Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > General Poly Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 09-17-2011, 01:20 AM
River's Avatar
River River is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NM, USA
Posts: 1,894
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
River, I've seen you scold members here when generalizations are made about differences between men and women. Someone who says something like, "Women are just more sensitive and compassionate than men are," often gets a rebuke from you. You would tell them not to generalize, that to do so is bullshit because there are plenty of sensitive, compassionate men out there and you are one of them. But now you're doing the same thing!
I sorta doubt that I am, but I'm certainly willing to explore the possibility. This stuff isn't exactly plain and easy!

What I tried to say is that LGBT people OFTEN have to much more deeply explore issues around sexuality, gender and relationships than many hetero / straight / "normal" people have had to do, and this fact has deepened our perspective on some of these matters "on average".

It is similar to saying that racial minorities have often had to examine very deeply the racial issues in our society, and that doing so has caused them, on average, to have more awarness and sensitivity -- and often insight -- into social power dynamics (for example) than those who are not racial minorities -- all on average.

Are there exceptions to these trends? No doubt there are.

Do I think average women are more aware of power dynamics with regard to patriarchy and sexism? Damn right I do. As a guy, I have to work a little harder to see the world the way a woman can here. And I think my being one of the marginalized has helped me to be sensitive in this way.

I've never meant to suggest that "straight" people are somehow less sophisticated than LGBTQ folks. Instead, I've suggested that LGBT folks have been handed a lot of lemons and some of us have creatively made lemonaide out of some of these lemons (though rarely all of them).

What is more, I know and love many straight/"normal" people (non-LGBTQ) who are extraordinarily conscious, intelligent, developed, sophisticated, awake, loving and beautiful. I don't have a preference for LGBTQ people over non-.

There are still many white people living in the deep South who think they are superior to black folks. If only they could be black for a little while, ideally in childhood, they'd perhaps wake the f**k up? And there are men who think they're better than women, etc.... Same for them. Right?
__________________
bi, partnered, available

River's Blog
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 09-17-2011, 03:20 AM
River's Avatar
River River is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NM, USA
Posts: 1,894
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
... but your statement was an implication that most straight men tend to be less than fully responsive emotionally, and that they are not able to be kind, sensitive, thoughtful, tender, vulnerable, feelingful, while also tough, rugged and "masculine."
This is where you misunderstood my words. I never said anything about "most straight men". Rather, I compared two groups of people. Biamorous men and "straight" men, on average. I think it must be a scientific fact that biamorous men are more androgynous, on average, than "straight" men. I don't have any documentation of that fact handy, but I think this must be a fact. If it hasn't been established scientifically, somebody has got to get on it. (No pun intended.) Realize, of course, that biamorous men are a tiny fraction of the category: men. Not all bisexual men are also biamorous, and even these are a tiny fraction of the category: men. Biamorous men are capable of being fully in love with persons of either sex. Merely being sexually turned on by persons of either sex is being "bi" in the conventional (bisexual) sense. My point is that we're talking about a tiny sliver of men, on average.

Now, bring together the biamorous men of the world. And bring together the non-biamorous men. I'm saying that the biamorous men will be, on average,
more emotionally androgynous than the "straight" men.

I have money to back up my bet. You wanna bet?
__________________
bi, partnered, available

River's Blog
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 09-17-2011, 03:29 AM
River's Avatar
River River is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NM, USA
Posts: 1,894
Default

Once again: I really like straight men. I have nothing against straight men. Some of my best friends are straight men. My very closest male friend, aside from my boyfriend, is a straight male. I do NOT believe most straight men are cave men, or unevolved, etc.... I simply suggested that biamorous men, on average, tend to be more emotionally androgynous, and that an awful lot of women are attracted to this aspect of our being. We are, on average (as suggested by some women in these fora) "more in touch with our feeling sides" (read, tenderness).

Well, ... duh?!
__________________
bi, partnered, available

River's Blog
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 09-17-2011, 06:50 AM
MonoVCPHG's Avatar
MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In Redpepper's heart
Posts: 4,742
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
I am about to make a stereotyping statement (but I'm not the only one to do that in this thread) --I have a certain picture in my head of the kind of masculinity I find attractive and a bisexual guy does not fit that picture. So, in general, I'm not usually attracted to a guy who identifies as bi. I know that conditioning is hard to get past. .
Wow! I really respect your honesty on this thread Nycindie. I'll be honest as well. While I do think a lot of guys hide same sex desires, I also find openly bi-sexual men pretty easy to spot. I'm not alone in this and I don't think it is a negative thing. People who meet RP's hubby often ask me if he is gay or bisexual. Who really cares thought?

Common traits I see in bisexual men...kindness, increased empathy for the world around them, less violent and ego driven personalities and increased gentleness. Do I think these attributes are stereotypes? Nope..they are what I observe.

I don't see expectations of "masculinity" to be a conditioned prejudice to get over. I believe those "old" views and attributes still hold validity in certain environments and social circles. Keep in mind I work in the military where the classic idea of "toughness" and emotional repression is not only expected but critical in certain situations regardless of gender - in this sense my views are skewed and more one dimensional.
__________________

Playing the Game of Life with Monopoly rules.
Monogamy might just be in my genes

Poly Events All Over
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 09-17-2011, 10:34 AM
Mya's Avatar
Mya Mya is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 338
Default

I'm not the target audience for this question since I'm bi myself. But I have to say that I find bisexuality/biamory in a man very attractive. I admit, one part of it is the thought of two men together which I find incredibly hot. But the bigger thing is what many people here have written and I have to agree with them: I can see the relation between being bi and being more feminine (soft, kind, emotional...) in a way. My husband is a bit bi-curious and he is like that, which I adore. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone and you can find the same features in a hetero man and also not find them in a bi man. But because I see the relation between these two things, I'm intrigued if a man tells me he's bi. It's definitely a plus.
__________________
My live-in partners: rory and Hank
I'm also dating Sol and Ray
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 09-17-2011, 11:19 AM
Magdlyn's Avatar
Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Metro West Massachusetts
Posts: 3,677
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mya View Post
I'm not the target audience for this question since I'm bi myself. But I have to say that I find bisexuality/biamory in a man very attractive... I can see the relation between being bi and being more feminine (soft, kind, emotional...) in a way. My husband is a bit bi-curious and he is like that, which I adore. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone and you can find the same features in a hetero man and also not find them in a bi man. But because I see the relation between these two things, I'm intrigued if a man tells me he's bi. It's definitely a plus.
I think we might be blurring the line between sexual preference and sexual identity. It's not so much to whom you are attracted than it is to how you identify. Any guy who is more on the trans/queer scale as ID is less likely to ID as a "manly man," John Wayne solider type, and be more on the feminine scale, impelled by their makeup to be more in touch with their feelings, more likely to be into traditionally feminine pursuits (like being discriminating about food and fine wines, clothes shopping, crafting such as sewing, nurturing babies, etc) and less into just cheap beer drinking and sports and cars. There are plenty of "metrosexual" men who are not bi or gay.

I kinda dislike the LGBTQ tag because it covers sexual preference and sexual identity. Trans is sexual identity. Queer can mean preference or identity. LGB is sexual preference.

miss pixi's bf IDs as bi, but right now he's kind of being a douche about her feelings. She'll pour out her heart about her inner feelings, and he'll just go, and I quote, "Yeah people are assholes. Wanna watch TV?"
__________________
Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37

Last edited by Magdlyn; 09-17-2011 at 11:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 09-17-2011, 01:33 PM
JuliaGay's Avatar
JuliaGay JuliaGay is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tacoma/Tucson (long story)
Posts: 75
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
I survived a horrible childhood, which I won't discuss here, but suffice it to say that I have had to overcome my own seemingly insurmountable odds. You think that just because I'm straight, I "don't know, from the inside, what it is like to have feared honest self-disclosure at a tender young age about a matter that could prove emotionally or physically deadly," but that is not true. No, my issues did not pertain to my sexuality, but I had secrets to keep about myself/my family that were very damaging to do so. However, this is not about who has the "best worst story."

More to the point... I just do not see the correlation that makes one who has been the victim of discrimination more open-minded or more in touch with emotions than anyone else. In fact, people who've been victimized can be even more shut down emotionally. What I was taking exception to is the almost-blanket statement that LGBT people are just more open-minded and emotionally evolved than heteros. Perhaps they are when it comes to matters of sex, sexuality, sexual identity, gender, but not necessarily love and relationships, nor anything else. You seem to be asserting that, since LGBT people have had to struggle with the issues surrounding their sexual identity and coming out that it makes them more sympathetic and sensitive overall, and therefore more in tune with their feelings and emotional development. This is similar to when someone says that poly people are more evolved than mono people.

I am not saying that LGBT folks have not suffered at the hands and attitudes of others. I am not saying they haven't been treated unfairly. I am not challenging the idea that LGBT people have had to overcome many obstacles and deep hurts to accept and overcome any issue surrounding sex, sexuality, sexual orientation, identity, etc, including the risk of danger for doing so. I am simply saying that hetero people can be just as emotionally developed, evolved, sensitive, and in touch with their inner lives than anyone else, and can have struggled with similarly devastating or radically life-impacting issues. Different paths to self-knowledge and emotional development, but pain is pain, confusion is confusion, and loss is loss. People can be marginalized for any reason. It is part of the human condition to question who we are and what we're about, so gender and orientation doesn't make one more adept at doing so in general, though one's experiences may make one more adept at such inner exploration in a particular area of life and/or personal identity.
Well, I had a big response all ready to go when Firefox decided to crash. Hopefully that doesn't happen this time....

I, too, had a horrible childhood. But those circumstances were not related to my sexual orientation. The journey I took to heal those wounds was vastly different from the one I took to accept and be proud of my queerness.

Because itís the dominant paradigm, it doesnít take any introspection to have acceptance of your orientation and live your life as a healthy, out and proud heterosexual. It just is the expected way to be. It does take a huge amount of internal work to be a healthy, out and proud homosexual or bisexual. I donít know anyone who has attempted or committed suicide because they were straight. I do know of a large number of people who did because they were queer. Itís my observation, over nearly 30 years, that queer folks in general are open minded about many things because of the work they did coming to terms with their sexual orientation. This is also true for poly folks in general, because of the work required to live a different kind of life than is socially ordained. Is it possible to be straight and open minded? Absolutely. I just find the percentage of straight folks who are open minded to be smaller than the percentage of queer folks.

I can tell you that living life as an assumed heterosexual is very different from living life as an assumed homosexual. (Iím using the word assumed because on the surface thatís what people see, unless they are close enough to me that I bother to explain being bisexual/biamorous.) My first primary partners were women, so the first 20 years of my adult life I publicly identified as lesbian. For the last 9 Iíve been with a man. The amount of heterosexual privilege in our society is astounding. Among other things, I donít have to worry about being beaten up or worse because Iím holding my partnerís hand or giving him a kiss. Now those things get benevolent smiles if they get any reaction at all. I have no societal struggle associated with being in a heterosexual relationship whereas being in a homosexual one was always a societal struggle.

Because of my struggles and internal work, Iím hyper-aware that I canít know what itís like to live in our society as part of other groups. And I believe that work has made me more open minded and more tolerant than I would have been had I been born straight.

JG
__________________
"But you've got to be tough when consumed by desire
'Cause it's not enough just to stand outside the fire
....
Life is not tried, it is merely survived
When you're standing outside the fire"
Garth Brooks and Jenny Yates
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 09-18-2011, 02:00 AM
Hardison Hardison is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 26
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
But back to the question...I am hetero but not poly. So hypothetically if I was single, I would be less likely to date a bisexual woman. Naturally, I would seek out a mono partner so this wouldn't be an issue though. If she was wired mono, she wouldn't be interested in others and I'm not into the two women one guy thing anyways.
Why do you seem to assume that if someone is Bi they can't also be mono?
I think it is quite possible to have an interest in both male and female (or even trans and gender-queer too) and still only want one partner.
__________________
Male, married, new here, not quite poly. (but poly curious)
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 09-18-2011, 02:19 AM
nycindie's Avatar
nycindie nycindie is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 7,288
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardison View Post
Why do you seem to assume that if someone is Bi they can't also be mono?
I think it is quite possible to have an interest in both male and female (or even trans and gender-queer too) and still only want one partner.
Someone I know once said that if he were interested in being monogamous with someone, he couldn't do that with a bi woman because she would always want "one of each" (as he put it) and therefore would always be looking for more partners. And I told him that for a monogamous person who takes commitments and "vows" seriously, it's the love and commitment that would override any kind of attraction to other people, whether they were straight or bi or what-have-you. When you're mono and you've found The One, it's The One! That's it, and you don't want to keep looking! I think you can still have a bisexual orientation and only want to be with one person -- I guess it just means that you wouldn't have a preference over what sex/gender The One would be. I don't think being bi automatically makes someone poly and in need of multiple relationships, just as being/living poly doesn't automatically require being bi.
__________________
The world opens up... when you do.

Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me. ~Bryan Ferry
"Love is that condition in which another person's happiness is essential to your own." ~Robert Heinlein

Last edited by nycindie; 05-01-2014 at 03:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 09-18-2011, 11:33 PM
River's Avatar
River River is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NM, USA
Posts: 1,894
Default

I have spent basically all of my adult life in committed, long term relationships--mainly two of them. The first lasted about six years. The second is still going at 15+ years. The first was entirely mono. The second has been mostly mono in effect/experience while being mostly poly in theory and design. Thing is, neither myself or my partner (Kevin) has
found or been found by anyone suitable for long term love, until recently. And I don't really do casual sex. And he mostly doesn't either, especially lately. So, in effect, I've been mono in effect, or something like that, most of my life. Until recently. Only difference being, until recently, that Kevin & I are cool about the other finding--or being found by--another love, or two.

While I've had snuggles and cuddles and lots of hugs and a few kisses with others (apart from Kevin) over the last several years, that's as far as it has gone. I guess I'm just pretty damned selective. And whenever I haven't been highly selective things have gone pretty bad, fast.

I'm not looking to complete a set of two, "one of each". By chance, my Faraway Sweetie
is female. That's pretty neat! But not planned.
__________________
bi, partnered, available

River's Blog
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
attractions, bi-women, biamorous, biamory, bisexual, bisexuality, heterosexuality, love, meditation, pansexual, poly vs. open, polyamorous, polyamory, polysexual, steriotypes

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:32 AM.