Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > Poly Relationships Corner

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 11-11-2011, 01:30 AM
Times2 Times2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wild, wonderful West Virginia
Posts: 22
Default

I suppose that's just where we are right now. You're right, it has worked for us ten years and for them almost 19. There has been no interference with the loving devoted relationship between the married couples. But, again, they are devoted to each other and we are devoted to each but separate as couples and we are at the point that we are just ready to add another spouse. We love J and B but they aren't fullfilling the role we need filled now. They completely understand that this is where we are in our lives and our marriage and that they can't be what we really want, another wife, yes, I believe, a second wife....a sister wife without the religion and perhaps with intimate sexual contact for all if that happens to be the way it works out.

I can see why some might think we became in the post, 'less open' but this was never about sexual freedom. It's always been the need to.invite another spouse into the marriage we already have. I suppose, just as a polygamist man would meet, court, then introduce the potential to the first and second wives for their approval...I won't make a direct example of any particular religion in a negative light, but you understand. The difference is, there is only me, no second, no religion, and we will meet her together, court, see if the love is there and then make the same comittments to her as we did to each other.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-11-2011, 01:58 AM
AnnabelMore's Avatar
AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,250
Default

For the record, when I spoke of openness I didn't just mean in terms of sexual exploration. I was speaking in terms of your ideas about what you're willing to accept in a new partner and your thoughts about the shape things must take for you to find what you're looking for (a lifelong loving commitment from another person).

If your definition of "spouse" never in the past meant "someone who only ever has sex within the marriage", then changing it now to mean that seems to me to be a narrowing, or closing in. See what I'm saying? I agree that sexual freedom is far from the most important thing in life, the shift just puzzles me since it seems like you weren't in a place where you wanted to entirely cut off to other lovers until you realized that you were setting a double-standard. So, if it was never something you needed before, and don't need from each other now, why do you need it from the new person?

Understand, though, that I'm not trying to tell you that what you want or where you're at is wrong or bad -- I'm just exploring it along with you since, as you and others have commented, this sort of thing is so dang *interesting*.
__________________
Me, 30ish bi female, been doing solo poly for roughly 5 years. Gia, Clay, and Pike, my partners. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-12-2011, 05:46 PM
redpepper's Avatar
redpepper redpepper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,655
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Times2 View Post
It's always been the need to.invite another spouse into the marriage we already have. I suppose, just as a polygamist man would meet, court, then introduce the potential to the first and second wives for their approval...I won't make a direct example of any particular religion in a negative light, but you understand. The difference is, there is only me, no second, no religion, and we will meet her together, court, see if the love is there and then make the same comittments to her as we did to each other.
In Polygamy, from what I understand is common, its the man that calls the shots. Is this what you are suggesting?

"Inviting someone into you already established marriage;" that says to me that this woman would give up everything to be with you, including who she is as person. What of her friends, her career path, her family, kids, belongings? I haven't heard you mention any kind of thought that she would have a life too and that you would actually be entering HER life also. It all sounds one sided and ya, selfish. Polygamy outside of the religious context that we have seen on the media is not about a woman giving up her freedom/life and being handed over to a man who is to make her his wife (like the brides in the media), but a woman with a life and freedoms. Have you had any thought on that?

Its far more complicated than simply adding someone. I'm sure you know that, but I don't get the sense that you have thought of that too much. Have your read stories here about unicorns and the couples that seek them? I suggest you do as there maybe some learning from that.

It isn't uncommon to unicorn hunt (it is uncommon that couples become a triad the way that you are hoping to achieve your goal). What is WAY too common is what women and men go through when they are "added" to a couple with the naive assumption that they have rights and freedoms within that only to find that they don't and get really hurt and abused emotionally from abandonment, neglect, disposability when they are not achieving the goal of the couple etc. That isn't to say that you are these people, but its important for the readers here and maybe for you too to understand that there is potential for abuse in this scenario.... I hope you understand that.

For the record: Polyamory is an umbrella term that includes polygamy and polygny, it also includes many other things, but you are in the right place to talk about this.
__________________
Anyone want to be friends on Facebook?
Send me your name via PM
My blog
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-12-2011, 11:18 PM
Times2 Times2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wild, wonderful West Virginia
Posts: 22
Default

Just as anyone would go forth and seek out a life mate, that is what we intend to do. I never said he would call the shots. WE have decide to find another spouse. Does that mean that person has to give up their individuality? Of course not. Does that mean that we are gonna hover over that person and oppress them to do our bidding? Hell no. Are we gonna make her renounce her family and everyone in her current life? ABSURD. Does that mean that we will seek out the best fit to our current lives? Absolutely. When I met my husband, I didn't set out thinking that I would marry him and 'rule' him and take all his individuality away and make him forget or leave behind everything and everyone he knew. When he married me, he didn't set about trying to undo everything I had done in my life and have me do only his bidding or somehow control me. No real marriage filled with love does that. What we did do was ask each other to be faithful. And I am sorry, I don't believe our relationship with the other couple makes us unfaithful individually, it makes us kinky together.

This abuse, controlling and emotional oppression you speak of is NOT what we are about. As I have never had a wife, or a third person within my marriage, I do not know exactly what to expect, but I didn't have that absolution with my husband either and things have been fabulous. Hopefully, with the same dedication and affection any marriage is built on, one with a third party will also be just as rewarding.

I find it rather annoying that I registered at this site to put us in particular circles to maybe, just maybe, find a person that WE as a unit, could love, honor and cherish within our marriage, just as he and I do with each other. A lot of what I have gotten thus far is skepticism, condescending ridicule and the advice that maybe I should 'rethink' what it is I truly want and if it doesn't involve everyone having sex with everyone and anyone then it truly isn't a good thing.

I am not a religious fanatic and have no wish to add a second wife to my marriage based on the sexual whims of my husband. He has no wish to add a second wife to our marriage to be some domineering masculine tyrant over her. I think it is insulting to assume that is our 'ulterior motive'.

I introduced ourselves, made it perfectly clear and precise what it was we were looking for and thinking of and still the comments coming back to us are condescending, and indirectly insulting.

I am sorry if I have wasted anyone's time. I have made our case as honestly and completely as I believe I can. I don't wish to offend anyone, and if I have, forgive me.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-12-2011, 11:58 PM
Mya's Avatar
Mya Mya is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 367
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Times2 View Post
if it doesn't involve everyone having sex with everyone and anyone then it truly isn't a good thing.
I'm quite sure nobody was suggesting that. I think the only problem is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Times2 View Post
made it perfectly clear and precise what it was we were looking for and thinking of
Like you said, you have a precise picture in your heads what this new relationhip will look like. And that is the thing that usually leads to problems. People here have been suggesting that maybe you should open up a bit more - not because they would want you to have sex with "everyone and anyone" - but because your image of the new person is quite strict. He/she may not be able to fulfill that role like you would like them to. If you would let go some of the requirements then maybe it would be somewhat easier for the new person to fit in.
__________________
Me: bi female in my 30's
Live-in partners: Hank and rory
Also dating: Yvonne and Zooey

Blog
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-13-2011, 12:02 AM
AnnabelMore's Avatar
AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,250
Default

For the record, I never read any gendered imbalance into any of this. And I think that a LOT of what you've described and where you've gone in your thinking is right on target. But it's very, very easy to end up acting in controlling, unfair, and hurtful ways to a third person entering a relationship with a long-established couple without ever meaning to in the scenario you've described. As someone who's in a not-dissimilar situation to what you're looking for myself (see my signature, or my blog -- my gf and I don't consider each other "wives", but that's because our relationship is still fairly young, and we're taking it slow, exploring where we're going... could happen some day!), I've become sensitive to those issues. Reading other people's horror stories is really depressing. :/

I hope I'm not projecting onto you by trying to tease out any potential issues. As I alluded above, we've seen some real horror stories on here from both sides of the unicorn/unicorn-hunters scenario. Where I got concerned was, indeed, about the sexual exclusivity issue, but not because I think there's anything wrong with polyfidelity or exclusivity generally, not at all. Mono relationships, closed poly, I'm all for it. What works for you is what works for you in that regard. Rather, it raised a red flag to me that something you guys never needed before -- exclusivity -- should be a non-negotiable need for the new person. I mean, how is that *not* supposed to look a little odd? I see that you're requiring the new person to give something you didn't give each other and I ask "why"?

Because you two both were involved with the other couple and it's harder for three people to all be involved with the same folks? Because you were comfortable with your old friends but the idea of the new person bringing up an interest in unknown people is too uncomfortable? I hope and assume it's about those things, which would be a lot healthier than just a need for control. But for you to say "our marriage involved sex with other people before but if our new spouse wanted something like that with someone they liked, rather than with the people we like, no way jose, we'd drop Mr./Mrs. Third like a hot potato if he/she wanted that"... I mean, surely you can see why that might make someone say "woah, what?"
__________________
Me, 30ish bi female, been doing solo poly for roughly 5 years. Gia, Clay, and Pike, my partners. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-13-2011, 11:50 AM
Magdlyn's Avatar
Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Metro West Massachusetts
Posts: 4,092
Default

I am very sorry if you feel our comments here have sounded condescending. Perhaps you thought unicorn hunters would be more numerous here on this board. Perhaps you thought a couple "adding" another individual to share was a common thing in the polyamory world, and you'd be surrounded by successful triads and Vs living in poly-fi married sorts of ways.

Now instead you've found lots of people who had been former unicorn hunters or unicorns, where things have gone badly and people have been extremely burnt and learned to love polyamorously in different sorts of configurations.

I'm sure we don't mean to condescend. Instead, we are taking your ideal scenario and saying, all well and good, but here is where things can go wrong. Practical, down to earth advice, based on experience. Now you feel like we are bursting your bubble and it hurts.

Since I am a lactation specialist, let me propose a metaphor. Say a pregnant mother comes to one of our support group meetings expecting breastfeeding and parenting to be a bed of roses. She will sit in her white wicker rocking chair in the nursery, nursing her baby while wearing her prettiest floral button down the front nightgown. When the baby nurses blissfully to sleep, she will gently lay it down in its perfectly apportioned crib, leave the room, waft off to the master bedroom, have satisfying sex with her husband, and get a nice 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep.

But the more experienced moms say, Oh, but there will be days where the baby is teething, he hasn't slept in 18 hours, cries when you put him down, bites your nipple when you try to nurse. You haven't had a shower in 3 days, you've been living in sweatpants and a tshirt covered in spitup, can't remember when you've slept more than 2 hours at a stretch, and sex is a distant dream of long long ago.

Will this mother get angry at her ideal scenario being shot down, leave the meeting in a huff and never come back? Or will she take in that while she can hope for the best (ideal dream), she better plan for the worst (likely reality)?
__________________
Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. --Shaw

me: Mags, female, pansexual, 59, loving and living with
miss pixi, female, pansexual, 37
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-13-2011, 08:11 PM
redpepper's Avatar
redpepper redpepper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,655
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
That isn't to say that you are these people, but its important for the readers here and maybe for you too to understand that there is potential for abuse in this scenario.... I hope you understand that.
Did you read this part? Or any of what I said and others that indicated that we weren't necessarily talking about you? This is a public forum. We are talking to everyone who reads here.

I have no idea who I am talking to as you have not indicated which partner and the way of writing changed. Super annoying and confusing. If you insist on not getting two accounts in order to indicate that you are in fact two different people could you at least do us the honour of SAYING who is talking? Thanks, that would be very helpful.

I wish you luck. I don't have much more to say here as I really don't see how you can move forward without reading other threads and addressing some of the common issues that occur in this type of relationship dynamic you seek. I understand its hard to hear, but as Annabel said, a lot of us have been through this already or witnessed others that have and have some wisdom on the topic. It seems that you see us giving you are hard earned wisdom as scepticism and condescending ridicule. Well, I suggest you choose to not read it that way. If you are unable to understand and appreciate where those that have been there have been, then I got nothin' left for you.

Let us know how it goes. I love to be proved wrong. Bye for now.
__________________
Anyone want to be friends on Facebook?
Send me your name via PM
My blog
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-13-2011, 11:35 PM
Times2 Times2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wild, wonderful West Virginia
Posts: 22
Default

No one is leaving in a huff. No one is living in a fantasy bubble. No one is too unintelligent to understand anything. And I have said previously, I will do the posting for us BOTH. WE are a unit, so no need for a second account. WE post together. If you want to address one of us or the other, go ahead, we will both see it and both will answer. Shouldn't be too hard to understand and not too annoying hopefully.

Thanks for all the input. I'll be reading lots of forums. Let me reiterate for clarity...again. WE are mature, grown adults in a loving, successful marriage, seeking another mature adult to marry and participate in a plural marriage, faithful to one another. IN THE PAST, we have participated in kinky sex with another couple, but no more, hence, more a friendly hanging out having fun kind of relationship. We love them, but we are looking for a spouse who will fill an empty spot in our lives that our couple cannot. No one is looking to oppress anyone, no one is looking to control anyone. Just as my husband took a vow to love honor and cherish me, and I to him, we want to make that vow to someone else. That will mean, they, and we will promise NOT TO CHEAT. Should we, as a marital unit, decide to participate in kinky sex with anyone, it will be done and decided on as a group, or not at all. I have never had a boyfriend on the side and no one will, no one has ever had a girfriend on the side and no one ever will. WE will have each other. Take it or leave it.

Maybe everyone is getting confused because you might think that each of us, at possibly different times, were seeing one or the other member of the couple, ie me with J and D with B, on the side, individually. No, that never happened. WE as a couple, a unit, got kinky with them together. Never individually. We are faithful to each other, I don't consider our kink socials to be an exclusivity negating act. I've said it before, to us, and to them, we and they are sex tools. LOL and we love them and they us, but they know and we know, we want more. We want a spouse. So sexy sessions with them will no longer be on the table....unless, the new spouse is ok with it and also participates. We have no desire to have sex with or be in a loving relationship with her ex or her other lovers no more than I want to have sex with or have a relationship with his exes or he with mine. Except for our mutual decision to have kinky sex with our friend/lovers, I chose to forsake all others when I married him, he did the same for me, she must do that for us and us for her, if not, then she is not the one for us. Plainly, simply.

I understand and can see why you all think we are being unrealistic and maybe a bit selfish, however, when one goes out to find the woman or man of their dreams, they don't settle for second best or settle for someone who is less than what they are looking for to spend the rest of their lives with. We will take it slowly. We will have to work on the marriage. We will have a new family member, and a new extended family with complicated family dynamics of their own. We understand fully. We are mature and we can handle whatever comes. We are not making a blind decision. We aren't making an uninformed decision. We aren't expecting some unrealistic, bunny rabbit and fluffy cloud, tip toe through the tulips either. We are going into this with our eyes wide open.

For anyone else reading this very interesting thread, I have some advice; Know what you want. Think it through. Try to be realisitc in your expectations. Don't expect everyone will understand. Make sure all parties involved know what you are thinking. Be clear and concise. Don't settle for less than exactly what you want. Good Luck, and Happy Hunting.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-14-2011, 03:51 AM
AnnabelMore's Avatar
AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,250
Default

Ok, I get the distinction you're making with the playing-with-others-together-but-never-separately =/= non-exclusivity thing. It's not the way I would wanna do non-monogamy, but I'm certainly not going to tell you it's not the way to go when it's made you happy for ten years.

I'm sorry you've felt so attacked in this thread. I won't try to tell you any further that you shouldn't look for what you're looking for, and will instead think about where all this is coming from on our ends, and share some general thoughts that may be of use to you as you move forward.

I've been thinking about this thread in comparison to this thread -- http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16979 -- and asking myself why, exactly, do we think "unexpected polyfi triad = sounds great" and "planning on a polyfi triad = sounds like trouble"? Relatedly, why does this graphic exist -- http://www.obsidianfields.com/lj/polyprivilege.gif ?

Veau talks in the graphic about privilege and entitlement... getting special treatment and feeling like you're owed special treatment. If one takes his analysis to be correct, then one way to interpret it is that unicorn-hunting is problematic because it makes the statement "what we've built is special and someone new should join us, rather than us trying to reshape what we've built to fit someone new."

I have mixed feelings about the graphic. I find it funny, but I also find it to be a bit harsh to unicorn-hunters, as many in this community are. Surely, the vast majority of hunters, like you guys, have only the best intentions. So, again, why does the sort of search you're engaged in have such a bad rap? Why is it awesome if it happens accidentally but not-so-hot when it's sought?

All I have to go on here are my own experiences and the stories of others that I've read. And I think a lot of it is the stories. I feel like I'm getting repetitive when I talk about horror stories, but it really is true... we see too many sad folks who tried what you're trying from one end or the other and had it explode. Whereas when people find a triad serendipitously it doesn't seem to explode in quite the same way (all this talk of explosions... I feel like we're all mad scientists engaging in love experiments now ).

So... well, I *know* I'm being repetitive now, but... why?? Why don't we have more (any? not sure, but I haven't seen one yet) happy stories of successful unicorn hunts when we have a whole thread just for success stories in the blog section?

If I had to guess, I'd say it's because human relationships are crazy-complex. Between two people it's tough enough, but with three it becomes exponential. Almost always, things work differently than you think they will in one particular or another. With a vee, you really just have two two person relationships, so it's not *quite* as unpredictable. But a three-person marriage, no matter who's having sex with whom, is a triad. Staying flexible seems like the best way to ensure success. Note that in the thread above the existing couple has already been through a couple of permutations, from a vee to a triad and from casual to serious. If they'd started out thinking that the way they'd begun was the way it had to stay, there'd be one or more broken hearts between the three of them by now.

When you start out saying I want this sort of naturally complex, unpredictable relationship and it needs to be *precisely* this way, people wince. Because you *might* get lucky, but you're more likely heading for an explosion. Knowing what you want isn't enough, because everyone can start on the same page and then discover that things have shifted. If only one structure is acceptable to you, and the threeway-love you find doesn't end up fitting that structure, what can you do but end it? But by the time real bonds of love have been established, it's often not so easy to just pull the plug.

That's why I was so appreciative of the fact that you guys recognized that your new person might become a lover, emotionally and/or sexually, to one of you but not necessarily to both. I think that is a type of flexibility that is absolutely crucial to actively seeking a new partner as a couple. Technically one could say that, polygamous marriage goal or not, the fact that you two don't require your third to love you both the same means you're not "true" unicorn hunters, and it may well be that you're getting flack because of the poor performance of people who are after something very similar but more rigid than what you're after. Clearly there are some things you're not willing to bend on, but I would encourage you to hang on to that flexibility to the extent that you can -- my guess is that it will serve you well.

The other major point of concern, aside from the need for flexibility in complex scenarios, are the imbalances inherent whenever a new person joins a long-established couple (for this I can draw more on my own experience, in addition to stories). That imbalance is the reason I pretty much always share that couple-dating article I posted previously with anyone in a situation remotely similar to yours.

As I described above, a large source of potential imbalance comes from the tendency of an unattached person who wants to join a couple to be younger and/or less experienced. I won't rehash that point, but you can see how someone in that position could end up accepting things that make them feel used without knowing that they're not respecting their own boundaries. So, I would encourage you to be wary of anyone who's more than a couple of years younger than you, who hasn't dated much, or who just gives off an aura of being a bit naive.

Setting the question of age/experience aside, it's just easy, generally, to find yourself a little cowed by a relationship that's existed for a long time when you're trying to become a part of it. Two people who have been building a partnership together for many years have their own rituals, their own private language, that forms a sort of wall that can take years for an outsider to scale, even when the couple is trying to let the person in. There's just so much history there, so many compromises that they've devised to fit them perfectly. How does the new person find a place of comfort for their own unique ways of doing things without feeling like there's either no space for them or like they're breaking apart the things the couple has already built?

These are huge challenges for the new person which the couple may naturally be blind to, the way a fish isn't actively aware of water. It takes a very sensitive awareness of what the new person is going through and a willingness to bend and accept changes to the existing relationship beyond what you may have initially anticipated to truly build a place where the new person is an insider. I would encourage you to make peace with the idea that if you find what you want, your lives together will never be quite the same. Like having a kid, but moreso even. You will be building something new, just like you built a new life when the two of you first embarked on the journey of marriage. I think a lot of unicorn-hunting horror stories come about because couples didn't realize this fact and freaked out when they saw their relationship changing to accommodate a whole new human being. I see you've acknowledged above that you will need to work on the marriage and that it will be complex, and I think that's an excellent place to be starting from.

Phew! Long post is long.

I hope you'll keep posting and let us know how it goes, the good and the bad. Again, I know you feel like you've gotten a poor reception here, but none of us are so petty that we'd waste all these words if we weren't genuinely trying to help. For myself at least, I can promise that I'll keep an open mind, try to help you with the hard stuff and celebrate your successes with you. You can always post in big letters at the top of a potential blog "we will not discuss the feasibility of the premise of unicorn hunting" if you're worried that any attempt to talk about how things are going wil just get derailed by this hot topic.
__________________
Me, 30ish bi female, been doing solo poly for roughly 5 years. Gia, Clay, and Pike, my partners. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler.

Last edited by AnnabelMore; 11-14-2011 at 03:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
polygamy, triad, unicorn, unicorns

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:58 AM.