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  #31  
Old 11-26-2011, 11:09 PM
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BrigidsDaughter BrigidsDaughter is offline
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Perhaps it is because of his prior abusive and controlling ex that he feels the need to break rules/ boundaries. Many times when someone has been abused and controlled, ANY boundaries or rules feel like too much.
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  #32  
Old 11-26-2011, 11:36 PM
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ChloeJane ChloeJane is offline
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Originally Posted by BrigidsDaughter View Post
Perhaps it is because of his prior abusive and controlling ex that he feels the need to break rules/ boundaries. Many times when someone has been abused and controlled, ANY boundaries or rules feel like too much.
I definitely feel like this factors into it, to be sure. Add to that the fact that he's been regularly breaking rules and boundaries for a lot of his life as a very active anarchist, feminist, activist and artist. I love his incredible past, and hearing about all of his adventures, travels and experiences, but am aware that his previous lives haven't created an issue or two for us to wrestle with from time to time
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  #33  
Old 11-27-2011, 12:13 AM
FireChild FireChild is offline
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My thought process is that there's an issue with that fact that it took you a good three times to reach the point where you're willing to renegoitate and you're not seeing it. Poly isnt the place to be inflexible you'll wind up pissed off everytime. What he did is completely wrong, I really dont think anyone is going to argue that. But what you did is equally wrong. Two wrongs dont make a right.
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  #34  
Old 11-27-2011, 01:09 AM
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ChloeJane ChloeJane is offline
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Wow. Intense!

What I hear you saying is that being immediately unwilling to renegotiate boundaries is "wrong" and that they need to be changed at the first sign of sexual greediness/transgressions?

Let's change the boundaries, and see if it resonates the same way for you, for curiosities sake:

Are you saying that if you have a mutually agreed upon boundary with your partner to... say... not have sex in your bed with a secondary partner, and they repeatedly do (It's a more comfortable bed! It's not sacred, your sister slept in there when we went to Mexico that one time and the spare bedroom was full of your sister's stuff!), that you should change your boundary around them sleeping in your bed, and it's WRONG of you if you don't?

Or...

If you have a mutually agreed upon boundary that your partner is to always wear a condom with a lover, and after three times of them transgressing this (They're safe! They were tested! You're being so controlling - condoms don't feel good!), that you should immediately renegotiate your boundary of wanting them to wear a condom with their secondary and that it's WRONG of you if you don't?

Or...

If your partner tells you that it's really important to them that you don't have anal with your secondary partner - that it's the one sex act they want to share between the two of you because it's really special to both of you, and you agree to this but transgress multiple times (It was just so hot, and you know how much I love it! Why are you trying to control my strap-on, it's not right!) in the heat of the moment that they should get ready to renegotiate their boundary instead of working out why you're not respecting it, and are actively hurting/disrespecting them?

A month and a half in, and it's wrong of us to not knee-jerk renegotiate boundaries of any kind? Seriously... I need to understand... in essence, if other people can't respect boundaries that all people have agreed upon, you should just throw them away, and NOT investigate what is going on first?
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  #35  
Old 11-27-2011, 01:35 AM
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By your own admission you didnt investigate what went wrong. You just reiterated why your way was right. If anything you told him why he did what he did and why he needed to do things your way.
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  #36  
Old 11-27-2011, 02:15 AM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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I think that ChloeJane isn't doing anything wrong at all. I have had issues with my husband where he pushes or breaks boundaries (albeit small ones). When we are in a situation it is often hard to be objective. I think it is my HUSBAND's job to come tell me when he is unhappy with a boundary since I am not psychic, and I take him at his word when he says he agrees to something. Since he doesn't usually see the big picture when it comes to this stuff, it has usually been up to me to deal with boundary issues a few times before I realize that it is an ongoing issue where a renegotiation is needed if after repeated conversation he just can't or won't stick to an agreeement (either because it makes no sense to him, he doesn't like doing things like that, whatever).

It sounds like ChloeJane is doing just that, and I'm not really sure why if a partner agrees to stick to boundaries and can't uphold their end of the bargain that it would be her "fault" and not the partner who isn't being introspective about their own wants and needs.

It doesn't sound like her husband was forced into any agreements, so I don't see why just because some of us wouldn't make those agreements for our own relationships means that there's a problem...as I feel like she's been pretty clear that they are open for negotiation, but it can be hard to negotiate quickly "forward" into less restrictive agreements when your partner isn't making you feel safe.

It's not as if he came to her and said "Babe, I'm unhappy with our agreements" So why is she the bad guy for not reading his mind? What if the boundary was one they made on condom use? One they made about not being appropriate to have casual sex with strangers? Agreement about who would pick the kids up from school? I am of the mindset that if you want to change the agreements and there's a problem, it's a joint effort to find a resolution, not a one sided one.
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Last edited by Anneintherain; 11-27-2011 at 02:23 AM. Reason: my cold is making me not make sense (more than usual)
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  #37  
Old 11-27-2011, 04:46 AM
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ChloeJane ChloeJane is offline
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By your own admission you didnt investigate what went wrong. You just reiterated why your way was right. If anything you told him why he did what he did and why he needed to do things your way.
I did do a lot of investigating as to what went wrong, and there has been a lot of really positive communication over the past few days between my husband and I. I do KNOW why he did what he did - he told me himself, and all of our boundaries were ones that we had pre-agreed, and revisited together throughout this process.

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Originally Posted by Anneintherain View Post
it can be hard to negotiate quickly "forward" into less restrictive agreements when your partner isn't making you feel safe.
This resonates deeply with me - to me it's about being sure that basic respect and safety is there. If a renegotiation is needed, that's one thing - but pushing forward without addressing the core issues that created this situation in the first place is a dangerous way to run a relationship, IMHO.

So far, it looks like our boundaries ARE staying the same, with one small change. We choose one night out of a weekend that we are spending together to stay up as late as we want for an all night sex-fest to honour their insatiable NRE desires, the other night - preferably Sunday, we go to bed no later than 11:30, blueballs or not to allow for everyone to get up and have energy for their important and demanding lives on Monday. This night, there is to be no sex started up by anyone after we snuggle up. We have sex up to five times in a weekend, so nobody will be starving for sexual activity.

I think the best thing that has come out of all of this challenging around the very nature of our boundaries is that it has helped my husband and I to become FRIGHTFULLY clear of our boundaries. It has also helped me suss out some incredible people, and hear a lot of opinions!

I'm am going to start a thread encouraging people to share their current boundaries so that "noobs" can see what a variety of people have agreed upon in their own relationships. Each of us have unique boundaries in our relationships, some may have none, and there may have to be room for renegotiation down the road - but I believe that boundaries are an important part of any caring relationship - be it parental, professional, spousal, with lovers, in friendship, in life in general!
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  #38  
Old 11-27-2011, 07:18 AM
dragonflysky dragonflysky is offline
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.... Add to that the fact that he's been regularly breaking rules and boundaries for a lot of his life as a very active anarchist, feminist, activist and artist. I love his incredible past, and hearing about all of his adventures, travels and experiences, but am aware that his previous lives haven't created an issue or two for us to wrestle with from time to time
It sounds like part of the challenge is that your husband....and yourself....really like that "rule/boundary" breaker aspect of your husband, but not when it comes to the relationship between the two of you. It can sometimes be challenging to allow the expression of a part(s) of oneself in one set of circumstances while limiting its expression in other aspects of one's life. For some people it would be like asking an alcoholic/addict to stop at "x" number of drinks because that's when they're funny whereas at "y" number they become belligerent and stupid. Or, to tell them it's ok for them to drink in these specific set of circumstances, but not others. And we all know how successful (NOT) it can be when one person tries to limit, monitor, or control the drinking behavior of an alcoholic !!

Now...is the rule/boundary breaking rebel behavior of your partner equivalent to an "addiction" for him??? Maybe he enjoys the thrills it brings to him in the moment so much that he doesn't choose to stop and look ahead at the long term consequences...much like an alcoholic/addict. Like the alcoholic/addict, he shows a great deal of genuine remorse after the behavior has occurred....but then turns around and goes right back out and repeats it. It certainly has created numerous problems between the 3 of you. If the behavior does have an addictive aspect to it....HE is the only one that can rein it in....deal with it. (Even a domm has no true power over addiction!) Trying to place external controls/rules/limits on it is only a "stop-gap" measure.

Just my $.02 worth as I read through your initial concerns and others' responses.......

Last edited by dragonflysky; 11-27-2011 at 07:25 AM.
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  #39  
Old 11-27-2011, 08:02 AM
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ChloeJane ChloeJane is offline
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Originally Posted by dragonflysky View Post
It sounds like part of the challenge is that your husband....and yourself....really like that "rule/boundary" breaker aspect of your husband, but not when it comes to the relationship between the two of you.
I think that we both appreciate its history in his life at different times, but he has done a lot of growing up since those days in a lot of ways. We do have some challenges with the vestibules of those patterns (as seen here) and both recognize that any change that happens has to originate from him. We've gone to a solid amount of counselling sessions both together, and individually to work on these patterns, and I am super proud of the hard work that we have done as a couple, and he has done as an individual. We also have some pretty incredible communication on our side, and years of working together towards common goals on our side now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonflysky View Post
Now...is the rule/boundary breaking rebel behavior of your partner equivalent to an "addiction" for him??? Maybe he enjoys the thrills it brings to him in the moment so much that he doesn't choose to stop and look ahead at the long term consequences...much like an alcoholic/addict.
No, I don't think that he is addicted to rule breaking in this situation, only that he is on a learning curve and is finding his way with two very intelligent, forthcoming, honest women.... the best scenario to help him find the path that will make everyone the happiest.

I truly appreciate this perspective, mind you and I think it was a smart and very possible observation.
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  #40  
Old 11-27-2011, 05:27 PM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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And trust me, I’ve got “other shit to do” too. (I’m not sure why I find that statement so intense, as I can see a smiley face afterwards – I guess I don’t take my husband’s bad behaviour as lightly). Having boundaries is a tiny part of a dynamic life, but it becomes a big part when they’re disrespected and violated. I don't have a lot of respect for deceit and selfishness in general.
This is directed to me I believe. I'm sorry, I was trying to be funny. I am just not where you are at, but on gathering further information I can respect that this runs a bit deeper than I understood at first glance. There is some history here that I was not aware of. I come from a place of having let go and trusting entirely because there are no issues. Any issues I had are my own not issues of my partner having deceived me. That is damaging and becomes an issue at the very foundation of a relationship. When I tried to maintain control over my relationships it was because of trust issues where I had no reason not to trust. I hope you see where the difference is here?
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