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  #21  
Old 11-06-2011, 07:09 AM
UnwittinglyPoly UnwittinglyPoly is offline
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OldGuy, I do see what you're saying. If a relationship is healthy, it's healthy. However, I would argue that most monogamous relationships, even healthy ones, are founded on a mutual, generally unspoken understanding that jealousy, insecurity, etc. are in fact there. In healthy relationships those things just don't get triggered, so it seems like they don't exist. But they are in fact still fundamentally there. Maybe this is a discussion for another thread, I've been considering starting one on jealousy and insecurity.

And by the way, the things you listed that indicate a lack of emotional maturity...personally, I would say those things indicate the opposite.
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  #22  
Old 11-06-2011, 07:33 AM
OldGuy OldGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnwittinglyPoly View Post
OldGuy, I do see what you're saying. If a relationship is healthy, it's healthy. However, I would argue that most monogamous relationships, even healthy ones, are founded on a mutual, generally unspoken understanding that jealousy, insecurity, etc. are in fact there. In healthy relationships those things just don't get triggered, so it seems like they don't exist. But they are in fact still fundamentally there. Maybe this is a discussion for another thread, I've been considering starting one on jealousy and insecurity.

And by the way, the things you listed that indicate a lack of emotional maturity...personally, I would say those things indicate the opposite.
I'd be interested in reading that thread.

I don't believe that I am emotionally mature. You're probably the first person to suggest that. I don't have much of an ego, so I don't have any pride or confidence (or lack of confidence). You take the good with the bad.
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  #23  
Old 11-06-2011, 04:55 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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UnwittinglyPoly obviously has a bias against monogamy and feels that any monogamous relationship is fear-based and unhealthy. Gah!

Look, any relationship is as healthy as the people in it. Neither polyamory nor monogamy is superior to the other - it's all about the people involved and how well they can relate to, nurture, support, and care about each other within whatever boundaries or structure for their relationships they so choose.

About jealousy... I have always been monogamous until last year. I never considered myself very jealous. Sure, I experience it from time to time, but it'd never been an all-consuming thing for me, nor ever a big factor in any of my relationships. Jealousy is not a requirement or specific trait of monogamous relationships. Why have I always considered myself less jealous than most people I knew or came into contact with? Because I am loyal andjust... trust them. So the possibility of being jealous never came up much, even in my turbulent 20s, because whenever I commit to someone, I just figure they are as loyal to me as I am to them. I don't usually doubt the people I am deeply involved with. Before that commitment, I will have my doubts but I very much see my relationships as partnerships. So now that I have embraced polyamory, whatever I commit to, I still have this faith in the people I commit to. When jealousy does arise for me I know it's usually based on insecurities I have about me, and not usually about the actions of someone I'm devoted to.

How I operate in relationships has nothing to do with whether my relationships are poly or mono, and everything to do with who I am. I am still me in all my relationships.
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Last edited by nycindie; 11-07-2011 at 04:54 AM.
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  #24  
Old 11-07-2011, 01:56 AM
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SourGirl SourGirl is offline
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I kinda dream of this perfect world, with sparkles (not.) and rainbows ( not) where we just enjoy the people, and the relationship designation, or label comes from a natural way of being, rather then a preconcieved notion going in.

'Oh look honey ! We`ve been together 4 years,..I can`t be bothered to date. You can`t either ? Guess that makes us currently monogamous, neat-o!'

' Hey baby,..we never stopped dating. Kinda funny eh ? We both enjoy meeting new people, so why stop ? Guess we`re open/poly !'

Yeah I know, pipe-dream. Still, it`s fun to think of once in awhile !
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  #25  
Old 11-07-2011, 11:22 PM
OldGuy OldGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by SourGirl View Post
I kinda dream of this perfect world, with sparkles (not.) and rainbows ( not) where we just enjoy the people, and the relationship designation, or label comes from a natural way of being, rather then a preconcieved notion going in.

'Oh look honey ! We`ve been together 4 years,..I can`t be bothered to date. You can`t either ? Guess that makes us currently monogamous, neat-o!'

' Hey baby,..we never stopped dating. Kinda funny eh ? We both enjoy meeting new people, so why stop ? Guess we`re open/poly !'

Yeah I know, pipe-dream. Still, it`s fun to think of once in awhile !
"Freeform relationships."

Maybe in a few centuries.
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  #26  
Old 09-17-2013, 06:26 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default I know exactly what your talking about

and to be honest, I have never gotten that feeling from activist LGBT people or LGBT people in general. They hold pride events and the certainly are proud to be who they are, but in no way do they have that attitude of "more evolved" and "more enlightened" and superior in any way, that is definitely a poly thing.

Religions/spiritual groups as well as the some Atheists are the only other groups that tend to have these comical attitudes.

But even then, of those four groups and the 25%-35% of them that believe they are superior (and it rarely is more than 1/4 of them it is just that they are often the most vocal so it only appears to be more) out of that 25-35% it is only a very small minority of the of the high horsers that really offend me.

And to be honest, it does seem to be phenomena restricted to polymamory, but I don't want to knock poly because of the few bad apples so I won't get into the ugly specifics but rather just mentions it generally. I call them the mind fuckers, the ones who jargon that is so interchangeable with normal everyday speech that it one wouldn't pick up on it unless you were one of the mind fuckers.

the easiest way to describe it is in the Jack London Story "jerry of the islands"

It's one of the least know series by the author and it is written somewhat from the perspective of a dog. Somewhere in the book he mentions how a dog doesn't understand english per se, but they can tell when their owner is talking about them.

It's a lot like the jargon that the offenders use, except the difference is that a dog has an owner and a master, the poly jack asses do not, it is just their ego and sic need of the typical male pathological disease which is the need to exert control over others against their will, it is the exact same sickness of rape culture. Consent doesn't give them the feel of power they get when there is nothing that the victim can do it about.

It's the exactly mentality that dinged heart alludes to with the "wet nose"

The only people that I cannot tolerate nor respect are the ones who continue to do so simply because they can, they will violate those who are defenseless and honestly do not stop until you force them to, which can and does get ugly, in the 1700s it was known as tyranny

and yes it is a problem

Last edited by Dirtclustit; 09-17-2013 at 06:29 PM.
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  #27  
Old 09-17-2013, 10:34 PM
Josie Josie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnwittinglyPoly View Post
OldGuy, I do see what you're saying. If a relationship is healthy, it's healthy. However, I would argue that most monogamous relationships, even healthy ones, are founded on a mutual, generally unspoken understanding that jealousy, insecurity, etc. are in fact there. In healthy relationships those things just don't get triggered, so it seems like they don't exist. But they are in fact still fundamentally there. Maybe this is a discussion for another thread, I've been considering starting one on jealousy and insecurity.

And by the way, the things you listed that indicate a lack of emotional maturity...personally, I would say those things indicate the opposite.
I disagree with this. What I think leads to a lot of this prejudice is that what are generally known as 'poly principles' are things that tend to make healthy relationships. You know: communicate, work though your emotions, try to be more objective and not let your own insecurities get in the way too much, etc.

The problem is, that whilst these are principles that are very strongly associated with poly, they are not Just poly ideals. They are the things that make any healthy relationship/individual. They exist outside polyamory and many mono couples practice them, many mono couples learn about them in couples therapy, etc..

So, I think, the reason that poly people seem to be more healthy and well adjusted is because these ideals are more firmly taught and then applied in 'poly society'. Poly people don't automatically adhere to these ideals or practice them, if they did, the Poly Relationships section of this forum would probably have a lot less poly people asking for advice.

Personally, I think, if people were taught more about these sorts of general relationship principles early on, then there wouldn't be so much poly people vs mono people, but more ignorant people vs people who are happy to learn and generally expand their knowledge.

People ask me about poly a lot, and a lot of the mono people that I have talked to have then taken on some of the general ideals and used them to make their relationship work. Some of them already practised all of those ideals in their mono relationships. Several poly people I've come across, don't use any of those ideals, don't communicate at all and then end up with relationship shambles.

It's not the relationship style, it's the people involved, how they go about relationships, and, often, how they've been taught to go about relationships.
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  #28  
Old 09-17-2013, 11:38 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtclustit View Post
and to be honest, I have never gotten that feeling from activist LGBT people or LGBT people in general. They hold pride events and the certainly are proud to be who they are, but in no way do they have that attitude of "more evolved" and "more enlightened" and superior in any way, that is definitely a poly thing.

Religions/spiritual groups as well as the some Atheists are the only other groups that tend to have these comical attitudes.

But even then, of those four groups and the 25%-35% of them that believe they are superior (and it rarely is more than 1/4 of them it is just that they are often the most vocal so it only appears to be more) out of that 25-35% it is only a very small minority of the of the high horsers that really offend me.

And to be honest, it does seem to be phenomena restricted to polymamory, but I don't want to knock poly because of the few bad apples so I won't get into the ugly specifics but rather just mentions it generally. I call them the mind fuckers, the ones who jargon that is so interchangeable with normal everyday speech that it one wouldn't pick up on it unless you were one of the mind fuckers.

the easiest way to describe it is in the Jack London Story "jerry of the islands"

It's one of the least know series by the author and it is written somewhat from the perspective of a dog. Somewhere in the book he mentions how a dog doesn't understand english per se, but they can tell when their owner is talking about them.

It's a lot like the jargon that the offenders use, except the difference is that a dog has an owner and a master, the poly jack asses do not, it is just their ego and sic need of the typical male pathological disease which is the need to exert control over others against their will, it is the exact same sickness of rape culture. Consent doesn't give them the feel of power they get when there is nothing that the victim can do it about.

It's the exactly mentality that dinged heart alludes to with the "wet nose"

The only people that I cannot tolerate nor respect are the ones who continue to do so simply because they can, they will violate those who are defenseless and honestly do not stop until you force them to, which can and does get ugly, in the 1700s it was known as tyranny

and yes it is a problem
You have been told before by other mods. Stop restoring ancient threads. If its a topic thats interests you start a new topic and reference the old one for point of reference.



Thanks
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  #29  
Old 09-18-2013, 10:12 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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When I first started learning about poly, I came across lots of posts, articles, and people with superior attitudes about it. Some polyfolk (esp. the ones with big egos) insisted on pontificating about how poly is more evolved than monogamy. The people who say these things can get quite abrasive and defensive while looking down their noses at monogamous relationships with a holier-than-thou attitude. Ugh.

The generalizations paint all monogamous relationships as super fucked-up, less evolved, and all about ownership -- but there are plenty of healthy, enlivening, mutually nurturing, extremely loving monogamous relationships out there. It is not automatic that the individuality, autonomy, and agency of each person in a mono couple is not appreciated and encouraged, without codependency or possessiveness. Popular culture certainly encourages the idea of ownership (just listen to a few pop songs for that), but actual experiences vary hugely from that view.

What makes a healthy relationship? Respect, caring, love, affection, honesty, etc. Both mono and poly relationships can have all the elements that make relationships healthy. Poly people attempt to cultivate more than one loving and healthy relationship, and therefore, there are challenges in keeping our "heads above water," so to speak. While the challenges of polyamorous relationships differ from monogamous ones, that fact doesn't make them more evolved. Really, mono and poly relationships all have many of the same goals, such as (for a start) to nurture and support the ones we love, or to build lives together.

I can't stand when polyfolk put down monogamy as inferior. To do so is very narrow-minded. I avoid people like that. Besides, some of the most fucked-up, damaging relationships I've seen were non-monogamous ones.

- - - - -


PS - I don't think it's fair to scold anyone specifically for posting to an old thread -- especially when it is simply a general/philosophical discussion. In fact, Dirtclustit's post prompted Josie and me to add our comments, so it would seem obvious that the thread still has relevance! It's less than two years old - that is hardly "ancient!" If a new post is directed to a particular person that hasn't been here in a few years, that is a bit odd, but not a horrible thing to do. For the three years I've been a member here, we've always been encouraged by mods to do a search first and post to an existing topic before starting a new thread.

There is nothing in the User Guidelines prohibiting posting to old threads. I sincerely hope that doesn't change.

.
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Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me. ~Bryan Ferry
"Love is that condition in which another person's happiness is essential to your own." ~Robert Heinlein

Last edited by nycindie; 09-18-2013 at 07:14 PM.
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  #30  
Old 09-19-2013, 02:15 AM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Dirtclustit dug up a 2 year old dead thread.
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