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  #11  
Old 01-14-2012, 03:20 AM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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I have a few thoughts on this that I feel like sharing.

I have seen many people choose fluid bonding only for their spouse(s) or long term live in relationships, and it can have to do with safety issues, with feeling special, with pregnancy worries (real or imagined). I don't know that she needs to give you reasons you think are valid that she doesn't want her husband to stop using condoms with you. I don't think pressing her on it now when she's said she isn't comfortable about it would be the kind thing to do.

When I was married previously, I started dating a person who had (partially imagined, mostly self created) ED and performance issues. It was my first other relationship that got serious, and condoms were making it very hard to have intercourse. I asked my husband if I could stop using condoms with this partner after 6 months. I knew it was pushing his comfort to do so, I knew I wouldn't appreciate being asked the same so soon, but I wanted to make it easy on my other partner, and I wanted to be having sex with him whenever we were together, so I did it anyway. I count that as the first of two times so far in poly that I rushed something that didn't need to be rushed, and put my SO in a bad position.

My current husband has issues using condoms (he's that guy up in the paragraph above I was talking about). We have had lots of talks about this, because even though it's hard for him to have sex with them on, we've agreed to not discuss fluid bonding with other partners until a relationship is long term, though we haven't set a specific "time". I don't imagine I'd feel comfortable with him fluid bonding with somebody for closer to a year. And I'd want to be friendly with them, and their partner(s) too, so I could really feel I had a handle on risk levels. I think that'd be the case even if we ended up in a closed quad. I do have to say I think there's a zero% chance I would ditch the condoms for him or for myself for a partner we weren't seeing much more regularly than 3-4 times a year, no matter how much he or I loved them.

My first husband to cheated on me after 12 years, the first time we we had a chance to have other partners (panic ensued after not finding anybody to sleep with so he made a bad choice so he could have a "sure thing") He did everything wrong including not using condoms. I never in a million years would've believed he could do that. If your partner's wife has ever been cheated on, expecting her to really trust acquaintances with her life (cause that's how I see it) no matter how trustworthy you know you are, no matter how much you trust your husband, that's asking a lot.

I also imagine that if she isn't feeling a lot of compersion with him dating you, the request to start trying condoms with him to help make it easier for him to have sex with YOU might not be met as a positive. It's something I want to practice with my husband because I want him to be able to have awesome sex, but I can certainly see how it could be viewed negatively, so please don't be offended if she doesn't jump eagerly to help. If they have any sexual issues at all themselves that could compound their problems too and cause resentment.

Anyway, I understand the frustration. I urge you to give her as much empathy and space to get comfortable with what you want as you can, as she is monogamous and we know there are a whole set of additional issues in mono-poly relationships. Since you are his first other sexual partner, it is probably all sorts of stressful for her, and there's no actual reason not to take it slow, nobody ever died from not getting to set asides condoms to have more sex. Just look at it as character building.

I can only imagine how threatened I'd be if my husband was plotting with another partner to break an agreement we had because he was tired of waiting for me to be comfortable enough so he could do what he wanted. I know you think you have good reasons, but if your husband started deciding he wanted to do things that you had agreements against, I don't imagine you'd be too happy about it either.

I kinda suggest you try to be OK with what you can have for another few months. Leave the condom talk off the table during your interactions, enjoy what you can, and let them work it out between themselves. Riling each other up with how unhappy you are and how much better it could be "if only" isn't doing anybody any favors I am guessing.


edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_condom male condoms provide enhanced sensation for men as compared to male condoms [12]; female condoms may provide enhanced sensation for women as compared to male condoms
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Last edited by Anneintherain; 01-14-2012 at 09:37 AM.
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  #12  
Old 01-14-2012, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwendolenthefair View Post
If she doesn't trust me now, I doubt she ever will. That would be very sad, for me...

I worry that she is NEVER going to be OK with him being poly, and I wonder how being with me can even be worth it to him.
I think your focus is misplaced. You seem to think that the big problem is HER not trusting you, HER non-acceptance of poly, HER need for you two to have barriers in place for sex, and that everything will be hunky-dory when SHE changes her position on these issues. But you are overlooking two things. First: She DID accept poly, by staying in the relationship with him and giving her okay for him to pursue another while they are still together, and setting boundaries for doing so. But you just don't like her terms. You and her husband are coming across a bit like whiny teenagers who just want to stay out all night without a curfew. Second: You yourself seem very unaccepting. If you can't accept that she will never be okay with poly, that she may not trust you, and that she will never feel okay with him going bareback with you... AND SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE... then you are no less difficult than how you perceive her to be. She's mono, deal with it. That is what you need to work around to be in a relationship with him.

AND there is no guarantee that getting your way and going bareback will magically give him a boner that lasts. There could be other factors, but you're so-o-o focused on making her the bad guy and that her insistence on using condoms is the reason sex with him is unsatisfying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwendolenthefair View Post
Every time he sees me it seems to engender so much discord on his end. I would have walked away a long time ago, love or no love, if I thought that by doing so he would just default to monogamy and be content with that, but he is poly to the core. He has told her numerous times that he loves her dearly, but if she truly can't deal with him being poly, he will let her go and support her as much as he can in building a new life and new relationships. She chooses to stay...
You might still have to walk away anyway, if you can't be patient enough to let things progress at the speed of the person most uncomfortable with this. I have walked away from two opportunities to be in relationship with married poly men specifically because the ways that they conducted their relationships with their spouses didn't sit well with me. One of them I cared for very much. But why should I try and change their relationships? Not my job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwendolenthefair View Post
Only one of them is content with the boundaries she has set. My boyfriend is not content with them at all. He wants to fluid bond with me. He will not push it too much at this point because he doesn't want to upset her anymore than just him being poly is upsetting her. However, he says that if she is still not agreeing to allow us in a year's time, he will likely go ahead without her agreement on it, assuming that it still feels safe to him to do so....
And you still want to be with him if he does that? You would be okay to break his agreement with her? I see no "walking a mile in her shoes" on your part at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwendolenthefair View Post
While I like to think that her attitude has changed, I can't be sure. Her behavior on the fluid bonding issue doesn't seem to support that it has, to me.

...when something isn't rational, I look for the reasons behind it. I know she has major sexual jealousy where he is concerned.
Again, she doesn't owe you an explanation. Her relationship with him is none of your business. Work on your relationship with him and stop discussing how unfair you think she is. Don't be a sounding board for his complaints. Find solutions that are just between you and him and don't depend on changing her and his relationship with her. I think you need to be more generous in spirit toward your metamour and just focus on kindling a better sexual dynamic with him while staying within the boundaries they have. By doing that, she might be able to eventually trust you, but that shouldn't be your ulterior motive. Just take care of your relationship with him, and let him worry about his relationship with her.
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Last edited by nycindie; 01-14-2012 at 06:09 AM.
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  #13  
Old 01-14-2012, 12:25 PM
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I agree with nycindie, particularly about the part of you being all fine with him violating their agreement with you. That's so uncool.

If you can't be sympathetic towards her, have you thought about what kind of position you are putting your boyfriend in? He has agreed on boundaries with his wife. They may not be 100% what he would prefer, but relationships sometimes require compromise, and relationships definitely require patience and respect. He is giving time, which is the loving thing to do from him. The loving thing from you would be to let him do that without adding pressure on him by focusing on all of "her boundaries" that stop you from having all you want.
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  #14  
Old 01-14-2012, 04:58 PM
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"A hard man is good to find," as Mae West once said, Aphrodite rest her soul.

Sounds like you're in love with a man with ED. Condoms or not, it's disappointing. Since you only see him so seldom, in your shoes I'd welcome ANY kind of sex he is able to provide. Outercourse is great, and toys help.

Keep your options open and keep looking for another lover locally who has a nice hard cock. Perhaps your husband has one!

My primary insists I use condoms with anyone else, no matter how clean and shiny he is, and despite me being 56 and definitely not fertile. It just makes her feel special, to know we are fully exchanging fluids intervaginally with each other. (She's trans, she is pre-op.)
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  #15  
Old 01-14-2012, 05:38 PM
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If you are willing to have him break agreements, then you are moving from poly to cheating. If he is willing to break agreements with her, he will do the same to you. There is no guarantee that the person he breaks the agreements with next time will be safe. However, there will be a next time because by allowing it you tell him it is ok to do. That being said, he is using her as a crutch instead of owning his agreements. If he doesn't like the agreements, it is up to him to renegotiate not you. The fact that he has not renegotiated but comes back with yet another excuse blaming her, so that you don't see that he is the real problem, tells me quite clearly that he doesn't perform that well even without condoms. Unless you sit and watch him with his wife, you will never know the truth of their sex life and you shouldn't.

Your relationship is with him, not her. You are dating someone with ED. You aren't going to have porn star sex. Get used to it. He needs to own it. Right now, it is less embarrassing for him to blame his wife than admit that his problem is not completely cured by the wonders of medicine.
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  #16  
Old 01-14-2012, 06:50 PM
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My boyfriend is not blaming his wife for our sexual issues. He does think she is being unreasonable because, like me, he believes that fluid bonding is a safety issue, period. He is not breaking any agreements at present. He said that he wants to wait until a year has passed (not a year in our relationship, a year from NOW), and try to renegotiate their agreement (assuming we are still in a position to fluid bond safely). If she refuses to do so, he may act without her support. If he does that, he is willing to accept whatever consequences she decides on to keep herself safe.

We both believe that a poly relationship should proceed at the pace of the slowest partner, but if one partner is completely halted in their tracks and refuses to progress at all, then there is a serious problem that may not be solvable. I hope that is not the case here. We'll see.

Many men have ED with condoms and are basically functional without. I have passed on more than one lover because of this issue, people I would never have considered fluid bonding with. I also had a serious partner who was 28 years old and had this issue, with me, and with the woman he dated after me, but never with his wife, who was the only person he ever fluid bonded with.

Magdlyn, I like your practical solutions and I am definitely dating locally and open to having another partner. Alas, I am already married to a man with some ED issues. (No condoms used here either, just years of sex therapy, weekly testosterone shots, bottles of Cialis, and a whole lot of him flying off the handle because of what he imagines I am thinking or feeling. Sigh.)
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  #17  
Old 01-14-2012, 06:59 PM
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You did say that he was happy with your sex life. That makes me imagine that he's not an amazing sex machine in bed at home either. You complaining that you'd like it to last more than a few minutes means you really hope for a lot. If he is happy and you're not... that really is a different issue.

Moving at the pace of the slowest partner doesn't mean that you keep moving until there are NO agreements or boundaries left. You haven't mentioned any other issues besides the sexual one, maybe there are some other things you would like to change over time - but I've never before heard of somebody saying that fluid bonding was something they insisted on happening and that one partner just was "refusing to progress" if they weren't OK with it happening. (I'm sure some people do say that, but I haven't run across it before) Besides the fact that it's only been six months...I think it's a problematic attitude for both you and your boyfriend.

Also if you did get to fluid bond then you had to stop because of the addition of another partner somewhere, you'd be right back at square one but even more discontent.
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  #18  
Old 01-14-2012, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwendolenthefair View Post
He does think she is being unreasonable because, like me, he believes that fluid bonding is a safety issue, period.
How is it that she is being unreasonable then? Just because you've been tested and had clean results (but haven't had the follow-up tests yet)? That isn't always enough for a partner to feel safe. Is she supposed to say, "oh, all righty then" just because it's good enough for you? And because you two won't accept her reasons for not going bareback? Wow, I can't believe how selfish you are.

You are still refusing to see how much you and he are vilifying her. You seem to think you are more important than she is. You are being quite callous by siding with him against her, and somehow have talked yourself into believing that's okay.
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Last edited by nycindie; 01-14-2012 at 07:07 PM.
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  #19  
Old 01-14-2012, 07:16 PM
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nycindie, you seem to be quite fond of the word "vilify."

As I have said previously in this thread, my last sexual partner outside of my boyfriend and husband was a year ago. I was tested seven months after my encounter with this other person (in which condoms were used). There was no need to do followup tests to know that I was OK because there are no STDs that incubate for longer than six months, according to my friend the safer-sex educator. Regardless, I will be tested again before I see boyfriend again, even without any new partners, just for my own peace of mind. Boyfriend's wife knows all this. It isn't good enough for her, because she defaults to "Pregnancy is possible even with a five-year-old vasectomy and a 47 year old woman who is using a diaphragm." I haven't even tried to talk to her about what I would actually DO in a case of unplanned pregnancy (which is abort, since I believe that having a baby at my age would be a truly insane thing to attempt, no matter who the father is). There is no point.

If believing that another person is unreasonable and irrational is "vilifying" them, then I stand guilty here.

Last edited by gwendolenthefair; 01-14-2012 at 07:19 PM.
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  #20  
Old 01-14-2012, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwendolenthefair View Post
nycindie, you seem to be quite fond of the word "vilify."
My last post was the first time I used the word in this thread. ViableAlternative used it before me.

Nevertheless, all your defensive posturing about how unreasonable his wife is being doesn't matter. Like I and others have said, she doesn't need to justify her reasons to you for not wanting him to stop using condoms. She doesn't have to have the same reasons you do about why it's safe if she is uncomfortable with him going bareback. Others have said here that some people like to feel special by being the only one their partner goes condomless with. It doesn't matter that that isn't good enough for you. She has her own reasons and if her husband isn't happy with those terms, that is between him and her to renegotiate. Why are you so insistent that she change for you? And at such an early stage of your relationship with him? It almost sounds like you've been brainwashed by his complaining. I think you're smarter than that.

Odd, also, how you overlooked several posts where people are telling you that his agreements with her are his business, not yours, and that if you choose to stay in the relationship, pushing him to break his boundaries is not nice and borders on being unethical. You haven't responded about how you would feel if your husband had a gf asking you to change your boundaries for her before you were ready.

All you really need to deal with are his unwilling willy and your issues surrounding that, not hers. I'm done.
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Last edited by nycindie; 01-14-2012 at 07:58 PM.
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