Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > General Poly Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 11-25-2011, 05:58 PM
SourGirl's Avatar
SourGirl SourGirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: South of an Igloo, North of a Desert.
Posts: 885
Default

Hey MrFarFromRight,

Thank you for a insightful response.
I enjoy examining things from all angles, so it was great to read your pov.

The movie is from the late 30's or early 40's I believe ? Psychological reference to gaslighting was coined about the 70`s.
A quick sweep of my favourite search engine, tells me :

' A little known, form of abuse. Gaslighting, is an emotional abuse technique in which one individual creates self-doubt in another. ' *

The most complete, and basic explanation (paraphrased)I found was ;
' Letting someone else twist and define your own reality.' **

I think the author in the link, used a simplified story, to explain how confusing gaslighting can be. The fact is, who knows if those people asking for rides were being malicious or not. There is evidence pointing both ways.
And that,..is how gaslighting drives people crazy. There is usually no proof, just a feeling. In fact physical evidence to the contrary, is usually what keeps the victim moving in the direction of the manipulator.

The people in the story, could of been doing this to many folks, to keep getting 'free rides' without ever coughing up gas money. ( no pun intended). There are little clues to that, by how quickly they go from just being 'grateful' to having expectations.
Or they could of been ignorant, and clueless,...who knows ?

The other point I`d like to make, is that like many other forms of manipulation, gaslighting starts off small,..and the 'big things' come later.

How this ties into poly ?..you hit the nail on the head Mr.FFR, with your example.

There are many cases of confusion from both newbies and experienced people, where they cannot tell if what their spouse or partner wants, is a reasonable request, or 'right'. I see many times, people worry about the moral and ethical evaluation, and forget that it could possibly be the manner in which their spouse is going about getting what they want, that is the real problem.
There are many forms of manipulation. Blackmail, passive-aggressive tendencies, gaslighting, etc. If people are to be their own primaries, then this starts with keeping themselves educated and safe.

We just can't sit here and TELL people we think their spouse is wrong, and expect them to do better simply because we said 'We wouldn`t put up with that.' It would be nice if we gave them a bit more information to look into.


______________


* - www.associatedcontent.com

**- Are you being gaslighted ? - Psychology Today.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-25-2011, 06:15 PM
BrigidsDaughter's Avatar
BrigidsDaughter BrigidsDaughter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 822
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
I started reading the linked article. (Didn't finish because it's now 4am and my alarm clock's set for 8am.) The author also uses the term "creeping concessions", a sort of "give him an inch and he'll take an ell" but in small increments that you have trouble noticing until it's too late.

I think that the example given (being asked to give a friend a lift -> ending up taxying more than one person wherever they want to go) might fit that, but I don't see the case for tying in gaslighting (the title of the article). I don't know the official definition of the term, I'm going by the film of the same title. But I'd say that gaslighting is a calculated and insidious manoeuvre to control somebody else by constantly putting them in the wrong, making them doubt their own judgement or memory, and making them depend on you, making them SOOO grateful that you're there to set them back on the right track whenever they blunder. Calculatedly creating a dysfunctional relationship based on co-dependence and inferiority complex.

In the film (and the original play), the villain's aim is actually to drive his wife completely crazy. The subject has come up on this board (in at least one case) where a wife took some time to realise that her oh-so-perfect husband ("I'm so lucky to have him!") was actually getting his own way in a selfish, spoiled-brat way by making her feel flawed, and lying to her. The realisation and its consequences have been very painful for her. Hence my interest in reading the article.

I can't see the example in the linked article as a case of gaslighting. If it is, it's in a very watered-down variety. No-one's going crazy, no-one's doubting their own memory (just somebody insisting that she said something when she didn't: her listener [supposed victim] knows that the speaker got it wrong). There no insidiousness about it all, no WISH to manipulate.

The article's about a group of people overstepping in asking for ever-increasing favours, and about somebody else who doesn't put their foot down and tell them so (allowing themselves to be taken advantage of). Gaslighting [as I understand it] is a LOT nastier than that. It's messing about with somebody else' sense of self-worth.
I think what the author was trying to point out is by his example is how gaslighting can begin as something as simple as that. Generally speaking, manipulator/ gaslighter isn't going to jump right to the hard stuff. They will start off by telling you that you agreed to something you don't remember and do so repeatedly over time until you begin to doubt your own memory. As the man in the example did. So at first you believe it was a simple misunderstanding and don't think it was intentional and by the time that you're thinking your going crazy it is too late.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-25-2011, 06:19 PM
SourGirl's Avatar
SourGirl SourGirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: South of an Igloo, North of a Desert.
Posts: 885
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
to the lovely and talented Sourgirl,
...matter of opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
Because I was pressed for time I didn't read the attachment and had no comment on the subject matter. My ears, eyes, and whatever, perked up because YOU started a thread....very rare.
I know,..2 in one week ! Whoddathunkit ? Well, I`m rarely in the mood for tangents, babysitting, and politics. This week, I`m inside a lot, and slightly bored to death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
I must admit when I saw the topic and your name attached I did think of actual gaslights ....my favorite hotel in the French quarter uses them for nightscaping....it has a very warm romantic feel....I'd love to see your eyes in that kind of light.
You stole that line from a Old Spice commercial, I just know it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
Its perhaps an obsession not a fetish. And for the record you're the one that hears the lyrics.
True. Obsession is more factual. My pervert brain thought 'fetish' while being flippant.
I write the lyrics, you enjoy them, the fetish/obsession is all yours Mister !

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
As for your plumbing problem (related to housing) civilization has its perks. ...pumps, tanks, pressure switches are unnecessary local gov do all that for you. This why you should hire a general contractor ....let him fight with the different trades or equipment manufacturer ...
HaHa..I`d rather bitch about my stuff, then hand over control to 'The City Man'. Now,..where did I put my shotgun,.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
PS how is the roan ? and seriously whats the photo of ?
She is just fine. Photo is a rorschach, I forgot to tell you.

And back on topic :

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
As for the topic of gaslighting and the article ...the driver( douchebag 1 )was completely at fault ....should have asked on the first call what all the surrounding facts were and who and what type of taxi services he's willing to offer. I would have waved and honked as I drove by on day three....deal with the fallout later.
Agreed. Most times, we have only ourselves to blame. There is a grey area though. If we want to have a society with any 'heart' at all, learning when to be giving, and when to look after yourself seems to be a life-lesson, that somewhere along the lines, has been left in the dust.
If you naturally have that skill-set, rock on. If you don`t, you might end up becoming a burden on society after you`ve been driven nutty, or end up being bitter about love and people, and shutting the world out.
I love a good hermit-session as much as the next guy, but I'm slightly thrown off by the people who go postal and hurt others, because they were wronged in their past.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-25-2011, 06:26 PM
BrigidsDaughter's Avatar
BrigidsDaughter BrigidsDaughter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 822
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SourGirl View Post
The movie is from the late 30's or early 40's I believe ? Psychological
The movie "Gaslight" came out in 1944 and starred Angela Lansbury as the wife. I have yet to see the movie, but am familiar with the term from a course I took on conflict and violence in families a few years back. We watched actual videos of people who experienced gas lighting; one woman's husband even had the neighbors unknowing co-operation in the process and their kids willing co-operation; including filming the escalation of abuse. It wasn't until he lost his job and she had to go back to work that she found someone who helped her realize that she wasn't crazy. It was very sad, but insightful.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-26-2011, 12:32 AM
Magdlyn's Avatar
Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Metro West Massachusetts
Posts: 3,724
Default

The original English version came out in 1940. It is arguably better.

Men deciding sane women are insane, and then doing all they can to drive them insane is the theme of this very interesting and creepy gothic horror short story from 1898, The Yellow Wallpaper, written to discredit the popular "rest cure" of the day, which was not at all restful.

http://www.scaryforkids.com/yellow-wallpaper/

Oh, and good flirting, dinged and Girl. *get a room*
__________________
Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-26-2011, 03:24 AM
SourGirl's Avatar
SourGirl SourGirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: South of an Igloo, North of a Desert.
Posts: 885
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
The original English version came out in 1940. It is arguably better.

Men deciding sane women are insane, and then doing all they can to drive them insane is the theme of this very interesting and creepy gothic horror short story from 1898, The Yellow Wallpaper, written to discredit the popular "rest cure" of the day, which was not at all restful.

http://www.scaryforkids.com/yellow-wallpaper/

Oh, and good flirting, dinged and Girl. *get a room*
I would, but he is SUCH the exhibitionist.

All this movie talk, has me curious to see the movies now.
Thanks Brigid and Mags.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-26-2011, 04:10 AM
MrFarFromRight's Avatar
MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Smack in the middle of The Spanish Revolution!
Posts: 483
Default

Reply to BrigidsDaughter and SourGirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrigidsDaughter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SourGirl
The movie is from the late 30's or early 40's I believe ? Psychological
The movie "Gaslight" came out in 1944 and starred Angela Lansbury as the wife. I have yet to see the movie, but am familiar with the term from a course I took on conflict and violence in families a few years back. We watched actual videos of people who experienced gas lighting; one woman's husband even had the neighbors unknowing co-operation in the process and their kids willing co-operation; including filming the escalation of abuse. It wasn't until he lost his job and she had to go back to work that she found someone who helped her realize that she wasn't crazy. It was very sad, but insightful.
There have been various versions of this film. Perhaps the most famous one has Charles Boyer as the [gaslighting] husband and Ingrid Bergman as the wife being driven towards madness [towards believing herself to be mad]. Angela Lansbury didn't play the wife, she played the maid with whom the husband flirted and used as a witness to the wife's "madness". In the society in which this all took place, it must have been considered even more degrading to have the servants smirk about your behaviour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SourGirl View Post
A quick sweep of my favourite search engine, tells me :

' A little known, form of abuse. Gaslighting, is an emotional abuse technique in which one individual creates self-doubt in another. '

The most complete, and basic explanation (paraphrased)I found was ;
' Letting someone else twist and define your own reality.'
We all have known cases of 2 people saying:
"I told you that ---"
"No you didn't. You never told me that."
"Oh yes I did: you've just forgotten."
I suspect that each of of us has been,at some time or another, on both sides of this conversation. People really do forget some things that they're told... and people really do believe that they made some point perfectly clear when they actually did nothing of the kind.

I agree with SourGirl that this is the kind of thing that we polies have to particularly careful about.* Someone on this board has a wonderful quote from G.B. Shaw as part of their signature. [I paraphrase from memory:] "The trouble with communicating is people's assuming that it has taken place."

I don't consider such examples of poor memory to be abuse. And I stand by by conviction that the term "gaslighting" should only be used about the willful and calculated technique to undermine another person's confidence in / belief in themselves. [The fact that it's a technique of abuse doesn't necessarily mean that the abuser is consciously aware of using this technique... or of abusing - healthy, well-adjusted people DON'T abuse.]

I wrote on another thread about a dear mono friend of mine whose husband was cheating on her. When she asked him about it, he denied it (of course). I wouldn't consider that gaslighting. That's just being a lying, cheating scoundrel. It was his telling her that she was imagining it all, that she was paranoid, was going crazy [attempting to turn it into HER problem, not his, and inviting her to question her own sanity] that was the gaslighting [as I understand the term, and using the definitions that SourGirl quotes above - creating self-doubt, twisting reality (but with INTENT to do so)].

* One of the [many] advantages of polyamory is that it's more difficult to gaslight a partner if they've got somebody else who loves them, is intimate with them, and can reassure them that they AREN'T going crazy. [Although there wasn't any (physical) polyamory going on, this was the role of the Joseph Cotten character in the version mentioned above.] It must be really awful to have your "one and only love" telling you that [aside from just joking] that you're a few ants short of a picnic.
__________________
If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson

Last edited by MrFarFromRight; 11-26-2011 at 04:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-26-2011, 08:12 PM
MichelleZed MichelleZed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 194
Default

I think it's a pretty good article about gaslighting, but the example at the beginning is not a good example of gaslightling.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-02-2011, 05:55 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,279
Default

I think I my have just witnessed the concession creep. One of the young guys that works here just asked to use some equipment over the weekend...no problem. I ask him whats the project....new girlfriends place he's been asked or something ... he didn't want to talk about in front everyone...so who knows how this all got started, I'll find out eventually. I do know somebody's getting a new kitchen installed ...loves blind sometimes. We've started a pool to see who he calls for help first.

Oh yeah ..I'm not an exhibitionist I just love the out doors and nature.

Last edited by dingedheart; 12-02-2011 at 05:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-02-2011, 10:41 PM
SourGirl's Avatar
SourGirl SourGirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: South of an Igloo, North of a Desert.
Posts: 885
Default

Geez dinged, we are trying to critique an article here, not actually look at the topic !

..wait, nm , I`ve been away to long.

Hmm,.. be interesting to see if he gets 'gassed.' Though I wonder if he offered in an attempt to 'wow' her ?

Ok, I really need to get back to these xmas decorations. I`m a week behind !
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
behaviour, boundaries, gas lighting, gaslighting, manipulation

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:10 PM.