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  #111  
Old 09-20-2011, 04:01 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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By the same token, i have also seen the other partner show up here and act in such a way as to confirm the things that have been written about them.
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  #112  
Old 09-20-2011, 04:11 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Carma,

Calm down and get to the therapist. I think you're in the area of trying to un-ring bells. Sitting and worry about all the different scenarios that "could" be taking place is exhausting and futile. If and when he fucks up will be time to address those concerns. Sky.... still not falling.

I really don't see Sundance as this evil genius ...who had a long term plan to have an outside relationship ....and to deny you the same. The manipulation is all predicated on knowing the reaction. If there was no reaction ....or a positive reaction this theory falls apart very quickly.

Gaslight good movie...also twlight zone episode but I think it a little early...and with out any evidence to make that leap. Once in a paranoid mindset your brain can manufacture all kinds of evidence .....so I think should be careful here.


Annabel,

It was a golf metaphor ... Mulligan is a golf term.... it is a do over. So I was just keeping it with in the same sport. And no hitting off the ladies Tee's does not mean sex ....it just meant giving him very a slight break. The ladies Tee box is set closer to the hole because the difference in upper body strength .... giving strokes the same thing.

No I didn't read the entire article but from what you said I think that the article should have been written with the focus on selfish expectations and not on how life's not fair. I'll go back and read it....see how far off I am

Again ....fairness that starts with compassion ....how would you plug that in here .....
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  #113  
Old 09-20-2011, 04:56 PM
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MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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I've been dipping into this thread, the tiny bit I've read is fascinating but I'd thought that I shouldn't get involved (add opinions) because I haven't read it all... and haven't got time to (or do I??? - I could copy and paste it into my memory stick and read it at leisure back home [solar-panel-fed laptop without Internet connection]). It's been going like wildfire: just over a month and 11+ pages long already. Maybe I shouldn't comment until I've read it all (but by the next time I'm connected, it'll be several pages longer...)

What's decided me to write now is that Carma has always seemed so positive (enthusiastically positive) about poly in the past, has sent me nice, encouraging messages, and is obviously suffering now. So I decided to suggest something. And she herself has beat me to it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
Today I just want to call up Barbie and tell her that I am willing to share, as long as she knows the truth and respects me and my marriage. But how can I do that if Sundance won't tell me directly that he even wants that??? And of course, he will think it's because I want to see Butch, that it's all about me.

[...]

And I'm hella curious about Barbie. She was really falling in love with my husband. What's so terrible about that? Could we have been on the same team? We sure have something in common. So she bought him gifts -- is that so bad? Did it have to be so secretive? How dumb. I know I overreacted, but it's because he hid things -- which in turn led me to overreact, which led him to hide things...!!!
I haven't read enough to know if you've ever met Barbie. Why don't you make the effort? If you have met her, why not make the effort to get to know her better? I assume that that name, Barbie, is YOUR invention, because you see her as an empty-headed, unreal doll. She's a human being with feelings [and that would be true even if she DID happen to be rather empty-headed], she has - as you point out - fallen in love with your husband. I gather that he has lied to her about you so that you - for her - are also an unreal stick-figure. Give her a chance to meet the real you, to realise just how SD is lying to her. Isn't SHE a victim of his lying, too?

[All the above - and below - is going on the assumption that your version of the facts here is honest and well-balanced. I'm taken some criticism in the past for assuming this. So let me say that I don't assume it. (Neither do I assume the opposite. AAArghhh!) But this would be my advice if your version were 100% spot-on. I can't give any other advice, unless SD and Butch - or Barbie - contribute their versions...]

I think that you should at least consider the following possibilities:

1) That SD doesn't care for Barbie at all, never has. That it was all a calculated plan to manoeuvre you into dropping Butch.

2) That he's gaslighting. [see Magdlyn's post, above] And possibly gaslighting the 2 of you.

3) That he IS cheating on you. I don't know SD, I'm certainly not accusing him of it. But I DO know that many people think like this: "She cheated on me when I was being faithful. Now it's my turn. Serves her right!"

If you can't trust SD not to lie to you, I can only imagine one way (aside from tailing him or hiring a private eye - or waiting for gossip to fall into your lap) for you to dispel (or confirm) these doubts: to talk honestly with the woman. Don't treat her like the enemy... or a doll.

It's not failsafe. She might refuse to stop treating you as the enemy (or a stick figure). But give her that chance.

You yourself pointed out that you were really unhappy before the agreement to go poly. And you're really unhappy now. I was sorry to read that you were giving up on poly (but that's me and my values: they shouldn't condition your choices)... and glad to read that you're at least considering reconsidering.

But do you have the right to "sneak" behind your husband's back and get honest with his gf (or ex-gf)? You're American, right? I believe that this [inalienable] right is anchored in your country's Constitution (or is it the Declaration of Independence [THAT would be fitting, re: polyamory]): "the pursuit of happiness". Go for it, Carma! Goodness knows you deserve it.

+++

Off topic, but I'm listening to this right now and - who knows - it might help. Crank the volume up and have a good cry. (No, not because it's sad, just because it's beautiful).
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  #114  
Old 09-20-2011, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonKaos View Post
Has Sundance really chosen not to post here or does he simply not know he's being talked about? Maybe he should come here and read all the stuff being said about him, then i bet he'd feel like posting. I know i would.
I know I have suggested that Carma encourage Sundance to post here. He hasn't posted here in a long time. But I can't recall what she said about him doing that. I do agree that we have only been going on one side of the story; it could read quite differently from Sundance's perspective. And we all know that is where a lot of conflict lies for many people in relationships, when there is such a different view of things.
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  #115  
Old 09-20-2011, 06:52 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
I know I have suggested that Carma encourage Sundance to post here. He hasn't posted here in a long time. But I can't recall what she said about him doing that. I do agree that we have only been going on one side of the story; it could read quite differently from Sundance's perspective. And we all know that is where a lot of conflict lies for many people in relationships, when there is such a different view of things.
OK, so Sundance has posted here in the past but has chosen not to anymore? I guess that's on him then.

The thing is (I didn't add before because it's awkward to edit posts on the mobile device), sometimes the "other side of the story" also confirms that the person is an [unflattering ad-hominem].
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  #116  
Old 09-20-2011, 10:40 PM
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I've mentioned to him to come here -- I have no idea why he won't. He did way back at the beginning. Actually he tends to belittle (/tease?) me for being on here. He thinks it's just another one of my "fickle obsessions." It's true, I have been somewhat of an extremist my whole life, I guess. When I was Catholic, I started getting REALLY religious, even saying the rosary daily. Then I read DAwkins' "The God Delusion" and my faith disintegrated, much to my surprise, actually. Geez, it seemed so logical, but what do I know?! When I read a book I tend to really embrace what it says and I want to try to instill the "experts'" advice. Ok, so I've gotten a little hooked on self-help, what can I say?? Maybe I'm not an "extremist" so much as an "enthusiast?" Yeah, that's more how I see it...

Anyway, he never reads ANY book I recommend. So I'm not surprised he won't come here either. He is not interested in "improving" himself unless it involves weight lifting, which he is 100% committed to.

Fucking incredible that Gaslighting came up here -- I have been having some creepy thoughts about exactly that, myself. The past couple of days I've had some serious suspicions that he has lied to me, and I AM PRETTY SURE I AM RIGHT ON, but I can't prove it and I refuse to sound like some paranoid freak. I also refuse to play detective, how degrading for both of us. But let's face it, a woman knows when she's being lied to. It's in his voice, in his mannerisms, and in some details that I'm not going to bother going into.

He's still swearing he's done with her. Calls her his ex-girlfriend.

I can tell he is waiting to see if I hold to my break up with Butch. I hate this. I hate it that he is putting his relationship with her, back on ME, and he honestly thinks I believe that I have that much power!!!

I am not stupid. I know better. He is just going underground. Just in case? Or because she means more to him than he admits.

Well, time will tell. I am sorry everyone but I just don't feel ready to call her up yet! So much drama it could bring up. My biggest fear???? That she will lie to me, too. At this time I don't think I could take it! My second biggest fear???? That she will ask me to reveal the lies he's told her. And I will betray him. It feels..... wrong. I wish SHE would call ME!!!!

I mean, if I call, I'm not sure I know what I want. The Truth??? To give it??? To get it???? To tell her to back off, or to tell her to go ahead with him, I'm ok with it? Do I want her to get pissed and break up with him, then he'll try and blame me???? I just have to be clear on my motives, before I open up a powder keg with her.

I can edge her out, by pouring on the wifely love, right? He SAYS he's mono. I believe he is -- but I also believe he is trying out the cheating way. IT'S NOT GOING TO HOLD UP. He's smart, but he's going to slip up. Am I waiting, like a snake all coiled up, for him to fuck up so I can say "GOTCHA!"? Yes -- I am. I think once he's called out on his shit he will be forced to change. It worked for me! It's the only thing that worked for me. I had to realize that lying, and its consequences, was hell.

Sometimes I think I am just trying to play God.

What I really am is confused. I don't know what I really want. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll call a therapist, I know....

Thank you all for your patience. And MrFFR, for your kindness,

OH -- also, the Barbie nickname, I messed up in choosing that. I never meant that she was vacuous or air-headed or a plaything -- at least not consciously! I was ONLY referring to how beautiful she is, seriously everyone. I would change the moniker but I think it's kind of too late now.
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  #117  
Old 09-21-2011, 01:55 PM
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@Carma -- Have you read this article on gaslighting? That whole "fickle obsessions" statement of his makes me feel like we're on the right track here, that's a really disrespectful way to talk about someone's interests... http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog...razy%E2%80%9D/

@NK -- Fair enough!

@Dh -- Ahh, gotcha.

As for what would count as compassionate fairness, well, I think there are two relevant questions. What do the people involved need from each other? And what are they able and willing to give to each other to help meet those needs? Carma needed poly, so Sun gave her that. Sun needed some emotional barriers between her and Butch, so she gave him that. Now Carma needs honesty between Sun and Barbie, but he won't give her that. Why? Is it because he needs a dishonest relationship with her? But he says he doesn't even care about her! And considering all the agony Carma has gone through because of the lack of honesty, I would certainly see honesty as a need. And it's not like he hasn't had time, this isn't a new situation. So what was the real motive here?
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  #118  
Old 09-21-2011, 02:38 PM
Minxxa Minxxa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
Anyway, he never reads ANY book I recommend. So I'm not surprised he won't come here either. He is not interested in "improving" himself unless it involves weight lifting, which he is 100% committed to.
My hubs is the same way. While I will go researching something if I'm interested in it, or am having issues in order to gain some perspective outside of my own head, he just goes with his gut. And his gut is sometimes not a great leader.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
The past couple of days I've had some serious suspicions that he has lied to me, and I AM PRETTY SURE I AM RIGHT ON, but I can't prove it and I refuse to sound like some paranoid freak. I also refuse to play detective, how degrading for both of us. But let's face it, a woman knows when she's being lied to. It's in his voice, in his mannerisms, and in some details that I'm not going to bother going into.
I used to feel this way ALL OF THE TIME. And I WAS right. My hubs could never figure out how I knew he was lying... and I never had "proof" so I wouldn't say anything for a long time, but my intuition was recognizing things that my conscious self wouldn't. Finally I would just say something and he would be shocked because it was right on.

Don't play detective. Just TELL him, you feel like he is lying to you, you don't have concrete proof, and you're not going to go looking for it, but you don't believe him and the fact that you don't believe or trust him is destroying the relationship. So he can either come clean, and you can deal, or he can continue and he will lose his marraige. The choice is his.

And then let him make that choice. Honestly Carma, if he is lying to you and continues to lie to you and doesn't do the work to fix things, do you really want to stay with him? Lay everything down and let him decide if he wants to be truthful or not. If he wants to be MARRIED or not.

I know that can seem like a big step, but a relationship without honesty is not only NOT a good place to be, it can destroy your self-worth, self-esteem, your trust in everybody else and a lot of other crap that you may never get back. You are already almost there-- by blaming yourself for his lies

It's been several years since my hubs finally got honest with me... and I am still fighting to regain trust in him and to really believe what he tells me. I still second guess everything he says, and take most things as they could be true, they might not be.

Some things once they're broken are never the same again.

Last edited by Minxxa; 09-21-2011 at 02:44 PM.
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  #119  
Old 09-21-2011, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Minxxa View Post

Some things once they're broken are never the same again.
How true.

Well, they won't be the same, anyway. I have to figure out what I want. One thing I do know is, I don't want to live with someone who cannot be honest with me.

I don't know if I want to go forward in this marriage. Both mono and poly need honesty. We've both crossed over into lying to each other. I was honest about my relationship once we opened up. But clearly Sundance chose to lie both in poly AND now in mono!

Sundance said all he wants is me. Well, here I am, 100%, so why is he going off to be with her for two hours yesterday???? Then lying about it????

He's probably lying to her, too. I'm sure she thinks I've gone back with Butch.

WHY, though??? Why is he choosing to lie, when he could just say, "Honey, I want us to have an open marriage, afterall." Because he's so afraid SHE won't go along if SHE knows the truth? Annabel asked the same question. Why??? Why would he need a dishonest relationship with her???? If she loves him so much, and she knows he doesn't want to leave his family, then what would be the problem for her to know the whole truth? Besides, if she thinks he's back with her because I'm back with Butch, shouldn't that raise a red flag for her - "He's only with me to get even with her!"?

Someone said awhile back that maybe he is planning to leave the marriage, just needs to get some things in order first. I think he just wants to have TWO options, just in case one doesn't work out. Well, that doesn't show much faith in our relationship, does it? And if he doesn't have faith in it, it's gonna be pretty hard for me to carry it all by myself.

I'm going to read the article.

Thanks for your comments Minxa. Very helpful! I get really scared when he denies things when I call him out. I don't know, it's just freaky when someone can boldfaced lie to you. To protect himself? From what? He knows how I drink the truth down like water to a person dying of thirst!

Just realized honesty really IS the oxygen in a relationship.

No wonder I feel (PHYSICALLY) like I can't breathe!!!
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  #120  
Old 09-21-2011, 06:18 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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Originally Posted by Carma View Post
WHY, though??? Why is he choosing to lie, when he could just say, "Honey, I want us to have an open marriage, afterall." Because he's so afraid SHE won't go along if SHE knows the truth? Annabel asked the same question. Why??? Why would he need a dishonest relationship with her???? If she loves him so much, and she knows he doesn't want to leave his family, then what would be the problem for her to know the whole truth? Besides, if she thinks he's back with her because I'm back with Butch, shouldn't that raise a red flag for her - "He's only with me to get even with her!"?
Asking 'Why?' here is a fool's game. It's certainly a natural question to ask, and to really need answers for. But it distracts you from making real changes in you and asking for real changes in Sundance and your relationship with him.

Also, I strongly suspect that Sundance can't answer this question for you right now, and maybe ever. I don't believe that he knows whats going on for him. From your descriptions, it sounds like he is re-enacting some very old patterns. (I would guess you are too, btw.) I have to agree with DH that he's not an evil genius with a plan but someone profoundly confused, unhappy, and in pain and relying on old ideas, old patterns unconsciously. This does not excuse his actions - he did consciously choose to lie to you and Barbie. That does not make what he is doing less dangerous and disturbing.

But someone acting out even partly unconsciously usually does not 'know' why they do what they do. It's a fool's game to even ask them why - they don't know and, until the hard work of understanding themselves has begun, they often don't even have a clue that they don't know.

So don't ask why. Ask for and look for results. Is he lying to you or not? Is he open with you or not? Is he telling her the truth or not? Asking 'why' just sucks you into the maelstorm, spins you about and leaves you even further from getting actual change accomplished. Your questions can't be answered right now. That is hard. You desperately want to understand. But you're not going to get answers right now, and maybe ever. Focusing on the 'why' won't get you to where you need to go.

Last edited by opalescent; 09-21-2011 at 06:19 PM. Reason: spelling and clarity
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