Broody men, Jealousy, and Poly

[nycindie]

Originally Posted by trueRiver

it matters to me, and to many men.

Because you've been taught to believe that it matters by patriarchal society. A child needs love to thrive, and a loving community meets that need.

I would suspect that, if not for the fact that the Na know which bellies children pop out of, it probably wouldn't matter who the mothers are either. This is about creating family and caring for all the children communally, not just the ones who came out of a particular man's seed.

[Tonberry]

I would suggest that when you try she uses physical contraception with any other partners, and none with you. When she gets pregnant, assume it is your kid. If you really want to make sure, get a paternity test done at birth.
Since you said you want some of the kids you raise to be yours biologically but not necessarily all of them, if the kid happens to be genetically someone else's, rince and repeat. At least one of your kids should be yours biologically, and the chances of her getting pregnant from someone else when trying with you and trying to avoid with others are very low.

Other ways to limit the chances are to avoid reproductive sex with other partners while trying to get pregnant with you. So, oral sex, manual sex, anal sex, but no intercourse. That could be a middle ground that would allow for sexual satisfaction, especially if you try for a long time, and would negate the risks of getting pregnant. As to whether it's fair, I don't know, ask them what they think. It's the kind of decision that should be made with everyone involved, after all.

I can't pretend to understand why it matters to you to share genes with the children you raise, after all, I don't want any biological children, but since it's important to you, I think you should make sure to let the other people in your poly circle know right away, because it's probably important. I think another option would be to just let things happen and then take paternity tests if you and another man both want kids, because if the women who are part of the circle want several children, chances are one would be yours. But it seems to be something you really, really care about and don't want to take chances on, so...

Either way, good luck.

[trueRiver]

Originally Posted by nycindie

...
I have some questions: If you had two girlfriends, how would you handle it if they both became pregnant? What if one of them was married?

Firstly, I'd be delighted. I'd spend time with both kids, sometimes both together, sometimes apart. I'd *want* to be contributing around 50% of the childcare for each child.

Secondly, what would I expect? In an ideal world, do you mean? Or in our current disfunctional anti-poly world?

In an ideal world, I'd expect all fathers to have the right to share their children's upbringing, irrespective of who else the mother was in a relationship with. Fathers who refused to do so would (after a reasonable time) lose those rights, or need court process to retrieve the situation later. If there was an ongoing reasonably permanent polyfamily, then I'd expect all the polyparents to have rights too.

In our world, if I had another child with a married woman, I know what would happen, I have been there (thouigh not in a two pregancies at once scenario)

Secondary in a vee, planned pregnancy, when mum changes mind about my involvement in our child's regular care, and just limit me to a few houirs a week, I had no rights at all beyond those few hours. Because mum is married, husband has more rights than I do because that is the relationship the English state wants to encourage. He had "parental responsibility", I did not.

What kind of control could you expect to exert over that situation?

My question here is about what the parties negotiate to happen up front, what is reasonable to ask for, what is unreasonable. It is not about "control" or "ownership". I would, however, assume that everyone was negotiating in good faith, not just figuring that they can agree to anything becasue the law will not enforce it.

I am not sure what you meant by "control" - but I am not going to discuss this further with someone who just wants to tell me what they think I should want

All you can do is be prepared financially and legally to handle whatever occurs.

an accurate statement of English law.

I do not want to sidetrack my own thread any further here, but if you want to start a new thread to discuss whether that legal approach situation is right or just, I will likely join in.

I am not asking for legal advice here, but advice on the human, relationshippy side of the question.

I would like to think that I could trust fellow polys to keep to agreements that have been made. Maybe that is naive.... but I reckon there must be a better chance with polys than with the mainstream.

[trueRiver]

Originally Posted by nycindie

Because you've been taught to believe that it matters by patriarchal society.

nycyndie, I find your persistence with this personally offensive. It is not the topic of this thread to discuss whether men *should* be broody, but how those of us who actually *are* can combine that with being poly. You are of course welcome to start a new thread, but please stop hijacking mine.

But in fact, to correct your incorrect and very presumptious assumption: I was taught to believe that by my feminist mother who believed that equality meant men could take an equal role in parenting, and should do so whenever possible, who encouraged by broody tendencies from around age 3 when she first identified them, and with some delight I think.

She was, of course, from a different generation of feminists from those who subsequently sought to exclude men from childcare.

[trueRiver]

Originally Posted by Tonberry

...I can't pretend to understand why it matters to you to share genes with the children you raise, ...

I don't understand it myself, just like I don't understand why I like chocolate, to take a trivial example. But it is a fact about me. Thank you for accepting this and not trying to change it.

[Derbylicious]

It seems to me that ideally you will find partners who share your ideals. The way your original post was worded gave me the knee-jerk reaction of "it's her body and her life and pretty much up to her what she does". You speak a lot of control of who she is allowed to see and what she is allowed to do.

I assume that you're not going to meet someone and immediately work on impregnating them. So there's some time to see if your goals match. There are ways to prevent pregnancy. If you and the woman who you are with have agreed that the 2 of you will be the biological parents of a child I would suggest barrier methods with other partners as well as charting her basal body temperature. That way she can have sex with the apropriate partner on the days that she is fertile.

[trueRiver]

Originally Posted by Derbylicious

It seems to me that ideally you will find partners who share your ideals. The way your original post was worded gave me the knee-jerk reaction of "it's her body and her life and pretty much up to her what she does". You speak a lot of control of who she is allowed to see and what she is allowed to do. ...

hi Derbylicious,

This is very helpful feedback.

What was it about my original post that gave you that reaction?

If you can say more I'd appreciate it because that is exactly what I do *not* want, that is I neither want to *be* controlling, nor do I want to *come* *across* as controlling (two overlapping issues).

I can understand the pull towards being controlling in this kind of situation, and can find those tendencies in myself, and part of my self-perplexity at present is how to remain true to what I want, without at the same time becoming a control freak in order to (try to) get it.

Does that make sense to you?

[Derbylicious]

Originally Posted by trueRiver

Like, OK, so we adopt fluid boundaries, the idea being XX can have sex with other guys without getting pregnant... Yes, but then what if the contraceptive fails... Automatic abortion? that sounds really icky to me...

Or do we say that XX can't have sex with fertile blokes while we are trying for a baby? Is that a fair thing for me to insist on?

How would some of you poly ladies here feel if your bf asked that in those circumstances? You can have sex with other fellas but not risk pregnancy?

This is the part that came across as sounding controlling. Like I said it was my knee-jerk reaction. Especially the part with the agreement of not having sex with fertile men, that would really cut down on her potential dating pool and the potential to let love develop where it will.

[trueRiver]

Originally Posted by Derbylicious

This is the part that came across as sounding controlling.... Especially the part with the agreement of not having sex with fertile men, that would really cut down on her potential dating pool and the potential to let love develop where it will.

Thanks for your clarity. My thinking here is that it would only be for a time, not for ever, of course. Does that make it feel less controlling?

Do you have any suggestions about how to raise these kind of ideas, or the ones that Tonberry made earlier, so it comes over as 'this is what I would really like' (negotiation) rather than 'this is what you must do' (control).

I have had experience in the past (not on this issue) of attempts at equal negotiation being received as controlling demands, so any more hints you can give me will be useful.

[ImaginaryIllusion]

Originally Posted by trueRiver

nycyndie, I find your persistence with this personally offensive. It is not the topic of this thread to discuss whether men *should* be broody, but how those of us who actually *are* can combine that with being poly. You are of course welcome to start a new thread, but please stop hijacking mine.

River~~, your thread is in the General Discussions area, and as such is open for discussion, which may meander from the subject on occasion. If you want a thread protected from opinions counter to your own, then there's the blogs & stories section. As it stands, NYC's comments of patriarchal upbringing are quite relevant to your question if you take the time to look at the root of your feelings and the society around you that reinforces them. You started talking about your confusion, and asked for thoughts and opinions, and NYC's been offering some of what you asked for...maybe just not the ones you were expecting. If you're feeling offended, perhaps ask yourself what's causing that instead of accusing another of hijacking.

Originally Posted by trueRiver

I have had experience in the past (not on this issue) of attempts at equal negotiation being received as controlling demands, so any more hints you can give me will be useful.

NYC's example of the Na provides a matriarchal example for comparison, and an alternative view of how the broody need for men to raise children who are genetically related to them can be fulfilled, and with a greater degree of certainty than trying to figure out paternity.

Regardless of the way the Na live, western society is still a Patriarchal Hierarchy, with the passing of property, names, etc, running along paternal lines. The problem being is that up to recently paternity is impossible to determine with absolute certainty, so there's a history of several thousand years of various attempts to control the reproductive capacities of women in the vain attempts of men to ensure their progeny was genetically their own.
Burka's, chastity belts, female circumcision, religiously mandated monogamy, double standards surround adulters vs adultresses, are just a few examples.

I posted links to a Gwynne Dyer documentary here, which is a good backgrounder on where all this patriarchal nonsense comes from, and the consequences of which surround almost everything we do in this society.

So, if you're wondering why your negotiations about ensure paternity take a turn towards accusations of control, it's probably because men have been trying to do as you have for a few millenia, and it's not always appreciated by the women who do the heavy lifting of carrying the baby's to term, give up their bodies to breastfeeding, etc...no matter how politely you may be about asking compared to some ancestors...like say Henry VIII.