere she goes, drives drunk and erratically; she is ADD, can't focus, can't spell and uses terrible grammar (embarrassingly terrible at times), is not his type physically, is tall and has big hands and feet, has fake boobs, does not have as pretty a face as me, has strange children, is a gold-digger, dates other guys, and just isn't the right one for him.

So is this all lies?????

The only good things I have heard about her? She has nice hair. She is wild in bed. And she treats HIM like a god.

Can she really be what he wants? Can he really think she is a better choice, than working on himself to save his FAMILY????

I just don't understand. I guess she is the easier, softer place to land. Weird, though, you'd think going through a divorce is going to be much harder. Why can't he just choose to be a better man?????

I also have weird thoughts concerning our poly adventure. Was it really the best attempt to save our marriage? Would it have been better for him to say, upon discovering my attraction to Butch, "It's going to be him, or me." -- ? I wonder sometimes what would have happened if he would have just LEFT ME. Just packed his bags and left. Would I have been begging him to come home?? Wow --- before all this horrible lying and sleeziness with her, I think I would have!!!!!

This whole thing is tragic.

What if Butch would have just said, "No. I'm not taking just PART of who your wonderful wife is -- she deserves better." Because Butch didn't want all of me - he never accepted my heart. The heart that was bleeding for him. Someone should have just put a tourniquet on it. He used me. But I was offering to be used, I mean, I agreed to it, wholeheartedly. I'm not saying I am bitter towards him. Or should I be? I don't know. I am the one who agreed to a compartmentalized relationship with him, settled for whatever scraps he had available, because I was doing it for HIM, right? Not at all for me.

What I needed was connection. I never had it quite right with Sundance. Is he connecting with Linda, in that way I needed?????

See how confused I am?

I thought my marriage was good, and that my love for Butch came out of no where. Out of compassion for him, out of concern for HIS needs. Am I really just like everyone else, "I had an affair because something was missing in my marriage"? Ugh. Yes. Now I'm looking at what was missing, and it's SO DAMN HARD TO ACCEPT. And it's so hard to accept that it can't be fixed by just one person!!!!!!

Sundance has no interest in growing up. He has no interest in (or capablility of) being honest. He won't try anything wholeheartedly. He'd rather throw our marriage away than try. And here I thought it was all because of my love for Butch! NO -- he was willing to accept that! What he can't accept is that I want a one-on-one relationship with a mature adult. He would rather give up, than become a mature adult!

I am grieving this. I am having a hard time that while all the time I blamed myself for the problems in the marriage (the ONLY problem was my love for Butch) the problem really is something out of my power to do anything about. All those self-help books I read!!!!! If I could just fix ME, my marriage could be happy.......

I only did my own inventory. I never did an inventory of the relationship. It takes two to make a thing go right......

I am so sad that Sundance will not stand up and be a partner to me. I am so sad he won't/can't. I am so sad he would rather try to lie and bluff and cheat, than just do the work to BE that man. But he has proven, time and time again, that he is not interested in that, at all. I have to do what's best for me. Sadly, it will not be so great on our kids. But anything is better than the warfare that is going on in our home. And the tension, and the mixed messages, when we actually do get along. What a mess. It has to stop!
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