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  #11  
Old 11-02-2009, 11:52 PM
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Legion Legion is offline
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ah, NightDragon. I am sorry to hear you are so distraught. First I would like to say, though I don't know if you will be able to hear it from where you are:

This too, shall pass.

In times of adversity and pain we forget that life is essentially good. If nothing else, remember to be grateful for what you have, be it Dragonfly, limbs/lungs/lymphatic systems that work, &c. Everything has a way of working out in the end.

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Originally Posted by NightDragon View Post
...I have recently discovered that I am controlling and have major depression issues...made me codependent.
...How did I fail? Did I fail as a husband that cause a void in her heart that DB was able to fill? Did I fail as a human being?
You have not failed anything. From a Kathy Labriola (Full Article: "Managing Jealousy in Open Relationships"
:
(monogamous)Core Beliefs:
1. If my partner really loved me, (s)he wouldnít have any desire for a sexual relationship with anyone else.
2. If my partner were happy with me, and if I were a good partner/spouse/lover/etc., my partner would be so satisfied that (s)he wouldnít want to get involved with anyone else.

It sounds like you are throwing one or both of these core beliefs into your doubting.

I think LR has some great advice. Give it some time, cool off, get your head on.

Perception = Reality. Own it! Don't let your happiness get in the way of your happiness... by that I mean think of a child at a birthday party. It's a party, right? But what ends up eventually happening? Tears, arguments, frustrations. But it's certainly not for a lack of cake! Love = Cake Unlimited, we just have to manage it right, look at it right, appreciate it.
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  #12  
Old 11-03-2009, 12:16 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Thanks Legion.

I try. I hope it comes across as caring (which is how I feel when I write it) and not judgmental, sarcastic, snide or whatever (because that isn't how I feel when I write).

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  #13  
Old 11-03-2009, 12:30 AM
NightDragon NightDragon is offline
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Ok. First to answer some of LR's questions.

1: Why are you and he "waiting to hear DF's decision"?
She stated she no longer knows how she feels. She says she knows she loves me, but doesn't know if she can still be with me. She says she doesn't know if she does still or ever was in love with DB. She says she needs to decide what she needs to do for her. And I understand that and respect that!

2: Did one of you give her an ultimatum?
I did last night after she got home from talking to DB. The reason I did was because I feel I can no longer trust him in this relationship. He promissed me that if mine and DF's relationship looked like it was going to blow up that he would AT LEAST back away so DF and I can make our relationship healthy again. Instead, last night when she told him that she didn't know what she was going to do, with me, he didn't say what he promised he would say. I have felt for a while that he is just waiting for DF and I's relationship to explode so he can come along and pick up the pieces and be with her just himself. So with the fact that he did not keep his promise I feel that if he was to stay in the relationship (If there still is one) that he will try to undermine it and sabatoge it. So when she told me that he wasn't going to back off or away, I felt betrayed and told her I can not be in this relationship if he is apart of it.

3: If so-who?
I did.

4: How is the fact that he's doing the same thing as you are making him untrustable?
Because he gave me his word that he would at least back off to let me and DF "fix" our relationship. How can our "V" be healthy if he can't back off for the "core relationship" can be healthy?

You are quite possibly right! I probably am being a drama queen. I think HMA and Violet would laugh at that since they know what I look like. lol

I do understand that all 3 of us are/were in this. I understand that people make mistakes. But this is the second time he has not backed away when me and DF have had troubles. The first time, so I'm told, is he went to a friend of all of ours and asked if he should walk away. I honestly don't know if I believe that. Because he wasn't the one that said it, the friend did, and when the friend did, DB's body language was very surprised at first and quickly went to the "oh yeah, that's right, yeah".

I know she loves me. There was times she didn't and she has omitted that. I know that just because she loves him it doesn't mean that she doesn't love me. But I'm afraid that because she does love him that she will naturally fall out of love with me. And which I know could happen regardless if he was in this or not. But he hasn't kept his word to let me and DF make our relationship healthy again.

Yes I do have a problem with her being "IN" love with him or anyone for that matter. I know she can't "control" her emotions. Which is why I asked for help. Which is why I need to know how to come to terms and deal with her being "IN" love with someone else. For a lack of a better term, HOW DO I FIX ME! Apparently "fix" is a negative term, but I can't think of a better one right now.

Legion... Yeah I heard it. LOL

I don't believe that if she really loved me she wouldn't want to have a relationship sexual or romantic with someone else. I feel that if I was a good husband then she wouldn't need that relationship to make her complete and completely happy.

I hope this shines some light on how I'm feeling and thinking right now.

She just got back so I'm gonna get off here.

Thank you all again for your help and support!!!!!!!!
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  #14  
Old 11-03-2009, 01:08 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Oh Dear....


Well-I don't have the ability to make a "final outcome" conclusion on his actions without hearing from him.

I DO know-that I fell in love with GreenGecko years ago.
I know that Maca struggled(s) with the same types of concerns you are because of it.

More importantly I know that falling in love with GreenGecko didn't cause me in ANYWAY to fall out of love with Maca at ANY POINT. In fact-if GreenGecko had agreed to stepback "if the marriage relationship between Maca and I was on the rocks" I would be divorced from Maca right now.
Seriously.

That sounds nuts I'm sure-but it's the GODS HONEST TRUTH (whether you believe in a God or not I presume you can grasp I'm trying to show the DEPTH of truth there).

If I hadn't had Gecko backing me up, keeping me strong and reassuring me of his love there is NO WAY I could have possibly managed to hold it together through Maca's drama. I love him-I always have (since I was 13 years old actually) and I always will. BUT I'm not a strong enough person to survive the emotional beating I get when dealing with his insecurities, fears and issues.

So if Maca had enforced the rule you did-he would have ended up divorced. But what he's found is that by allowing me my love for and from GreenGecko-he gets MORE love-because I have more to give him. he has more sex (which is a big deal to him) because I am emotionally "safe, secure and satisfied" and our relationship flourishes because I can fully and honestly be my strongest, truest most honest self.

Obviously I don't know any of you. I only know that when people starting making ultimatums-they generally find themselves hurt by them.... Just not a good practice imo.

If you note that he isn't "following" a rule-then maybe the better solution would be (have been) to follow up with "has something changed in the dynamic of our relationship that requires a change in rules becuase I see that you are finding yourself unable to stick to the rules."

Relationships are organic someone said on here early (I think it was rolypoly).

I think that is sort of what I'm hearing as a problem in your situation. You are upset because the relationship grew and therefore changed and you weren't expecting or wanting that.
But the nature of LIFE AND RELATIONSHIPS is that they continue to change. Always. We are creatures of change. Every single day parts of who we are die off and new and different parts are born. We are always changing. Who was are is never the same from one day to the next.

So if YOU love her and TRULY want what is best for your marriage-then you need to really make some peace with the reality that she is an individual FIRST and your wife second. Not your wife first and an individual second.

THEN you also need to accept that about yourself and about any other person who may or may not be involved in our dynamic.

Once you do that you need to identify if where you are in your life and who you are allows for you to love her AND be with her, NO MATTER WHO SHE BECOMES.

If Maca committed murder-I would be heartbroken-but I love him NO MATTER WHO HE BECOMES and while I WOULD help prosecute him and send him to just punishment-I would not divorce him as marriage is the symbol I give to show my commitment to loving him no matter what.
.......
.......
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  #15  
Old 11-03-2009, 01:09 AM
HappiestManAlive HappiestManAlive is offline
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I hope it aall works out man, I hope our talk this afternoon helped. We're going out for a drink tonight no matter what.
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  #16  
Old 11-03-2009, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightDragon View Post
I probably am being a drama queen. I think HMA and Violet would laugh at that since they know what I look like. lol
Yes. Yes we would. And I actually did lol - for real - when I read that. Seriously.

Quote:
I hope this shines some light on how I'm feeling and thinking right now.

She just got back so I'm gonna get off here.

Thank you all again for your help and support!!!!!!!!
My thoughts are with you!
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  #17  
Old 11-03-2009, 01:12 AM
Mark1npt Mark1npt is offline
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ND......hang in there...our "V" has been where you guys are......so far we've hung on and are slowly progressing along. There's often a very slim line between a great "V" and utter distruction of three very good people/lives. I learned the hard way, ultimatums don't work. They are destructive for everyone. Just one of many mistakes I've made.
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  #18  
Old 11-03-2009, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I DO know-that I fell in love with GreenGecko years ago.
I know that Maca struggled(s) with the same types of concerns you are because of it.

More importantly I know that falling in love with GreenGecko didn't cause me in ANYWAY to fall out of love with Maca at ANY POINT. In fact-if GreenGecko had agreed to stepback "if the marriage relationship between Maca and I was on the rocks" I would be divorced from Maca right now.
Seriously.

That sounds nuts I'm sure-but it's the GODS HONEST TRUTH (whether you believe in a God or not I presume you can grasp I'm trying to show the DEPTH of truth there).

If I hadn't had Gecko backing me up, keeping me strong and reassuring me of his love there is NO WAY I could have possibly managed to hold it together through Maca's drama. I love him-I always have (since I was 13 years old actually) and I always will. BUT I'm not a strong enough person to survive the emotional beating I get when dealing with his insecurities, fears and issues.

So if Maca had enforced the rule you did-he would have ended up divorced. But what he's found is that by allowing me my love for and from GreenGecko-he gets MORE love-because I have more to give him. he has more sex (which is a big deal to him) because I am emotionally "safe, secure and satisfied" and our relationship flourishes because I can fully and honestly be my strongest, truest most honest self.
Even though what was between HMA, Anne, and I isn't there anymore, I'm still really interested in learning more about myself, and grasping poly relationships, just in case. Lol I'm curious to understand your mindset here. I think I'm in much the same place – or was – as NightDragon either is, or was. Meh. You get what I mean.

If Anne hadn't backed off when HMA and I were going through a rough spot, and HMA had just tried to assure me that he didn't fall out of love with me, and leaned on Anne for support without respecting what I was going through – HMA would have found himself single. Or, rather, with only one girlfriend. I think it can go both ways. Someone like you, and possibly DF, couldn't see how pulling away from one love to work on another would work. Having HMA lean on someone else he LOVED while “dealing with my drama” would set off a cycle of insecurity I just flat wouldn't be able to deal with. The root issues that would bring up of fear and pain would be far too much for me to bear. I guess it's a fundamental difference between “people like you” and “people like me”. I would be devestated – but I'd have to leave.

Quote:
You are upset because the relationship grew and therefore changed and you weren't expecting or wanting that.
But the nature of LIFE AND RELATIONSHIPS is that they continue to change. Always. We are creatures of change. Every single day parts of who we are die off and new and different parts are born. We are always changing. Who was are is never the same from one day to the next.

So if YOU love her and TRULY want what is best for your marriage-then you need to really make some peace with the reality that she is an individual FIRST and your wife second. Not your wife first and an individual second.

THEN you also need to accept that about yourself and about any other person who may or may not be involved in our dynamic.
Another place I see a fundamental difference. This statement is scary to me. I can understand HMA being my fiance second and an individual first – but I guess, I've learned that I can't handle not being primary. No way, no how. I'm trying to get my head around it, but it's just not gonna happen as far as I can see. lol The problem that happens, at least with me, is that say HMA and Anne grew closer and I kind of became either truly equal, or less than that. I couldn't handle it. I would drop an ultimatum too – either Anne goes, or I do. And I'd be damn solid in that. When you're not ready, you're not ready. I personally kind of think that if a REALLY SERIOUSLY poly person is with someone who is poly, but knows they will have insecurities – that the more poly person needs to be respectful. It's easier to slow something down than to force someone to speed things up, in my experience. I'm trying to understand why it sounds like there can be no compromise – you can't ask someone to just SLOW DOWN? Not stop, just um … put on the breaks and hit pause for a minute so everyone can get their heads together? That doesn't sound fair...

I dunno. I'm still trying to understand my feelings on the matter. I won't hijack ND's thread for it, lol. Maybe I should start one of my own to understand better. Your outlook has just been so helpful to me LR, I really want to try to understand.
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  #19  
Old 11-03-2009, 01:43 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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[QUOTE=violet;10929]
If Anne hadn't backed off when HMA and I were going through a rough spot, and HMA had just tried to assure me that he didn't fall out of love with me, and leaned on Anne for support without respecting what I was going through – HMA would have found himself single. Or, rather, with only one girlfriend. I think it can go both ways. Someone like you, and possibly DF, couldn't see how pulling away from one love to work on another would work. Having HMA lean on someone else he LOVED while “dealing with my drama” would set off a cycle of insecurity I just flat wouldn't be able to deal with. The root issues that would bring up of fear and pain would be far too much for me to bear. I guess it's a fundamental difference between “people like you” and “people like me”. I would be devestated – but I'd have to leave.

[/yQUOTE]

I hear what you say.And I understand, because Maca did go off the deep end and he did leave. Got an apartment the works.

BUT that doesn't change the reality-those insecurities are HIS issues-not mine and HE is fully responsible for them, not me. I can love him, I can support him. But when you are stuck in an insecurity-you can not offer anyone else support, which means when he's caught up in his drama-he's NOT MY PARTNER. He's my JOB..

If I have to take care of him-I have to be able to rejuvenate SOMEWHERE, SOMEHOW. And he can't do it-because he's not even able to take care of himself-thus why those emotions are in control.

SO-the only RIGHT thing to do is to understand that when WE as people are not ok and can't offer our full, loving selves to another-particularly someone who we share a joint responsibility to care for one another with (like husband and wife do) then we MUST accept that they MUST continue to be cared for while supporting us through our "valley of the shadow of death" so to speak.
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Old 11-03-2009, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by violet View Post
Another place I see a fundamental difference. This statement is scary to me. I can understand HMA being my fiance second and an individual first – but I guess, I've learned that I can't handle not being primary. No way, no how. I'm trying to get my head around it, but it's just not gonna happen as far as I can see. lol The problem that happens, at least with me, is that say HMA and Anne grew closer and I kind of became either truly equal, or less than that. I couldn't handle it. I would drop an ultimatum too – either Anne goes, or I do. And I'd be damn solid in that. When you're not ready, you're not ready. I personally kind of think that if a REALLY SERIOUSLY poly person is with someone who is poly, but knows they will have insecurities – that the more poly person needs to be respectful. It's easier to slow something down than to force someone to speed things up, in my experience. I'm trying to understand why it sounds like there can be no compromise – you can't ask someone to just SLOW DOWN? Not stop, just um … put on the breaks and hit pause for a minute so everyone can get their heads together? That doesn't sound fair...
Thoughts in random order--

1. Ultimatums are childish.

If a person has an issue-(insecurity or some specific thing they can not handle in a relationship) and that thing pops up. They have the RIGHT to ask the other person-is this something you NEED because I can't live with this **pick your term**. But when you make an ultimatum you are choosing to make the other person responsible for YOUR issue. That's childish. If you have an issue-it's YOUR issue to deal with.

I have needs/issues. Sure-if Maca chooses to get a girlfriend in the 16-19 year old category-I will leave. Because I inherently believe it is wrong. But I would still love him, we would still raise our kids as friends. I just can't sleep with a 30+ year old man who is having sex with a person I deem a child. BUT I would never say "her or me". Because THAT is making HIM take responsibility for MY terms. They are my terms, I take responsibility and ownership for them and if that situation comes up-I will just gently and kindly redesign our relationship to a more "proper fit" for my well-being.



2. Yes you can always ask-but you can't demand. Relationships between adults are based on the assumption that we are equals and as such no one person has a right to DEMAND anything from another.

3. How do you know it's easier to "slow down"? We have no way of knowing that OUR needs are EASIER or HARDER than someone else's. We are incapable of knowing the depth of someone else's needs-one of the weak points in our brains abilities. It's all perspective and in my experience when a person starts thinking that their perspective is "more right" then someone else's -the relationship is already doomed so the perspectives themselves become arbitrary.

4. I created a whole thread on the fact that insecure people need to stop acting like martyrs and start recognising that they are fully and completely responsible for their insecurities, all actions resulting from those insecurities AND the pain and damage they do to others on account of those actions. Yes-it is fair to ask someone IF they can make a compromise for your benefit.
BUT that has to be done side by side with the knowledge and acceptance that the answer may be no.
No one-absolutely no one should EVER compromise their TRUE self for another person. There are enough people in the world that there is no reason to do that. Loving someone does NOT mean that two people belong together as a couple. I have plenty of exboyfriends turned friends to prove that sometimes someone you love isn't a good "FIT" for you.

I'm the "more poly" person (one would think) because I asked for the poly dynamic to be added to our marriage. BUT that doesn't mean that my needs are more easily controlled or manipulated than Maca's. Some are, some are not.

I CAN (and did) agree to not adding anyone new. But I could not agree to "slow down" with GG. The reality is that the love was already there and he already lives with us. The relationship is already established and there is no "backing out" to make Maca more comfortable. I did agree not to kiss or make out with him in front of Maca for now because he's "getting used to it" BUT I can't (didnt and won't) promise "I just won't kiss him because it makes you uncomfortable" AND his request also demands that he allow me "private time" to be ABLE to be "me" in my other relationship that isn't "in his face". If he doesn't take responsbiilty to ensure my private time-then he will see it.

It's called compromise-yes his feeling matter and are VERY important and need tended. So are mine-JUST as important and in need of tending. No "one" is more important than the other just because one person is poly and one is less so or not....

That's like saying RP's feelings aren't priority because Mono is well.. mono.

No one here would say that-it's ridiculous.

EACH person's feelings ARE equally important.

I will put the disclaimer in that the above sentence I am presuming that we are talking about fully equal responsibility in the family. I agree with Mono that people who are less involved in the family have less of a say so. But that isn't the topic here.
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