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  #21  
Old 09-18-2011, 03:15 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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No, I hear you brother. I am a switch, I love dealing out the pain as well as taking it. I go crazy if I don't get a goodly amount of each. I could never go back to being vanilla.. if I don't get enough of kinky sex, I do revert to fantasy and porn/erotica. Luckily my gf is also a switch with me, altho more on the sub side.

I hear you on not wanting to waste more years in longing... life is short, whether one has had near death experiences or not!

Please keep posting. We're an open minded bunch here, and a lot of us are into BDSM.
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  #22  
Old 09-18-2011, 04:43 PM
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JuliaGay JuliaGay is offline
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Thank you for sharing your side of things, Baron.

While I understand wanting to keep your commitment, I can see that you are both deeply unhappy and unfulfilled. I'm wondering why you stay together when it seems to me that separating could give you both the freedom find what you are looking for. I also wonder why you made the commitment even though, as you said, the conditions you felt you needed hadn't been met.

Whatever you choose, I just want to say that sometimes things just don't work out. You and RS have tried very, very hard to make them work. There's no dishonor in separating if you've given it your best effort. Life is a journey. It often doesn't go where you think it will or where you want it to. If that were the case, I'd still be with K. But K leaving me allowed N to come into my life and I have a wonderful life with him. Probably better than if I'd stayed with K.

I'm not saying that you two should separate. I know it will likely be very painful if you do. Just that I think you shouldn't be afraid to explore that possibility. Sometimes it is the best option.

Hang in there and keep posting, as Magdlyn encouraged you to do.

JG
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  #23  
Old 09-18-2011, 05:22 PM
Jade Jade is offline
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Wow, Baron. If I were in Raspberry Surprise's shoes, I'd be crushed by your post. But if you guys have been married this long and in therapy, then probably nothing you've said is new to her. I give you credit for knowing yourself well enough to throw it all out there.

You two seem to love each other but have some fundamental incompatibilities. I guess the question becomes, do you stay together and work around them or give up and seek happiness on your own?

As a woman who spent many years with an unhappy husband, I can tell you that there is a certain amount of mistrust and resentment that develops. That is some tough shit to work through. Without even being conscious of it, I began seeing my husband as a self-pitying, self-righteous, martyring brat - which, of course, kills sexual desire and feeds the non-intimacy cycle. Even now, when we have a pretty fulfilling sex life, and he has other sexual and emotional outlets, I still have a strong negative emotional reaction if he's in a place where I perceive he wants something and I can't give it at the time. I think, "Oh no, here we go again. If I don't manage to put on the whore in the next three hours, I'll be emotionally battered."

I can't relate to your particular SM desires, but I feel confident saying that bringing someone else into your relationship, while relieving some stress, will create it's own unique ones. Please don't think, for even a second, that friendship necessarily alleviates time constraints. You will simply be replacing some old challenges with new ones.

It may work for you both. I would suggest, however, that if you choose to stay together, that while you're looking for your own fix, your wife be allowed the same freedom. You are seeking a situation which will leave her feeling continuously emotionally threatened, unless she is superwoman, has a Ghandi-like personality, or... not sure what I'm trying to say here, except that RS seems to have strong emotions which need to be channeled, rather than blunted.

Wow, guys. I feel like a little old southern lady, but honestly, Bless Your Hearts. Several years ago I would have read your posts and thought, "They're doomed." I'm not so deceived now. If you choose to, you can meet this challenge together. As long as your respect and love one another and yourselves, whatever solution you reach together will be okay.
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  #24  
Old 09-18-2011, 05:32 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Hey Baron,

Very well written post! Major kudos on not wanting to drag a new person in to a messed up situation.

If I could offer one piece of advice, assuming that you and RS do decide to open your marriage, it would be to go to munches, play parties at your local dungeon, and local conferences, campouts, and other kink-lifestyle events. I live in a major metropolitan area, so I may be spoiled by having all of these things available. If you're not sure what the opportunities are in your area, you can always set up a fetlife profile and explore.

It's great that you have a past experience under your belt and lots of hot ideas, but I think that any relatively rusty/new kinky person would benefit greatly from meeting and talking to like-minded people, watching them play, and getting a feel for what possibilities are realistic, safe, sane and *awesome*.

These experiences will not only help you refine your ideas and techniques as a dom in preparation for finding that special sub (nothing is hotter than competence!), they will also expose you to lots of friends and like-minded folks who can counsel you through your poly problems. You may even find the lady you're looking for there, though I recommend going with learning in mind rather than dating, at least at first.

I think that saying "I will not a date a woman if she's not someone you can get along with and potentially become good friends with" is a fine criteria. You can keep things very casual with new women until they've "met the missus." But you can't *require* RS to be friends with anyone new. Friendship is tricky, just like love is, and it has to grow organically. I also think having her pick someone out for you doesn't make a lot of sense... after all, chemistry and compatability between you and your new partner has to be high for something to blossom, and who can really feel and identify that aside from you?

Good luck to you both. You shouldn't have to remain indefinitely unhappy.
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  #25  
Old 09-19-2011, 02:28 PM
MichelleZed MichelleZed is offline
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Baron, thanks for posting. Quite a few things you wrote made me pause and think, and I think I'll just point them out for you and maybe you can think about them, too.

I pick apart what you say quite a bit, so before you read it, I want you to know a few things.

I have been in a position in my life before where I have had to secondarily care for a depressed person for a few years. I want to say that I sympathize with your plight, and I know how it can kind of deaden your relationship when you are the caregiver all the time.

Also, don't worry about offending people with your BDSM desires here. We are not judging you for them! You're safe here, and we don't think you're "abhorrent" for wanting to slap a consenting woman around in the bedroom.

I'm on your side and I hope you can find happiness and fulfillment. But now here are some things to think about:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron View Post
I hope people will not take exception to my only talking on my own behalf, rather than the more objective talking for both of us that is usual for me.
Baron, I can't imagine why anyone would take exception to you *not* speaking for your wife. Usually, we like it when people speak for themselves and not other people. Is that really what you meant to say? Or was that an attempt at humour? Because not usually letting your wife speak for herself isn't really a laughing matter.

Quote:
In relationship terms, I am very unhappy and have been so for most of the relationship. I have no intention of rehashing all the many problems or past difficulties we have in our relationship. I expect anyone who has been in a relationship for longer than a year would have a similar list.
I would highly expect not, Baron. You have been in a relationship for more than a decade at describe yourself as "very unhappy". If anyone who has been in a relationship for longer than a year had similar problems, we should all give up relationships.

I want to assure you that many people in long-term relationships don't feel unhappy or defeated like you've described. If you're sticking with your wife because you think it wouldn't be any better with someone else, then you should rethink that.

Also, you're thinking of embarking on another relationship! Are you expecting that one to develop similar baggage in a year, like you say happens in all relationships? What will you do then? Dump that girl and get a new one?

Quote:
Our problem has been the lack of intimacy and commitment to our relationship, which has led to my losing trust and belief in RS.
It took me a minute to figure out that by "lack of intimacy" you mean a lack of sex. Intimacy can be a nice euphemism for sex, but it can also mean other things. Look, sorry she isn't fucking you. That really sucks.

Anyway, in the next paragraph, you spend a lot of time using some pretty blaming language, talking about how you hard you tried to fix your relationship and how hard RS didn't. You sound pretty bitter and I wonder why you are still hanging on to this relationship when you have this level of toxicity in your feelings towards her.

But I want to challenge you a little bit. If you want to be able to get along with your wife as you embark on relationships with other women--or even, alternatively, if you want to experience a smoother divorce--I think you have to let go of some of your blaming anger and accept at least some responsibility for your part in this.

You talk about a condition of your marrying her was that she make some changes, but that she didn't make any of those changes, and that you married her anyway. Maybe what you wanted from her was not what she was ever willing or able to give. If that's true, it's not just that she's not meeting you half-way. It's that you're expecting something to come out of her that was never meant to come out--that you two are incompatible. That's kind of nobody's fault, Baron. But it is a little unfair if you blame only her for the incompatibility. You married her, and said in that ceremony that you could love the person she was. But you didn't--you wanted her to change, even from the very beginning.

Quote:
In answer to someone's question, we do not have any children because of the lack of intimacy.
This is another example of blaming language to me. It sounds like you are trying to say that you really wanted children, but that you couldn't have them, because she wouldn't have sex with you even to try to conceive. Somehow that sounds far-fetched. Elaborate?

Also, even if you did have a conversation where you both decided you wanted to parent together, doesn't your wife have PCOS? That can be a stressor on any couple trying to conceive.

Quote:
I want RS to be friends with that person because I am not willing to sneak about in the background, leading a hidden life that can never be spoken of.
You have given me two extremes: 1) that your wife be friends with your new partner, or 2) that you live a hidden life and never speak of your partner. I hope you realize that there are options in between, that they don't have to be best buds or nothing. For instance--and this is what usually happens--your wife can meet your new partner and then know of her. Your relationship wouldn't be a secret, and she would gradually work her way into your life, and you wouldn't hide it. Your wife would see more of the new girl and maybe they would grow to be friends, or maybe they'd just always be amicable acquaintances. You can't force friendship, just like you can't force love, and it's silly to try.

You sound sometimes like the kind of guy who tries to fit a square peg into a round hole and then blames everyone (including yourself) because it's just not going in.

Quote:
I don't believe I am "Domming" RS by wanting her to be friends with this potential other person.
I never said that. I said you were accidentally "domming" her by requiring her to *choose* the potential girlfriend. It doesn't look like you want that, and your wife may have misrepresented you there.

Quote:
I bully people for a specific purpose, for my good and theirs.
Interesting. Do you mean just for pretend fun in the bedroom? Or do you mean in "real life"? Because it sounds like you are blurring your BDSM into your everyday interactions, which is one of those common mistakes. If you want to bully your partner (for funsies!) you're looking at more of a D/s situation than an "S&M" one.

I second Annabel that you should start going to munches and reading up on BDSM on the internet. More familiarity with the scene will help attract potential partners and get you meeting people, too.

Good luck!
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  #26  
Old 09-20-2011, 09:15 PM
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Baron Baron is offline
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Dear Magdlyn

Thank you for your support. It is good to feel so welcomed.

Thank you.

Baron.
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  #27  
Old 09-20-2011, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuliaGay View Post
Thank you for sharing your side of things, Baron.

While I understand wanting to keep your commitment, I can see that you are both deeply unhappy and unfulfilled. I'm wondering why you stay together when it seems to me that separating could give you both the freedom find what you are looking for. I also wonder why you made the commitment even though, as you said, the conditions you felt you needed hadn't been met.

Whatever you choose, I just want to say that sometimes things just don't work out. You and RS have tried very, very hard to make them work. There's no dishonor in separating if you've given it your best effort. Life is a journey. It often doesn't go where you think it will or where you want it to. If that were the case, I'd still be with K. But K leaving me allowed N to come into my life and I have a wonderful life with him. Probably better than if I'd stayed with K.

I'm not saying that you two should separate. I know it will likely be very painful if you do. Just that I think you shouldn't be afraid to explore that possibility. Sometimes it is the best option.

Hang in there and keep posting, as Magdlyn encouraged you to do.

JG
Dear Julia

We stay together because we do actually love each other. There are also a number of events that happened that kept us together through thick and thin. We have also spent our time trying to resolve our differences. If there is an equal choice between moving forward or hanging back, I will naturally move forward every time. In the week before the wedding, it was either go through an overly-emotional "It's Off!" drama or take a risk. Without any certainties to rely upon, I only had guesswork to estimate what might happen next. I believed that without wedding arrangements occupying RS's attention, the huge public commitment we had made to each other would enable our relationship to change for the better. How could it not?

I agree that sometimes things don't work out, but if I am told that just a little more time or a new thing is needed, I have to give it a chance. If I don't then I could have given up right before it was going to be successful. It is a very frustrating situation that has really tested my patience. In fairness, Divorce and Separation have been likely possibilities for a while as things have not worked-out as they should. I do not believe that any other relationship has had this many resources and opportunities poured into as our one. It has not reasonably met my hopes or expectations so maybe I should end it. However, I am loathe to do so because I do care about RS very much and feel responsible for what happens to her.

One thing I will not allow is for things to remain the same.

Baron
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  #28  
Old 09-20-2011, 09:35 PM
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Baron Baron is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade View Post
Wow, Baron. If I were in Raspberry Surprise's shoes, I'd be crushed by your post. But if you guys have been married this long and in therapy, then probably nothing you've said is new to her. I give you credit for knowing yourself well enough to throw it all out there.

You two seem to love each other but have some fundamental incompatibilities. I guess the question becomes, do you stay together and work around them or give up and seek happiness on your own?

As a woman who spent many years with an unhappy husband, I can tell you that there is a certain amount of mistrust and resentment that develops. That is some tough shit to work through. Without even being conscious of it, I began seeing my husband as a self-pitying, self-righteous, martyring brat - which, of course, kills sexual desire and feeds the non-intimacy cycle. Even now, when we have a pretty fulfilling sex life, and he has other sexual and emotional outlets, I still have a strong negative emotional reaction if he's in a place where I perceive he wants something and I can't give it at the time. I think, "Oh no, here we go again. If I don't manage to put on the whore in the next three hours, I'll be emotionally battered."

I can't relate to your particular SM desires, but I feel confident saying that bringing someone else into your relationship, while relieving some stress, will create it's own unique ones. Please don't think, for even a second, that friendship necessarily alleviates time constraints. You will simply be replacing some old challenges with new ones.

It may work for you both. I would suggest, however, that if you choose to stay together, that while you're looking for your own fix, your wife be allowed the same freedom. You are seeking a situation which will leave her feeling continuously emotionally threatened, unless she is superwoman, has a Ghandi-like personality, or... not sure what I'm trying to say here, except that RS seems to have strong emotions which need to be channeled, rather than blunted.

Wow, guys. I feel like a little old southern lady, but honestly, Bless Your Hearts. Several years ago I would have read your posts and thought, "They're doomed." I'm not so deceived now. If you choose to, you can meet this challenge together. As long as your respect and love one another and yourselves, whatever solution you reach together will be okay.
RS has asked me to give my honest opinion. I would like to reassure everyone that it is not my intention to hurt RS's feelings As you say, there is nothing new that either side can say, but, as far as I'm concerned, there's no point in visiting the doctor is you are not prepared to say you are ill.

You put the essential question very neatly.

I often feel a bit fatalistic myself when I encounter the expected behaviour I have learned to hate from RS. It is not just a massive turn-off but makes me want to give-up and walk off. I have often found that these things work both ways.

I fully realise there is a huge potential for risk in changing a relationship in this way, but I have to ask myself if accepting the possibility of failure is worse than accepting the certainty of divorce. For me, this represents breaking the stalemate that has settled on both sides. I agree that time constraints are a problem, but the problems that come with this will at least be new ones and may bring us closer.

An interesting thought, but one that is very much in RS's hands.

People are only ever doomed if they give-up. Or don't do anything when they should. Or run down the dark passageway in a panic. Or are a red-shirt on Star Trek.

Baron
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  #29  
Old 09-20-2011, 09:36 PM
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Baron Baron is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
Hey Baron,

Very well written post! Major kudos on not wanting to drag a new person in to a messed up situation.

If I could offer one piece of advice, assuming that you and RS do decide to open your marriage, it would be to go to munches, play parties at your local dungeon, and local conferences, campouts, and other kink-lifestyle events. I live in a major metropolitan area, so I may be spoiled by having all of these things available. If you're not sure what the opportunities are in your area, you can always set up a fetlife profile and explore.

It's great that you have a past experience under your belt and lots of hot ideas, but I think that any relatively rusty/new kinky person would benefit greatly from meeting and talking to like-minded people, watching them play, and getting a feel for what possibilities are realistic, safe, sane and *awesome*.

These experiences will not only help you refine your ideas and techniques as a dom in preparation for finding that special sub (nothing is hotter than competence!), they will also expose you to lots of friends and like-minded folks who can counsel you through your poly problems. You may even find the lady you're looking for there, though I recommend going with learning in mind rather than dating, at least at first.

I think that saying "I will not a date a woman if she's not someone you can get along with and potentially become good friends with" is a fine criteria. You can keep things very casual with new women until they've "met the missus." But you can't *require* RS to be friends with anyone new. Friendship is tricky, just like love is, and it has to grow organically. I also think having her pick someone out for you doesn't make a lot of sense... after all, chemistry and compatability between you and your new partner has to be high for something to blossom, and who can really feel and identify that aside from you?

Good luck to you both. You shouldn't have to remain indefinitely unhappy.
Dear Annabelmore

I agree with you. Even if both of us were as equally and wholeheartedly behind opening up our marriage, I still wouldn't expect to leap in there for some time. There are a lot of loose ends that need tying off before crossing that final line. This is going to take months just to reach a point of equilibrium and an unknown period of time to actually find someone who matches whatever our needs have eventually been agreed. That's assuming that they actually like us and that there are no unexpected problems.

I have learned to be a realist over the years and I am very suspicious of awesome. It usually means I missed something. Help and good advice sounds like a good idea.

I like to know where I am. I don't want to make a commitment to someone that has not yet been approved of by RS. Perhaps I am being unrealistic, but at the moment I have no agreement with RS and I have no knowledge yet of what this other potential partner might want. There is a lot that is only guesswork and supposition. I am not comfortable with that. Things will only get better when I know what we are supposed to be doing.

Thanks, Annabel. You've given me a lot to think about.

Baron
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  #30  
Old 09-21-2011, 06:38 AM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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Hello, late to the thread here, but I thought that it might be helpful for you to do a tag search... you can do that from the search engine on the top right of the function bar. It isn't text book stuff to read here what others have posted. It sounds like you are in a mono-poly situation... or embarking on one anyway, maybe start with that.

I agree that adding new people to a couple who are not functioning well already will add MORE dysfunction rather than less. It might be an idea to have a good look at your reasons for staying together again before dragging some unsuspecting soul into your dynamic. I suspect that you are not wanting to hurt this person, so in spirit of making sure they have a good experience with you, I suggest doing what it is you need to do to figure out the logistics of what you need to see happen.

Last off. I have been discussing "gaslighting" on a group I write on and it might be helpful to read about it... I am not sure what is going on for you Baron, but it sounds like you and RS are in some kind of communication/emotional turmoil of mess. It might help to start learning about where that started and some ways to communicate differently. Here is a link on "gaslighting" Baron, for interests sake and as it seems it might be helpful judging by how you talk about RS. It might suit you to do a tag search for threads on communicating as well.

To be frank, if a therapist hasn't worked and you are that miserable then I think its time to throw in the towel, do some really heavy personal work and see what's out there in the dating world that is new after a year of two's time. It doesn't sound all that hopeful, I hate to say. Good luck.
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