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Old 10-04-2011, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
. . . subs/slaves truly enjoy being owned by their Masters/Mistresses. They need to feel taken care of, and feel free not being responsible for final decisions on everything (or anything), for one reason or another. Slaves feel safe with their contract, the chores, the enforced bedtime, etc. The structure helps them to grow and be more productive.
Sure, I can understand enjoying not having any responsibilities. That's why people find it comforting, in many ways, to be hospitalized or incarcerated. Then they don't have to think for themselves. But just how, exactly, does it help someone grow and be more productive when someone else is making decisions for them? This is what I have a hard time wrapping my brain around. It's nice when people do stuff for us, but it's generally accepted that we grow more if we learn how to do for ourselves ("give a man a fish..."). It's my belief that people are meant to be self-sufficient. We come into the world alone and die alone, after all.

Another element I wonder about. While I think it's perfectly fine to use some sort of role-playing scenario to work through psychological issues, at some point those issues need to be resolved for any personal growth to occur. Meaning, okay, time to let go and move on. After a certain point, it's just mental masturbation. As was once said to me by a healer, we aren't meant to just accept what traits we're born with or what issues we struggle with, a human's purpose is to work through them and transcend them so they stop having a hold on us (even though such issues may never go away).

When the framework that is used to address those issues revolves substantially around sex, and becomes an adopted lifestyle, there's a potential for obsession or a bit of addiction, which can keep those issues hanging around instead of getting resolved. Then the players become dependent upon this falsity for their identity and that can be very damaging, I believe. For example, let's say someone feels a lot of internal guilt, and turns to BDSM so they can get beaten and feel appropriately punished for whatever they feel guilty about. If they don't also look at their internal conflicts and resolve them, and eventually just enjoy getting off on the sensation of being beaten, they keep holding onto those feelings of guilt, and turn it into more of an intellectual exercise than a real emotion anymore. They likely will adopt a stance of "I have all this guilt inside me that I need to be punished for" and they make it a pronouncement about who they are, just so they can have pain inflicted on them again, rather than looking at something with the intent of healing it and letting it go so it doesn't have power over them. Then it becomes a dumb game and doesn't do them any good. They're stuck behind a label they've adopted. They say, "Oh, that's just who I am" instead of working through and transcending that guilt. I use guilt as an example because it can be so damaging. I don't mean to imply that this is what always happens or that everyone who's into BDSM goes into it blindly and doesn't work on their shit. I've seen this happen with other techniques, but I think the sexual element makes it more risky.

It's very tricky in any therapeutic setting to not make "revelations" we have about personal issues into labels with which we then use to identify ourselves. What scares me about BDSM is that the participants are amateurs without professional knowledge, and can put themselves in vulnerable positions where they can get hurt, physically and psychologically. If it were a guided therapy with a goal in mind, at which point the role-playing stopped because the participants had reached resolution of their issues, I'd see more value in it.

How would you really know that the person domming has any clue what is good for you, especially if they don't know you very well and are just following some standard ideas of what domming is supposed to be about? It scares me to think that there are misguided, vulnerable people out there who submit themselves to doms they don't know well, those who dominate to satisfy their egos and not necessarily to support the submissive one. I don't think it's a good idea for very young people to get into it 24/7 because it seems one would really have to know oneself extremely well before doing so.

This is how I ponder it, it's not an indictment against BDSM altogether. I will say, though, that there are many ways to get to know oneself deeply, including around sex/sexuality, just as well as any power exchange relationship. Practicing power exchange/BDSM is only one. Calling non-BDSM sex/relationships "vanilla" seems like a put-down. Non-kinksters can push past boundaries, address sex and sexuality issues, and gain deep self-knowledge in other ways.

I found a website with some well-written, illuminating articles about D/s, which are helping me to understand more about it. They are here: http://www.tiedmoments.com/. Some quotes in a few articles, which I think are relevant to this discussion:
". . . when you consider D/s as a dynamic on top of a standard relationship, it is clear that no healthy D/s relationship can exist without the proper foundation."

"Submission is about knowing who you are, and what you want. A submissive is NOT a weak person, but just the opposite. She is strong. She is strong in herself, and in the knowledge of who she is. She NEVER submits out of weakness or desperation. She submits out of strength, love, and trust."

"To the newly initiated, the D/s relationship seems about as close to perfect as one would think possible. Here we find a romance based on total dedication and neverending sexual tension and focus. The Domme is all knowing, all powerful...she can anticipate the thoughts of her sub and take him to places of which he could only dream. She is in control, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, every week of every year. Her every action is coldly calculated to further enforce her position of authority. She is an image of perfection...and D/s absorbs her life.

News flash: "Bullshit!"

. . . perhaps because many "newly-D/s'd" don't have exposure to the often concealed worlds of real lifestyle D/s people, they don't seem aware that the images they are being fed are predominantly fantasy - hype.

. . . The facts are simple: Lifestyle D/s people are just people! We all have non-D/s desires, interests, hang-ups, and vulnerabilities. No one is 'On' all the time. In real life, the phone rings, the baby cries, and our interests change.

. . . Being in the D/s lifestyle doesn't protect you from the fundamental frailties of the foundation upon which all interaction is built: ~~THE RELATIONSHIP ~~"
And here is the text of a short article by "MsRika," which I liked:
"We Are No Different

In my experience and conversations with submissive men, I find myself bothered by a line of logic used to separate D/S relationships from all others. The people with whom I speak, take the liberty of placing a greater importance on what I've been discussing as the basic foundation of ANY healthy relationship, simply because the D/s dynamic is placed on top of it. It is as if to say, since we are into this lifestyle, we are somehow nobler, more critical, and more important than others who have not chosen it. Perhaps it's human nature to want to believe ourselves better than the other guy, but it just isn't automatically so. I have heard it said that things like trust and communication are more important in D/S relationships than those that are more "vanilla". On one end of the spectrum, the argument follows the lines of, "when your life depends on it....". On the other, "you need to communicate your desires with your partner when you're into D/s".

First, let me address the arguments above. To my eyes, the former argument is geared primarily to BDSM relationships; most likely those based on scenes with people we may or may not know well (I do not include cyber here because these relationships are not directly physical enough to create a true danger above and beyond what one is capable of inflicting on oneself). Here, the use of "safe words", selection of partner, and heightened perceptiveness may well be 'life savers'. However, in a lifestyle D/s relationship based on True Submission, such an argument does not hold water. In a lifestyle D/s relationship you would not expect your partner to harm you any more because you have submitted. You do not need a "safe word" when the relationship is based on a strong standard foundation, especially if the definition of submission is finding pleasure in the happiness of the dominant. How can a submissive possibly need a safe word when his focus is on 'doing for' and anticipating the needs of the dominant?

Note: Some may argue that if the happiness of the dominant is to harm the submissive, this theory is not valid. I argue that, even in a vanilla relationship, if you are involved with a true sadist, you're in danger whether you submit or not! If your partner's idea of happiness is subjecting you to hazardous, abusive and potentially lethal situations, it's not about D/s, it's something much more serious...GET OUT!

Secondly, the latter argument, that you need to communicate better when you're into D/s, is misguided as well. As we have discussed at length above, EVERY relationship benefits from good, open communications. Being in a D/s relationship is no excuse to suddenly focus on communications...and certainly, if you're not in a D/s relationship, that's no excuse for not communicating. It may be true that people open enough to discuss D/s with their partner have already come to grips with the importance of communication, but it is not the lifestyle choice which makes this attribute as critical to the success of the relationship as it is. It is the nature of all relationships."
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Last edited by nycindie; 10-04-2011 at 11:00 PM.
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  #492  
Old 10-04-2011, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Sure, I can understand enjoying not having any responsibilities. That's why people find it comforting, in many ways, to be hospitalized or incarcerated. Then they don't have to think for themselves. But just how, exactly, does it help someone grow and be more productive when someone else is making decisions for them?
Well, say a sub comes from a badly dysfunctional family. They may have never been allowed to make a decision as a child by their parents. (This was miss pixi's situation. She was so belittled by her father that she gave up making decisions, even to the point of not having a favorite ice cream flavor. She had to say she liked chocolate chip the best, b/c that was her dad's favorite.) So, they may have no idea how to decide on anything. A good M will get to know her sub well enough to be able to discern which decision would be most healthy and satisfactory for her s. Subs are also encouraged for creativity and rewarded for improvement. The idea is not eternal dependency in all areas, but growth and strength.

miss pixi and I know a D/s couple where the sub was once a quivering pile of jelly, and now after about 10 years of this relationship, she's going for her PhD.



Quote:
Another element I wonder about. While I think it's perfectly fine to use some sort of role-playing scenario to work through psychological issues, at some point those issues need to be resolved for any personal growth to occur. Meaning, okay, time to let go and move on. After a certain point, it's just mental masturbation. As was said to me by a healer back in the 80s, we aren't meant to just accept what traits we're born with or what issues we struggle with, a human's purpose is to work through them and transcend them so they stop having a hold on us (even though such issues may never go away).
Yes, a D/s relationship can and does help with this. Of course, many subs have traditional therapy as well. But sometimes the greater intimacy of coupledom and the different kind of "therapy" D/s practice offers can aid in growth. If it impedes growth, it's not working.

Quote:
When the framework that is used to address those issues revolves substantially around sex, and becomes an adopted lifestyle, there's a potential for obsession or a bit of addiction, which can keep those issues hanging around instead of getting resolved. Then the players become dependent upon this falsity for their identity and that can be very damaging, I believe. For example, let's say someone feels a lot of internal guilt, and turns to BDSM so they can get beaten and feel appropriately punished for whatever they feel guilty about. If they don't also look at their internal conflicts and resolve them, and eventually just enjoy getting off on the sensation of being beaten, they keep holding onto those feelings of guilt, and turn it into more of an intellectual exercise than a real emotion anymore. They likely will adopt a stance of "I have all this guilt inside me that I need to be punished for" and they make it a pronouncement about who they are, just so they can have pain inflicted on them again, rather than looking at something with the intent of healing it and letting it go so it doesn't have power over them. Then it becomes a dumb game and doesn't do them any good because they're stuck behind a label they've adopted, they say, "Oh, that's just who I am" instead of working through and transcending that guilt. I use guilt as an example because it can be so damaging. I don't mean to imply that this is what always happens or that everyone who's into BDSM goes into it blindly and doesn't work on their shit.
It could be guilt. It could be, say, a rape. D/s play will allow one to relive the issues, the daddy issue above, the rape, replay it even, but with control! The sub controls the daddy play, the rape fantasy, and it helps him or her to work through it and come out the other side healed.

Quote:
I guess what scares me about BDSM is that the people participating are amateurs without the guidance of real professional knowledge, and people do put themselves in very vulnerable positions where they can get hurt, both physically and psychologically.
Yes, improper D/s play such as bondage or beating carries an element of risk and can be harmful if done wrong. That is why there are classes, books and websites galore about how to play safely, sanely and consensually. Only fools don't proceed with caution.


Quote:
How would you really know that the person Domming has any clue what is good for you, especially if they don't know you very well and are just following some standard ideas of what Domming is supposed to be about? It scares me to think that there are misguided, vulnerable people out there who submit themselves to Doms they don't know well, who are into it to satisfy their own egos and not necessarily to support the Submissive one. I don't think it's a good idea for very young people to get into it 24/7 because it seems one would really have to know oneself extremely well before doing so.
Agreed. Good D/s people do a lot of negotiating before playing.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 58, living with:
miss pixi, 37, who is dating (NRE):
Master, 32
my bf: Ginger, 61, married to:
Robin, 60 (mono)
and dating (NRE): Carla and David, married couple, early 40s
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  #493  
Old 10-05-2011, 02:50 AM
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@Indie, I agree that there is a great deal of risk involved in a D/s relationship. It is highly symbol, archetypal and powerful. When done skillfully, everyone in the relationship grows and benefits. But of course, it can also go very wrong. I've seen this happen. I see people that use it as a crutch to avoid actually growing or learning how to develop relationships. I've seen people jump into it without bothering to build a foundation or even know what they're doing/getting to. This might sound a lot like pharmaceutical commericals...Take this drug! It's awesome!.. Oh and by the way it might fry your kidneys, wither your penis or kill you....

Risk is inherent in many things we do. Driving a car, going rock climbing, operating heavy machinery. Ultimately, we have to decide if the risk is worth it. For some it will be and for others it won't. In D/s there are many ways to reduce your risk greatly.

Be clear on your intentions
Look to grow
Build a good relational foundation
Negotiate as equals
Have the proper experience/knowledge
Don't rush into anything
Stay integrated with the real/outside world and other forms of social support

I would be very slow to enter into any kind of D/s relationship. It's something I may try but if I do, I want to do it as safely as possibly. I think it can be rewarding but you are right to have some reservations about how it is sometimes done. There are a few D/s couples I know that have very unhealthy dynamics. I also know some that seem to do it pretty well. There's a whole spectrum.
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  #494  
Old 10-05-2011, 03:25 AM
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Hey Ray, thanks for posting. After I posted my last message, I went out for a bit and was thinking of you. I always enjoy your input about this stuff.
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  #495  
Old 10-05-2011, 04:13 AM
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"Calling non-BDSM sex/relationships "vanilla" seems like a put-down."

Nyc, what term would you prefer?
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The supporting cast. Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler. Dexter, Gia's lover. Helen, Eric's lover. Izzy and Nikki, Clay's partners. Liam, Eddie's husband.
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  #496  
Old 10-05-2011, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucinda View Post
Well the thing is, a lifestyle submissive needs the other person to take the leadership role. To be dominant honours the submissive person's desire to not have the responsibility of directing the relationship. To be dominant respects the submissive's very real need to have somebody to serve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Might be difficult for vanilla people to understand, but subs/slaves truly enjoy being owned by their Masters/Mistresses. They need to feel taken care of, and feel free not being responsible for final decisions on everything (or anything), for one reason or another. Slaves feel safe with their contract, the chores, the enforced bedtime, etc. The structure helps them to grow and be more productive.
I find that I'm having trouble with the use of the word "need" in the two quotes above. I imagine that it may well be that you guys intended the word "some" or "most" to be implied to be appended before the word sub or slave in some of the sentences above. For example, "Many subs/slaves need to feel taken care of". So I know this will sound nitpicky, but here I go anyway.

Because couldn't it be, rather than a need, a very strong want for some? This is at the heart of what I was trying to get at when I mentioned switches above, I think. Someone can want very much to be dominated, maybe even enough to want it 24/7, and yet still be ok without it. I could see myself going 24/7 some day, for the right person, in the right relationship, but if it never happens I'll be just fine. Maybe it's different in that my desires are for service oriented submission but not for "slavery" per se?

Obviously for some it really is a relationship need, I just don't think it's true as a blanket statement. Of course, maybe the word need could come into play for me in that if I got to that point with someone, and we took it to that level, it could be that I would need it from that person in the context of that relationship. Hmm...
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The major players. Me, 30ish bi female. Gia, girlfriend of 4+ years. Clay, boyfriend/dom. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eddie, roommate & fwb.
The supporting cast. Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler. Dexter, Gia's lover. Helen, Eric's lover. Izzy and Nikki, Clay's partners. Liam, Eddie's husband.
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  #497  
Old 10-05-2011, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
Nyc, what term would you prefer?
Non-BDSM, non-kinky, something like that. Even though vanilla is my favorite ice cream flavor, calling non-kinksters "vanilla" seems to imply that relationships or sex without kink/BDSM are dull, boring, unenlightened, or less than gratifying, just generally across the board. I love what Yoxi said about it a few months ago.

Maybe it's the context within which I first learned of that usage years ago, but it sounds like BDSMers are calling non-BDSMers "vanilla" from a position of feeling superior because they're so willing to take risks that "Vanillas" aren't. Let's face it; I've come across many instances where BDSMers essentially say that they are more "evolved" because of what they do (and some people also maddeningly take that stance about polyamory versus monogamy). There are more ways to dig deep and become enlightened than a power exchange or flogging your lover. It's not the only road to self-discovery, is what I mean (non-BDSMers can grapple with the same issues in different ways).

So, yeah, don't like being called "vanilla" (though, as Mags once told me, I do have some chocolate sprinkles going on myself)... or a "girl"... or "middle-aged." Some terminology just rubs me the wrong way. But we learned that in the thread about using the word "secondary," heh-heh. I also dislike the term "unicorn" (even though I'd never be in that position, being straight and all).
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"Love is that condition in which another person's happiness is essential to your own." ~Robert Heinlein

Last edited by nycindie; 10-05-2011 at 04:52 AM.
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  #498  
Old 10-05-2011, 05:28 AM
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Apologies for spamming the thread with three posts in a row, y'all!

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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
But just how, exactly, does it help someone grow and be more productive when someone else is making decisions for them?
My impression is that you end up learning a heck a lot about yourself in that position. And a good dom who really knows, loves, and is devoted to you can help elicit your core desires from you and push you to things you didn't think you could do. An intense way to live and to love, to be sure.

Still, long-term, 24/7, total power exchange relationships, in which the sub makes no choices for him or herself whatsoever, are a relative-to-extreme rarity as far as I can tell. Most D/s relationships aren't structured quite that way, so questions that have to do with that sort of relationship won't apply to a lot of others. I think it's important to keep that in perspective.

So, for most D/s'ers, only certain aspects of control are ceded. And don't we all do that in various ways in our lives, and certainly not always to our detriment? You listen to your boss at work and, if you have a good boss, that's just fine, maybe even great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
It's very tricky in any therapeutic setting to not make "revelations" we have about personal issues into labels with which we then use to identify ourselves. What scares me about BDSM is that the participants are amateurs without professional knowledge, and can put themselves in vulnerable positions where they can get hurt, physically and psychologically. If it were a guided therapy with a goal in mind, at which point the role-playing stopped because the participants had reached resolution of their issues, I'd see more value in it.
I don't think D/s is used as a substitute for therapy for many or even most people who participate in it, any more than any other relationship is. Personally, my most intense dom/sub play was with Harry, and both of us had happy childhoods and nothing in particular to heal that I could discern... we both just really, really liked doing it.

As for vulnerability, again, we all make ourselves vulnerable in relationships. It's true though that BDSM play can potentially leave people more vulnerable and that's why those who write about it emphasize over and over the need for gobs of communication and trust. Not because they think those things aren't key in any relationship, obviously they are, but because if you neglect them in a BDSM context you risk more than just a crappy relationship, you risk potentially your safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
How would you really know that the person domming has any clue what is good for you, especially if they don't know you very well and are just following some standard ideas of what domming is supposed to be about? It scares me to think that there are misguided, vulnerable people out there who submit themselves to doms they don't know well, those who dominate to satisfy their egos and not necessarily to support the submissive one. I don't think it's a good idea for very young people to get into it 24/7 because it seems one would really have to know oneself extremely well before doing so.
Safe, sane, consensual. It may be consensual, but it's neither safe nor sane to let someone inexperienced or untrustworthy dom you in ways that might harm you. Hopefully most adults are smart enough to realize that. There's a lot of emphasis on mentorship and learning in the BDSM community to keep people from making just such mistakes. I do agree that 24/7 should wait until you have significant experience and know yourself and your partner very well.

Still, people make mistakes or move too fast in any and every relationship context. If only everyone could learn without mistakes, but that's just not the way it is. The mistakes of some do not invalidate the lifestyle... as I remind myself every time I cringe reading a post by yet another naive, insensitive, inexperienced unicorn hunting couple that's bound and determined to screw up their lives and the life of their third... ah, but there I go drawing comparisons between BDSM and poly again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
This is how I ponder it, it's not an indictment against BDSM altogether. I will say, though, that there are many ways to get to know oneself deeply, including around sex/sexuality, just as well as any power exchange relationship. Practicing power exchange/BDSM is only one. Calling non-BDSM sex/relationships "vanilla" seems like a put-down. Non-kinksters can push past boundaries, address sex and sexuality issues, and gain deep self-knowledge in other ways.
Was anyone saying that there aren't many ways to do those things, or that non-kinksters can't? I never got that impression. Our positive feelings about our lifestyle choices aren't meant to disparage yours. If people seem to talk a lot about the benefits of BDSM relationships, I imagine it's not because they think that those benefits are impossible to gain elsewhere, but rather because people, such as yourself, keep saying they can't se the benefits period.

Why all the fear (you say various things scare you twice in the quotes above, you've called certain aspects of BDSM disturbing before, etc.)? People make mistakes, they grow, they learn, they teach, hopefully we all get collectively smarter and fewer mistakes are made over time. The more vulnerable you make yourself the more room there is to be hurt, but that just means that we ALL, no matter the relationship construct, need to exercise good judgment, not that we ought to stop making ourselves vulnerable for our safety.

As a postscript, I'll admit that I've had to work hard not to take some of this personally. I know it's not meant that way, but it's hard to see one's orientations and deeply held desires scrutinized under a microscope by people who don't share them to try to determine if they're valid. I see utility in this conversation, it just ain't always easy to have.
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The major players. Me, 30ish bi female. Gia, girlfriend of 4+ years. Clay, boyfriend/dom. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eddie, roommate & fwb.
The supporting cast. Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler. Dexter, Gia's lover. Helen, Eric's lover. Izzy and Nikki, Clay's partners. Liam, Eddie's husband.
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  #499  
Old 10-05-2011, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Non-kinksters can push past boundaries, address sex and sexuality issues, and gain deep self-knowledge in other ways.
Was anyone saying that there aren't many ways to do those things, or that non-kinksters can't? I never got that impression.
Nope, no one said that here (at least recently; I haven't read this thread all the way back to the beginning). That was not meant to be a defensive statement to anyone here in particular, just a statement -- but it was related to the use of the term "vanilla" and how it is often used to convey the idea that people not into BDSM are boring and not as enlightened. I have come across that on other blogs and forums (like I said, I read around a bit). Like every alternative practice, there's always going to be some "One True Wayers."

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
As a postscript, I'll admit that I've had to work hard not to take some of this personally. I know it's not meant that way, but it's hard to see one's orientations and deeply held desires scrutinized under a microscope by people who don't share them to try to determine if they're valid. I see utility in this conversation, it just ain't always easy to have.
I am not so much trying to determine if it is all "valid," as much as I am trying to understand what people get out of it and why the appeal. I know it is a valid option for many people, just not for me.

As for my fears, it's more of a protective thing I have around people who may be embarking into something they're not equipped to handle (I don't fear for myself because I would never do it, beyond a few mild sex games). I am a worry-wart. I worry about people and things that can happen a lot... make that A LOT. See when it goes from bedroom play to 24/7, that worries me. It just seems so potentially dangerous, psychologically, psychically, and physically. I do like the idea of certain kinds of danger (for example, having sex in public with the chance of getting caught appeals to me), but I believe in individuality, autonomy, and every person's right to exercise free will, so submitting to someone as a slave is almost anathema to me. For that reason, I am relieved by your telling me that most often only certain aspects of one's life will come under another's control.

And as for what I find disturbing, basically any kind of enslavement of another human being is disturbing to me, so it takes a lot to grasp that in D/s this is voluntary, something that someone actually wants. The extreme versions of it, ie., to be collared, gagged, not be allowed to cum, or even look at their mate without permission, and paraded around on a leash, etc., I just... I can't relate to that in the least. Also in the larger picture of various BDSM practices (not just D/s), there are plenty things I find disturbing simply because... well, it would hurt a lot. Needle play, caning, public degradation, tit or genitalia torture, all that gives me shivers because it's so... Medieval! Ouchie! See, here's the thing about me: seeing a player get tackled in a football game makes me hide my eyes. I can't watch any kind of boxing or fighting. I don't like to see people get hurt. I wince, I am squeamish, I have bad dreams about it for days afterward. I can't see scary, gory movies even though I know it's all CGI and makeup.

And I'm definitely not into any kind of humiliation. Like making someone into furniture or saddling them like a horse and riding them? I'm intelligent and trying to be as open as I can, but I am struggling to see how much pleasure these acts could possibly provide. And especially when people say that it's not just about sexual gratification. It all goes against everything inside me to accept that someone would want to be tied up and used as a hallway table, to crouch there for hours, do you know what I mean? Maybe it's my arthritic knees that react first to that one, though, LOL.

At least give me credit for being curious, asking questions, and wanting to understand.
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"Love is that condition in which another person's happiness is essential to your own." ~Robert Heinlein

Last edited by nycindie; 10-05-2011 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 10-05-2011, 11:48 AM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Being spanked or flogged is not like stubbing your toe in the middle of the night when stumbling to the bathroom.

It may look ugly and painful to outsiders. Just as sex might look weird and awkward to people who don't understand sex. A kid, hearing Mommy moaning and groaning and screaming while being fucked, might ask, Why is Daddy hurting Mommy?

So with a flogging (or you name it, tattooing, branding, cutting, having a toy in your ass that attaches to the hair on your head, so you cant move), if you're something of a masochist. The endorphins released get you really high. They are like opium, OK? Like a runner, you get a "runner's high."

And some people like extreme sports. Those people that climb Mt Everest in horrible dangerous conditions? Bungee jumpers? Auto racers? Sky divers? People that go into caves and swim into and map dark unexplored underwater lakes that have never been mapped before? People that swim across the fucking English Channel? Why do they do it? "Because it is there. Because it makes me feel ALIVE."

As with sports, there is something mild, like canoeing on a quiet lake. Or there is going down white water on a raft. You've heard of adrenaline junkies. (What about guys that choose to be soldiers and go into fucking battle? Getting shot at seems to be some people's idea of fun! Damn.) So with BDSM, there are things to do from mild (blindfolding your partner and using ice or feathers or fur on their skin, texting the wife and ordering her to be naked on the couch with her legs spread til you get home to ravish her), to extreme (tit torture til the blood flows, having your balls nailed to a board, being suspended by hooks on your back and hanging there while you trip the fuck out-- I haven't done that and never will, but I've seen pix of their faces, they are in heaven).

Being used as a foot stool; or being forced to serve dinner to one's lover (and even a group of people) on one's knees; knowing you are meant to meet your Master at the door on your knees naked, when he gets home from work; being suspended by ropes from the ceiling or wall and having a vibrator used on you to make you cum over and over until you are exhausted; being tied into a rope corset and told to wear it under your clothes to work; wearing a vibrator that your M has the remote for while you go out to dinner; being told while at a restaurant to go to the restroom, strip and masturbate and write "I am a slut" on your body with a Sharpie as part of your masturbation; etc., gets one into subspace. That is an amazing place. You feel special and PROUD. And valued. And trippy, in an alternate reality. And loved, regarded with fondness and interest. It gets you turned on, and feeling sexy. Good adult fun.

Like the hippies used to say to straights about pot back in the '60's: "Don't knock it if you haven't tried it."

BTW, I HATE boxing too, Cindie. I can not STAND to see guys get punched in the face, esp when it's in slow motion and you see their face distort and the saliva and sweat spray out. That is gross to me! But I know they must actually LIKE getting punched in the face somehow. They do it over and over until their ears are like cauliflower, their nose has been broken multiple times, and even to the point of brain damage, like Mohammed Ali! What the hell?

I mean, when I am really turned on, a medium hard slap to the face, or having my hair pulled hard, feels really good to me! Go figure! However, I don't want a black eye or to have bald patches on my head from having my hair yanked out.

People are strange! Us cwazy humans.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 58, living with:
miss pixi, 37, who is dating (NRE):
Master, 32
my bf: Ginger, 61, married to:
Robin, 60 (mono)
and dating (NRE): Carla and David, married couple, early 40s
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