Reflections of a Liar

[redpepper]

Thanks for filling us in Veganchick. As I said before, I think this was a learning curve and really its a matter of forgiving, using what you've learned and having a good laugh and getting about moving forward.

I realize that that is super difficult and seems near impossible at the moment... Good luck.

(I would like to suggest having this moved to the blog section... that way you can write and the responses will be limited to what you allow... I have suggested this to Podunk also for his thread)

[Anneintherain]

Originally Posted by nycindie

Perhaps the possibility of your having a deeper emotional connection with someone else, as in polyamory, hit him harder than he expected and feels like a threat to him in some way.

I think she might be somewhat accurate about that, as Podunk's last post about how what you felt about Bob was focused on "She thought I'd be HAPPY knowing she felt just as thrilled about him as she feels about me?!?!?!" Pretty much seems as he could be very threatened about you developing a connection that you'd compare with your primary relationship. Certainly you could tamp down your enthusiasm a bit when discussing people you hardly know, but you seemed clueless that he would be less than thrilled. I imagine it means you didn't see indications that he would prefer things start off slow or be sexual only? Maybe he didn't know until it hit him, or the problems with Paul happened. But don't beat yourself up over being genuinely surprised and happy that connections can occur like that. You thought you and Podunk were in the same place, so of course misunderstandings were going to occur if you weren't. Add that to your honesty lack about what happened with Paul, and it is not a surprise you're facing a crisis. It is actually a beautiful thing that you love Podunk so much that you assumed he would be happy for you making a connection.

I do think that in a lot of cases where transitioning from mono to poly or swinging to poly, that things have a better chance of working out if it goes slow, and this wouldn't be the first time that people thought they were open, happy, and ready, then took the plunge into a pool that was way too deep for them to navigate.

I am going to play devils advocate for a moment. Bringing condoms home to dispose of at a later date - your explanation could make sense, or you could be having your subconscious sending you some strong signals, I mean you really didn't think about them until Podunk found them? After ALL the discussion about sex that's gone on in the last week or however long it's been? In his place, I'd be livid and assume the worst.

My ex was sure we were perfect together, and he'd say and say and say it, trying to convince both of us. His subconscious sent different messages. After we separated, he wanted to date me, and my one rule was that he showed up on time. He showed up late 2/3 times. What his heart wanted and what his soul wanted were different things. Just keep looking inward and making sure you aren't sending mixed messages where your word says one thing but your actions say another.

I am glad you are taking some space physically, please take care of yourself emotionally too. One or the other of you needs to refuse to engage in conversation past 9 pm when emotions overcome common sense.

[SNeacail]

Having been the one lied to over and over again, I truly get Podunk's side of this, including the petty lashing out. BTDT. My husband would try to "explain" and to me it just sounded like a justification. I don't really have any advice, but it may be time to stop appologizing and stop trying to explain. If he asks a specific question, answer it honestly, in the simplest, breifest way possible. Hide nothing, but don't go off on long explainations and speculations as to motive. You broke boundries and you lied, your realize it was wrong, you want to fix it, "end of story". It will take a VERY LONG time to rebuild the trust.

Originally Posted by Anneintherain

Bringing condoms home to dispose of at a later date - your explanation could make sense, or you could be having your subconscious sending you some strong signals, I mean you really didn't think about them until Podunk found them? After ALL the discussion about sex that's gone on in the last week or however long it's been? In his place, I'd be livid and assume the worst.

This kind of thing sends me over the edge. We do have an episode or two of cheating and LOTS of "little white lies" in our history. The first time I found an open wrapper, my heart shattered, my first thought was he had brought someone into our home and our bed. I was devastated. When I calmed down, my mind went to more rational explainations (he will use condoms on sex toys when he is alone) and I finally asked him about it and he did answer honestly. It has happened a couple more times and still the first thought is that he is cheating again. The last time, there was only a fleating reference to cheating, but then I just got on his case for not being considerate and leaving his trash lying around. Mind you we are a year into trying to fix our marriage.

Good luck to you both!

[BlackUnicorn]

I just wish to take a break from the relationship-oriented discussion so far and point out something that you've probably realized, something glaringly obvious in your posts.

Somebody pursues you even when they've seen your post-pregnancy belly, and you are so grateful and flattered that you think this is it! Even feel obliged to service them orally (was there any reciprocative touching there?) and cater to their issues around using protection.

Really? Tons of women out there are beautiful, sexy and fulfilled (including me) and have tummies that stick out. It's just the shape some women take, and even if you're not biologically programmed to gather your food storage around the waist area, pregnancy can do that to anyone.

You are not damaged goods who should seize every opportunity of someone showing interest in you just because you fear you are not beautiful and desirable enough!

If a guy expresses interest in sexing you up, it has nothing to do with connection or even compatibility, seeing the real you or whatever. You are not hideously deformed.

It can be very damaging to self-esteem and body image if your SO expresses clearly and repeatedly that you do not represent their ideal physique. Do you believe that people chat you up for your firm boobs/nice smile/whatever, REGARDLESS them actually thinking you are not, as a package deal, that attractive? That they would choose to go out with someone who has a flatter tummy or rounder arse?

Do you have an MO where you are so grateful to a guy for showing interest in you that you feel you have to sex them up for gratitude?

[Podunk]

Originally Posted by SNeacail

Having been the one lied to over and over again, I truly get Podunk's side of this, including the petty lashing out. BTDT. My husband would try to "explain" and to me it just sounded like a justification. I don't really have any advice, but it may be time to stop appologizing and stop trying to explain. If he asks a specific question, answer it honestly, in the simplest, breifest way possible. Hide nothing, but don't go off on long explainations and speculations as to motive. You broke boundries and you lied, your realize it was wrong, you want to fix it, "end of story". It will take a VERY LONG time to rebuild the trust.

This is where I have done my own begging. Her words ALL come out as justification, regardless of the intent. I have asked her to stop trying, to just accept my anger and my hurt. She can't give me that, the attempted explanations and their re-writes just keep coming. It's too much, there are no simple words or actions that can fix this! It just makes me more and more upset. Veganchick tries to fix it. It is circular. This is not a new dynamic for us, just magnified by the current disaster.

And yes, it will take a VERY LONG time to move on from this. Until veganchick accepts that, there is no possibility of reconciling.

[veganchick]

Originally Posted by Podunk

This is where I have done my own begging. Her words ALL come out as justification, regardless of the intent. I have asked her to stop trying, to just accept my anger and my hurt. She can't give me that, the attempted explanations and their re-writes just keep coming. It's too much, there are no simple words or actions that can fix this! It just makes me more and more upset. Veganchick tries to fix it. It is circular. This is not a new dynamic for us, just magnified by the current disaster.

And yes, it will take a VERY LONG time to move on from this. Until veganchick accepts that, there is no possibility of reconciling.

You are right. I just spent 15 minutes typing a response only to realize that while apologizing it still might appear as a justification. So, I deleted it. I will probably choose to speak less as a result, as well. It is a HUGE relief to me to know that there is even a tiny bit of hope that with a lot of time/energy we could possibly reconcile. I agree that we should stop discussing.

[Magdlyn]

Originally Posted by BlackUnicorn

It can be very damaging to self-esteem and body image if your SO expresses clearly and repeatedly that you do not represent their ideal physique.

Yes, I sadly noticed that, in Podunk's thread, he felt compelled to mention how VC's body was not his ideal (even tho her figure and hair sounds hot as hell), and how thank god her ass is filling out a little as she gets older.

Isn't love based on what is inside, not the outside package? I have no idea how much Podunk talks about how VC isn't his ideal woman, looks-wise, but the fact that he brought it up on his thread, when it was rather irrelevant, makes me go, hmmm... How has this issue affected VC's self esteem?

[Minxxa]

Originally Posted by Podunk

This is where I have done my own begging. Her words ALL come out as justification, regardless of the intent. I have asked her to stop trying, to just accept my anger and my hurt. She can't give me that, the attempted explanations and their re-writes just keep coming. It's too much, there are no simple words or actions that can fix this! It just makes me more and more upset. Veganchick tries to fix it. It is circular. This is not a new dynamic for us, just magnified by the current disaster.

And yes, it will take a VERY LONG time to move on from this. Until veganchick accepts that, there is no possibility of reconciling.

Having also been in the position of trying to rebuild trust after being lied to... I totally get this. After learning about the story, all I ever wanted was for him to say "I'm sorry I lied. I panicked and then was too scared to go back and correct myself. I know how much this hurt you and I see how it would be hard to believe anything I say right now. I am going to work on myself and figure out why I did it so that I can try to come to the relationship with honesty and respect, and not react out of fear."

And then let me be a bit angry for a while, let me feel hurt for a while, and let me work through those feelings on my own.

I think the worst thing for me was when he'd expect things to bounce back to normal right away... act as if nothing was wrong. That's bullshit. I'm not going to cover up my feelings and stuff them back down to make you feel better. Plus that never works anyway because then it comes out later and usually in a not-so-productive way.

We need to be able to work through our emotions, to allow them to just be... so that we can move past them. Sometimes continuing the conversation (endlessly) keeps that from happening.

However... podunk also does actually need to work through the feelings. It can be easy to let the feelings run your thoughts, which cause more feelings, etc. etc. and you get caught up in a whirlwind that just accelerates your anger and hurt. This is not productive, though it is easy to do. The fact is that feelings come up, but we don't have to give them the gas to set a fire. We can just sit with the feeling, and see what it's doing in our bodies, and let it happen and eventually it will dissipate. It's only when we start tossing little "thought logs" on the fire that it seems to get out of control.

Originally Posted by veganchick

You are right. I just spent 15 minutes typing a response only to realize that while apologizing it still might appear as a justification. So, I deleted it. I will probably choose to speak less as a result, as well. It is a HUGE relief to me to know that there is even a tiny bit of hope that with a lot of time/energy we could possibly reconcile. I agree that we should stop discussing.

Probably a good idea. And maybe just taking some time to sit with your emotions, too. Feeling bad about hurting someone is a good thing, but only if you use that to see what happened and what was going on with you at the time. Guilt-tripping yourself endlessly won't help you as a person, or the two of you as a couple.

We are all human and we all make mistakes. If we can acknowledge our mistakes, take a good look at them, and maybe sometimes learn from them, that's about all we can expect.

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Yes, I sadly noticed that, in Podunk's thread, he felt compelled to mention how VC's body was not his ideal (even tho her figure and hair sounds hot as hell), and how thank god her ass is filling out a little as she gets older.

Isn't love based on what is inside, not the outside package? I have no idea how much Podunk talks about how VC isn't his ideal woman, looks-wise, but the fact that he brought it up on his thread, when it was rather irrelevant, makes me go, hmmm... How has this issue affected VC's self esteem?

I noticed this too, and sometimes I don't think some guys get how what they say/do can seriously affect how we feel about ourselves.

An example, my hubs loves to look at women, and I don't mind at all. But sometimes he'll see some woman and say "not all that", and I'm looking at her thinking about how much more beautiful she is than me. So my mind takes that as-- if she's not all that, what the hell am I????

Yes, this is basic self-esteem stuff, and that's what I need to fix for myself, but the point is he is not even commenting on ME, and I think most likely doesn't even know that it is causing an internal self-esteem train wreck.

Honestly I wish we all (men and women) could get away from commenting/talking about outside appearances all the damn time and focus on the stuff that really matters.

[Carma]

Sometimes I suspect Sundance is just looking for the right magic words to get me to let go and be lovey with him again. His apologies are hollow, insincere. There is no remorse. He just wants things to go back to peaceful waters for him again. He won't allow me to process my anger or my pain, or give me any space. It's all about getting past that as fast as we can. He wants to hug me, wants me to look him in the eye, SEE his love for me.

He'll decry his innocence, every chance he gets. Usually this does more harm than not. I would rather him just not say anything. His most popular MO the past few days is to tell me "I see you are really in pain. You are crumbling. You need help. You need counseling. I'll go with you, I'll support you in any way I can."

Not saying you are doing any of this!!! Just wanted to show you the liar I'M living with. Who totally won't own up to his shit.

[River]

Originally Posted by nycindie

Also, I have to say that, despite what he says about wanting poly, I keep having this sense that Podunk really prefers swinging. Perhaps the possibility of your having a deeper emotional connection with someone else, as in polyamory, hit him harder than he expected and feels like a threat to him in some way.

An interesting line of inquiry worthy of an honest look and response from Podunk.

Veganchick also seems, perhaps, to have some fear/guilt/shame around exploring deeper intimacies outside of her relationship with Podunk, which likely contributed to her fear-based lying strategy. All very understandable stuff, if that's what it is. If this fear/guilt/shame is present despite Podunk's often enthusiastic supportiveness of his wife's other intimate explorations, perhaps Podunk can helpfully empathise with it and use this empathy as a basis for furthering forgiveness. And perhaps in this light Veganchick might find some self-forgiveness as well. For moving forward and onward surely must call for both of these forgivenesses, as much as the learning and growth experiences drawn from these difficult days.

Veganchick, I sympathize with your painful and difficult situation. (I sympathize with yours, too, Podunk.)

What I so wish for the both of you is that, Veganchick, you will encourage your "shaking" rather than resisting it. I mean, really let 'er rip! Your body is attempting to discharge a lot of stress and anxiety. Shaking is one of the ways the body does that. Crying helps, too.

[I once lay down on a floor and shook intensely for at least an hour and the experience released stress and anxiety in deep and ancient layers, freeing me of much anguish.]

I wish that Podunk would be completely supportive and loving to you as you shake and/or cry, and that he will forgive and heal ... And I'd love to see you two both open your hearts to one another in this difficult time.

It is clear to me that you each love one another very much.