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  #31  
Old 10-03-2011, 09:50 PM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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I don't think there is anything wrong at all with agreeing to things like calling after dates, asking your partner to let you know if somebody they are chatting with is talking with them occasionally or frequently, if it's flirty or sexual, etc. If requests like this are made for reasons other than jealousy or fear I don't see why there is any need to examine them any closer than if I asked my husband to let me know when we ran out of milk, and then expected him to tell me when we ran out of milk if he said he would. I find it useful information to know. I feel happier when I don't open the fridge and find no milk. I don't expect that he will follow through 100% of the time, but I appreciate the times when he does. Seriously I'm bad at analogies but...

It's also OK for a person to want to be independent and autonomous. Nycindie says "But how about the possibility that her life is her own and she doesn't need to report back to you every little flirtation that happens." I do feel that she is saying her way is right therefore your way is wrong, but don't let how other people choose to do poly make you feel there is anything wrong with how you are doing it. People get to make their own agreements and design their own relationships to suit their wants and needs.

If a partner agrees to keep me in the loop willingly, then I expect to be kept in the loop. If they want to not keep me in the loop, they need to say so, and not be passive aggressive about it by telling me one thing and doing another.

I operate along your lines a lot more, I don't like surprises, I ask my husband for X, Y and Z along the lines of communication about what is going on in his relationships, if he agrees, then that's great. There have been a things he knew that he couldn't/wouldn't do and told me so, and I accept that. There have been things he has agreed to do and then failed to do. If he doesn't follow through a couple times on giving me information I've asked to be hearing from him, I realize that we need to revisit the subject and probably renegotiate. It tends to be a learning process for us both where we can figure out what is really important to the other person, and why, and it is always an interesting conversation.

In a relationship people have the right to ask for ANYTHING. They also have the right to say NO to anything. I have to say to my husband often that the only way to make agreements that will work for both of us is
"I say what I want"
"You say what you want"
"We compromise" (if we want different things that is).

Just make sure your girlfriend is doing the saying what she wants part. Does she ever say that she doesn't want to give you something you've asked for? Does she just agree to what you ask for all time without realizing that she doesn't have to, and telling you she wants something different? For us the problems have come up when the following happens.
"I say what I want"
"He agrees because it sounds reasonable, without taking the time to ponder and figure out if it's what he wants or not"
"Agreement doesn't get followed because there wasn't a meeting of the minds and necessary compromise"

No idea if that was helpful at all or not, operating on little sleep here!
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  #32  
Old 10-04-2011, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anneintherain View Post
I don't think there is anything wrong at all with agreeing to things like calling after dates, asking your partner to let you know if somebody they are chatting with is talking with them occasionally or frequently, if it's flirty or sexual, etc. . . . It's also OK for a person to want to be independent and autonomous. Nycindie says "But how about the possibility that her life is her own and she doesn't need to report back to you every little flirtation that happens." I do feel that she is saying her way is right therefore your way is wrong . . .
CERTAINLY NOT! No, no, no, not at all. Never did I assert that CC's way of doing poly is wrong and mine is right, nor would I ever mean to imply such a thing. Saying that was my intent is WAY off the mark. I asked those questions simply as a way to examine the rationale or reasons behind the rules and to offer a different perspective. Anne, I usually like your posts, but you do me a great disservice here by saying that. If the OP and his gf are happy with the way their rules are established and can work and live within them, more power to them! It seems there are some problems, however, so I offered to share what I saw in the spirit of shedding some light from someone on the outside. Any criticism I may have expressed was done so to be constructive and not to lay judgment on anyone. That is all. Please do not read anything more into my posts than that.
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Last edited by nycindie; 10-04-2011 at 01:50 AM.
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  #33  
Old 10-04-2011, 01:20 AM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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My husband got drunk and asked if i'd fucked anyone else besides my boyfriend lately.

Is this polyamory or not?
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  #34  
Old 10-04-2011, 01:41 AM
cuddlecakes cuddlecakes is offline
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Originally Posted by sagency View Post
The simple truth is that people want different levels of rules (guidelines, boundaries, whatever).
Yes, in the sense of "we want some things to be rules, while others are non-binding requests". Not in the sense that each of us desires different amounts of control.

Quote:
The alternative to making rules is being clear about what you want, what you need, and how you feel to the point where your partner can accurately predict how you would respond to a situation.
Yeah, that's more like what I want.

I was thinking about the principle of Non-Violent Communication, and how a list of "Needs" and "Requests" would be better. "Alice needs X to feel secure. Therefore, Alice requests that Bob do Y." And if Bob agrees to do that, then it's an agreement. If not, then Bob writes down his conflicting need, and they find a compromise.

That article also talks about why I don't want a laundry list of authoritarian rules with "or else!" consequences:
Quote:
Rosenberg, following the work of Walter Wink, claims that humans are essentially good, but have been burdened by the imposition, 5000 years ago, of a belief system in which we are deemed innately evil. This belief system has driven us to create domination systems, Rosenberg and Wink assert, which have had the result of fostering cultures with poor communication and widespread unhappiness.
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Originally Posted by rory View Post
1. You communicate clearly what it is you want, and what it is you need. You need to tell her and she needs to understand what you mean. ...
This is all good advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anneintherain View Post
I don't think there is anything wrong at all with agreeing to things like calling after dates, asking your partner to let you know if somebody they are chatting with is talking with them occasionally or frequently, if it's flirty or sexual, etc. If requests like this are made for reasons other than jealousy or fear
What's wrong with making the requests out of jealousy and fear? People experience fear and jealousy; doesn't make them bad people. It just means they need to communicate about their feelings and reassure each other, which is what requests like that are for. Informing the other person about what you've been up to is hardly an imposition.

Quote:
I do feel that she is saying her way is right therefore your way is wrong, but don't let how other people choose to do poly make you feel there is anything wrong with how you are doing it.
Yeah, I'm not.

Quote:
I have to say to my husband often that the only way to make agreements that will work for both of us is
"I say what I want"
"You say what you want"
"We compromise" (if we want different things that is).
Yesssss.

My girlfriend and I usually want similar things, so that works out nicely.

Quote:
Does she ever say that she doesn't want to give you something you've asked for? Does she just agree to what you ask for all time without realizing that she doesn't have to, and telling you she wants something different?
Yes, occasionally. Nope, but I'll watch for it.

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No idea if that was helpful at all or not, operating on little sleep here!
Yes, very helpful! Thanks.
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  #35  
Old 10-04-2011, 03:52 AM
Casey Casey is offline
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[QUOTE=cuddlecakes;104834]Is that just something that's been discussed verbally?

Hmm, it is more that if I did it I would expect Shannon to be a little hurt I ignored a preference. Similar to if Shannon didn't make a date night for no good reason. I would be a little hurt. Or if the wrong sort of fuel was put in my car (my "baby", Ive been working on it for a few years now).

Whereas the safe sex rule cannot be broken. If it is broken there will be dire consequences. I havent even had to specify the consequences, they would be so numerous and so terrible. Whereas Shannon has specified will get rid of me, that's the consequence I would face - no ifs or buts.
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  #36  
Old 10-04-2011, 05:33 AM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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Sorry nycindie, but from the quote I referenced and the other particular sentences below, I DID get the impression that you thought that what he's asked for from his partner seemed dysfunctional or clingy, instead of that it was OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
It seems to me you want to keep a really short leash on your gf and in ways that are somewhat unrealistic or a tad overbearing.

Your feeling hurt by her spontaneously getting together with a guy without you knowing about it beforehand is totally on YOU. She is not hurting you; she is being herself and living her life while you are choosing to feel hurt by it.

Why isn't it enough to know she's dating other people and will inform you about it if and when she is moved to do so?
I do know you like to play devil's advocate, and I think you often raise good points. I also however post based on personal experience and my own neuroses, and truth is, MY defensiveness is raised when I read things that make me feel judged. Yes that is on me!

I feel judged sometimes when I do come in contact with people who do poly along the "I'm living my life and don't have to check in with you before I do what I want" lines. Sometimes they say things that imply I am wrong, and sometimes I make myself feel like I am wrong for asking for certain behaviors from my husband when they manage to live without doing so. I don't want to let him tell me things if/when it moves him to do so. Why can't I just let him do whatever he wants and trust his intent is good, so not let myself be hurt or surprised by his actions? Well cause I'd go fucking insane! I overly identified with the OP, and took offense at the suggestion that he (I) had the goal of controlling his girlfriend (my husband) by asking for the things he has.

Seriously I dread when I have to post asking for advice, I'm not sure I can stuff my ego down enough to not let my feelings hurt by any advice you'd give Even if when I look at it objectively I may get some useful perspective from it, I like a hug and a spoonful of sugar served with hard questions! Sorry If I took it too personally.
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  #37  
Old 10-04-2011, 05:41 AM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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Originally Posted by cuddlecakes View Post

Originally Posted by Anneintherain
I don't think there is anything wrong at all with agreeing to things like calling after dates, asking your partner to let you know if somebody they are chatting with is talking with them occasionally or frequently, if it's flirty or sexual, etc. If requests like this are made for reasons other than jealousy or fear"

What's wrong with making the requests out of jealousy and fear? People experience fear and jealousy; doesn't make them bad people. It just means they need to communicate about their feelings and reassure each other, which is what requests like that are for. Informing the other person about what you've been up to is hardly an imposition.
I didn't say there were problems with making requests out of jealousy and fear (although I think there are problems with making requests out of that and expecting it to be more than a band-aid on any problem that's not going to bleed through before the week is done) I said "If requests like this are made for reasons other than jealousy or fear I don't see why there is any need to examine them any closer."

If they are made out of jealousy and fear though, I think people owe it to themselves and their partners to be working on figuring out how to improve themselves, their self esteem, their communication. Otherwise they'll be doomed to post on message boards with the same problems recurring forever, looking for advice for the rest their life!
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  #38  
Old 10-04-2011, 05:44 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Originally Posted by Anneintherain View Post
Seriously I dread when I have to post asking for advice, I'm not sure I can stuff my ego down enough to not let my feelings hurt by any advice you'd give
If I didn't have a firm grasp on the fact that I don't really know most of the people here, and that the opinions of anonymous posters on an internet forum are not something to take personally, I might feel hurt by that comment. Fortunately, I don't. I understand where you're coming from and appreciate your saying that. But please know that I adjust my answers to the questions and what my intuition tells me about the poster who asked them. I am not always a hard-ass if it seems like that's not what's needed.

Anne, I'd rather you feel comfortable posting, so I'll just avoid your threads from now on and won't answer any of yours. No need to worry now.

Honestly, I am very often tender and careful in communicating to someone, even when I'm being direct, but that never seems to get any acknowledgement around here. Maybe I should just fucking stop posting altogether, lord knows it takes up a lot of time to ponder and write these responses. Sometimes I think about someone all day, or several days, and come back to share how they've affected me and what impressions I have about their situation. I am not thoughtless or always trying to play devil's advocate. People just freak out when I say something that they don't like and they jump to the conclusion that I'm a meanie with a hard line approach. I can't tell you how many times I get private messages a few days or weeks later from the people who initially were offended by what I told them, to personally thank me because it enabled them to see something or think about something they hadn't thought of, blah-blah-blah. I do acknowledge that I can be wrong about what I see in any given situation or problem. I'm NOT coming from a place of feeling high and mighty over anyone.

Geez, it's just my opinion and, like assholes, everyone's got one, so if what I have to say doesn't resonate, no biggie, just move on. Lately all I can do is tell folks here to just picture me saying it in a firm but compassionate, soft voice, with a hand gently on your arm, looking into your eyes with concern. I'm starting to get tired of writing that. I may come off as opinionated, but I'm all about tough love, with an emphasis on the love!

I think I'll just go to bed now.
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Last edited by nycindie; 10-04-2011 at 06:06 AM.
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  #39  
Old 10-05-2011, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
If I didn't have a firm grasp on the fact that I don't really know most of the people here, and that the opinions of anonymous posters on an internet forum are not something to take personally, I might feel hurt by that comment. Fortunately, I don't. I understand where you're coming from and appreciate your saying that. But please know that I adjust my answers to the questions and what my intuition tells me about the poster who asked them. I am not always a hard-ass if it seems like that's not what's needed.

Anne, I'd rather you feel comfortable posting, so I'll just avoid your threads from now on and won't answer any of yours. No need to worry now.

Honestly, I am very often tender and careful in communicating to someone, even when I'm being direct, but that never seems to get any acknowledgement around here. Maybe I should just fucking stop posting altogether, lord knows it takes up a lot of time to ponder and write these responses. Sometimes I think about someone all day, or several days, and come back to share how they've affected me and what impressions I have about their situation. I am not thoughtless or always trying to play devil's advocate. People just freak out when I say something that they don't like and they jump to the conclusion that I'm a meanie with a hard line approach. I can't tell you how many times I get private messages a few days or weeks later from the people who initially were offended by what I told them, to personally thank me because it enabled them to see something or think about something they hadn't thought of, blah-blah-blah. I do acknowledge that I can be wrong about what I see in any given situation or problem. I'm NOT coming from a place of feeling high and mighty over anyone.

Geez, it's just my opinion and, like assholes, everyone's got one, so if what I have to say doesn't resonate, no biggie, just move on. Lately all I can do is tell folks here to just picture me saying it in a firm but compassionate, soft voice, with a hand gently on your arm, looking into your eyes with concern. I'm starting to get tired of writing that. I may come off as opinionated, but I'm all about tough love, with an emphasis on the love!

I think I'll just go to bed now.
Can I copy and paste this every time this happens to me? especially about the ass holes?
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  #40  
Old 10-05-2011, 10:52 AM
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I may come off as opinionated, but I'm all about tough love, with an emphasis on the love!
Having lived in the South, Northeast, and Northwest, I can understand how nycindie feels. The simple fact is sometimes Nyc is opinionated, and she's often direct, and some people are biased in their reactions to that. When I moved to the west coast, I had to learn how to soeak Northwestern because people out here assumed my bluntness was a sign of arrogance or assholery.

I for one appreciate Nyc's directness, but I also know her compassion caveat. New folks likely don't and probably haven't figured out that she asks tough questions because she cares.

Thanks for taking the time, Nyc.
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