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  #101  
Old 09-16-2011, 08:12 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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If we were following a thread all about Sundance struggling to come to terms with Carma's betrayal, I would feel a great deal of compassion for him. Instead, in this thread, we've seen him lie to both Carma and Barbie about BIG things and refuse to stop. I have never once told Carma she was wrong for staying in her marriage and, in fact, I supported her decision to leave Butch in the end. However, in their current predicament I've felt compassion for Carma, Barbie and Butch but NOT for Sundance, because he's acting atrociously! Yes NRE is real, and yes mistakes happen, but no you do not get a mulligan, a free pass with no condemnation or whatever, when your mistakes are pointed out to you again and again and instead of trying to change you blatantly use and lie to a new partner without seeming to even think it's a problem.

It's just not cool.
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Last edited by AnnabelMore; 09-16-2011 at 08:37 PM.
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  #102  
Old 09-16-2011, 08:45 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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"Your spouse is doing things wrong??? Leave-em, ditch-em, kick them to the curb !!! But hey, if you dump your secondary or newest lover, we`ll tell you, that you treated them as disposable !"

I genuinely haven't seen that pattern. I think people here are tired of dysfunctional situations and are quick to suggest that a poster leave any relationship where things are really messed up. Note ALL the advice that Imaginary Illusions got on his blog telling him to leave his secondary, K. Note all the advice that lovinhimlovinher got in the Gen. section NOT to downgrade her relationship with her husband from primary to secondary without working on it more.

It's all situational... it's just that we don't privilege marriage over everything else, so yes, people get told they should consider leaving their spouses sometimes, and I guess that's not advice you see a lot in the culture at large because the idea is you have to try to save your marriage at all costs, everything else be damned.
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  #103  
Old 09-16-2011, 09:05 PM
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What I loved about poly is its requirement for absolute honesty. I mean, it just can't work without it. Sundance is not comfortable or secure enough to operate that way. So there is a major issue, in and outside of poly, which was only going to be worse when he expanded into another relationship.

I am into the gruelling process of being honest with myself and with others. I was also killer lonely, before the affair and also in my encouragement of Sundance to find a girlfriend -- who I hoped would become my friend. I guess that may have been a miscommunication on my part (although I don't think it was -- I dreamed of a "sister wife," I did not dream of him having a stranger telling him how deeply she loved him) or maybe I just didn't realize how truly lonely I was, and that there are plenty of other ways of addressing loneliness, than sending my husband out on a silver platter!

My "affair" with Butch for the 3+ years prior to poly.... I call it an affair but it was not, totally. It was a friendship that I/we fought extremely hard from letting get deeper. There were months when I avoided him altogether. We moved to another town for a school year, where I never saw him at all, although I did call him on the phone a few times, to see how he was doing. I can't justify the fact that yes, I had crossed an emotional line, and eventually it became physical (not actually consummated til our poly agreement) -- but I must say we weren't having FUN during those years!!! It was all fighting off feelings that neither of us wanted to act on. It was heartwrenching. It was not a passionate wild love affair. (does that matter? Does it make me any more "righteous"?)

Anyway, I realized today that I really did love our Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (and Etta Place) role play, very much. Maybe if the two guys had embraced it half as much as I had, they would have found some rich, wonderful friendship and intimacy there. Instead, Sundance took his male pride out there for some ego-stroking. He did NOT see some girl and feel she could use a friend. It was all about his needs -- and she was all too happy to fill them. But he could have gotten them all met right here if only he'd let us all enjoy what we had worked so hard to build! He's a loner and a macho man. And it's really too bad. The other option was he could have introduced her to me, even to Butch eventually! I've seen that happen in beautiful ways right here on this forum. Now I'm second guessing myself and saying I was crazy? He's blaming me -- and/or I'm blaming myself -- for being "wrong" all along? Geez, it's all gotta be black and white, doesn't it?!?

Those are my thoughts off the top of my head at the moment. I am such an extremist -- we hit a big bump in the road and I immediately scream, "TURN BACK!!!!" I'm not so sure I didn't bail out too soon. I don't know, I'm still very confused.

As for Butch, he is so good at compartmentalizing things, I have to believe he'll stuff it all and be fine. He is another one too proud to show his true feelings. If he can't come out and admit it, I guess he's going to lose something he may or may not have treasured in his life. Hey -- he and Sundance are still friends; why can't HE do the talking this time???? I can't be the one ruling the poly universe anymore! Or the mono one, either!

(For one wild dreamy moment today, I imagined my two guys talking it out and agreeing to try and make it work again! Haha. Or Sundance surprising the hell out of me and taking me to dinner and there are Butch and Barbie, and we all have a good laugh!)

If it weren't for all of you, I may not even be alive right now. I want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart. Your perspective keeps me thinking and loving and breathing and REAL.
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  #104  
Old 09-19-2011, 05:00 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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annabel,

Ok so your against a mulligan ....how about letting Sun hit off the ladies Tee's and 5 strokes . ... in the spirit of compassion and compromise?

You said the kind of fairness that really matters is the kind that starts with compassion. How do you plug that into this situation ....on all sides. And that's hard to reconcile..... with life is not fair ringing in the back ground.

The article you mentioned seemed to confuse acts done for or with someone with the expectation of a payout later down the road and ....fairness.

Butch had an affair with a married woman.....his eyes.... wide open.

Barbie ....(who has a rich bf)(what type of relationship they have is????) knew she was entering a situation that had the potential of getting messy.

I don't see anyone anyone with completely clean hands....
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  #105  
Old 09-19-2011, 05:35 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Dh: how about letting Sun hit off the ladies Tee's and 5 strokes . ... in the spirit of compassion and compromise?

-- I'm actually not sure what this means? If this means sex, then of course I think that should be fine, but ONLY if he can do that and be honest with all involved. I don't know how to make it clearer that I think lack of honesty on Sun's part is what made this situation not ok. There is nothing compassionate ahout letting your partner deceive a woman about the nature of your relationship.

Dh: The article you mentioned seemed to confuse acts done for or with someone with the expectation of a payout later down the road and ....fairness.

-- My understanding of the point of the article was that doing something for someone while expecting a reward is NOT a good definition of fairness. Did you ever read the whole article?

Dh: I don't see anyone anyone with completely clean hands....

-- Did you see the part, a few posts back, where I said "I hear you that things were messed up on both sides at various times in the relationship"? I agree with you on that point. But when you've messed up, your responsibility is to reform your behavior and do better. That's what Carma did when she came clean to Sun and negotiated a poly arrangement where everyone could be honest. It *doesn't* mean that you're required to wear a scarlet letter A, take shit for the rest of your life, and accept without argument any wrongs your partner does to you in the future as your just rewards.

We all make mistakes, and if we're lucky we sometimes also get the chance to do what we can to make them right. Fairness is treating someone how you'd want to be treated. Fairness is NOT "you messed up so now I can do whatever I want with no consequences or regard for you."
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  #106  
Old 09-19-2011, 06:50 PM
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I've got some weird stuff in my head today. Confused. It's been one strange week of topsy-turvy emotions, then some numbness, and now some new perspectives coming along.

I wonder if I just gave up too soon. At the first taste of jealousy, I totally freaked. But, like so many have pointed out here, it was the dishonesty that was eating me alive, not so much the polyamorous situation. Maybe it wasn't even "jealousy;" maybe it was more simply a fear of the unknown. I just didn't know where I stand, she (Barbie) didn't know where she stands, and it was getting messy.

Sundance seems fine with giving her up, says he is, says he's glad it's just us, back to being monogamous again. Yet.... she called him yesterday afternoon while I was away for a few hours. She had to have known I'd be gone at that time, so how did she know? He must have told her, right? So when was that? A text first? I mean, obviously they are in touch, she knows my schedule well enough to know it's "safe" to call him. Or "respectfully not wanting to intrude on my time with him." (?) I'm not being suspicious, playing detective, all that crap. I shouldn't have to be -- I wish Sundance felt free enough and safe enough to JUST TELL ME. He is constantly working an angle in this, and it does not have to be that way. Geez man! Do you care about her or not? He says NO. Is it "over" with her? He says it is. But he talks to her, says it's about work. Which I'm sure some of it is. And I know he can see her at any point during his workday, and I would never know. I don't want to be suspicious. I don't want to be lied to. I would rather just tell him to keep the relationship going with her!!! How hard is it, to just do it, but just be honest about it???

I'm uncomfortable with the manipulation here. But on the flip side, actually -- it's the appearance that I'M the one in the driver's seat: "If you want me to stop seeing her, then you stop seeing Butch." So me ending things with Butch was only a way of manipulating HIS relationship with her? Ugh. That's not right. Doesn't he want to be free to make his own decisions??? Don't I want him to be???

Our secondary relationships can't be so dependent upon one another. THAT'S not fair.

I think he's trying to keep her "on the back burner" just in case I change my mind and want to see Butch, or get caught sneaking around all over again.

I'm hyper-sensitive, trying to figure out, does he want to see her, and is he looking for a license to do so?

I don't give out the licenses!
Do I?
Does he?

I mean, do I want monogamy, or don't I? Shit, at this point, I have no idea! I know at some points in our polyamory, I felt more natural than I have in my entire life. We had worked really hard to work out the boundaries, and I thought they were actually starting to work. Could we have worked it out with her, too?

Today I just want to call up Barbie and tell her that I am willing to share, as long as she knows the truth and respects me and my marriage. But how can I do that if Sundance won't tell me directly that he even wants that??? And of course, he will think it's because I want to see Butch, that it's all about me.

What about me? If he resumes (continues?) his relationship with her, and I find out, either by his honest admission (not likely) or me playing detective and "busting" him (which I don't want to do, either), then what? Then do I get a green light to go back to Butch again? Do I even want that? Does Sundance? And isn't this rather ridiculous, as we both have secondaries who would happily take us back but don't even get a say in the matter, at all??

I still like the concept of polyamory. I liked re-defining love and marriage, creating a life that is uniquely ours and not dictated by convention and "morals." I liked being true to myself and to my own heart.

And I'm hella curious about Barbie. She was really falling in love with my husband. What's so terrible about that? Could we have been on the same team? We sure have something in common. So she bought him gifts -- is that so bad? Did it have to be so secretive? How dumb. I know I overreacted, but it's because he hid things -- which in turn led me to overreact, which led him to hide things...!!!

This is all one big cluster of confusion. Having an incredibly tough time trying to figure this out, and poor Sundance, he's overwhelmed right now, with work stuff, some health issues, finances, my MOODS..... We talk till we're both losing sleep at night. Yeah, I need to make that counseling appointment, right?!
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  #107  
Old 09-20-2011, 01:38 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
Yeah, I need to make that counseling appointment, right?!
Yes. He's manipulated and gaslighted* you right into a corner, right where he wants you. Your "boundaries" of how you could express your love to Butch were so tight... but not limited enough for Sundance, it seems. So he forced your hand, got you to break up with B, and now he is free to see Barbie anytime he wants, 2 hours away in the town where they both work for the same company!

This isn't poly, this is cheating.

*defintion of gaslighting

Quote:
gaslighting
A common form of brainwashing in which an abuser tries to falsely convince the victim that the victim is defective, for any purpose whatsoever, such as making the victim more pliable and easily controlled, or making the victim more emotional and therefore more needy and dependent. {You're reading "Definition of Gaslighting" by J. E. Brown.}

Often done by friends and family members, who claim (and may even believe) that they are trying to be helpful. The gaslighting abuser sees himself or herself as a nurturing parental figure in relation to the victim, and uses gaslighting as a means for keeping the victim in that relationship, perhaps as punishment for the victim's attempt to break out of the dependent role.

Example 1: If an abusive person says hurtful things and makes you cry, and then, instead of apologizing and taking responsibility, starts recommending treatments for what he or she calls "your depression" or "your mood swings," you are in the presence of a gaslighter.

Example 2: If someone insults you or criticizes you, and then pretends it was a joke and asks "Don't you have a sense of humor?", that's gaslighting.

Perception blaming is a common form of gaslighting, and a common technique for evading the consequences of one's actions. Example: "I'm sorry you perceived my words that way; it wasn't my intention." Translation: "You are perceptually defective. Everyone else in the world can read my mind; if you can't, there must be something wrong with you. Or so I'd like you to believe." Unspoken Message: "My intention should change your actions (even though it didn't change mine)." This presupposes the reasoning "Most people are judged for their actions; but *I* want to be judged for my unseen intentions." For more about this double standard, see Definition of Conceit. {Read this comp1ete article at http://jebrown.us/Relationshop/Defin...slighting.html .}

Etymology: Term is named after the film Gaslight (1944), in which the villain used the technique.
http://jebrown.us/Relationshop/Defin...slighting.html

Also, see wiki on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
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Last edited by Magdlyn; 09-20-2011 at 01:45 PM.
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  #108  
Old 09-20-2011, 02:36 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Wait a minute people, we only have one side of the story here. How dare you all judge Sundance when he hasn't even had the chance to speak for himself.
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  #109  
Old 09-20-2011, 02:59 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonKaos View Post
Wait a minute people, we only have one side of the story here. How dare you all judge Sundance when he hasn't even had the chance to speak for himself.
?

Sun could post here if he wanted, he's chosen not to. All we have to go on is Carma's story so what should we do, just not say anything when our take on the situation is that he's not acting in the best ways or with the best motives?

I think that Mag's call of gaslighting makes a lot of sense and fits with some of the things Carma has told us. He may not realize exactly what he's doing. Or Mag may be wrong, but IF she's right the info could really help Carma in understanding their dynamic, talking to him about how his behavior affects her, and helping her decide what to do.

I don't see this board as a place where we try not to judge, I see it as a place where we try to help.
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  #110  
Old 09-20-2011, 03:57 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Annabel darling,

!

I'm just doing what people usually do at some point, which is point out that we only have one side of the story and therefore incomplete information with which to draw conclusions. Time and time again i have seen people do a 180 degree turn on their free advice when the other part(ies) show up and see what their partner wrote about them. Has Sundance really chosen not to post here or does he simply not know he's being talked about? Maybe he should come here and read all the stuff being said about him, then i bet he'd feel like posting. I know i would.

Also, i have been in your position too, lecturing other members who complain about people judging without the other side of the story. So nothing you just said is new to me; you could have copied it from one of my earlier posts.
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