Beginning with disaster. Is all lost?

[MorningTwilight]

Originally Posted by troubles

He didn't want me to go farther with the other man than he did with the other women. Sorry if that was unclear.

And it sounds like he was also unclear, beforehand. No one can know what is in another's mind without actually being TOLD. This is not your fault. I'm not saying it's his, either--there was miscommunication, and now there are hurt feelings. It happens all the time.

Originally Posted by troubles

I felt guilty on my own. He did say the first thing. I can't shake the guilt, because it does seem selfish to me in some regards.

Why do you feel guilty? You had a new experience--with your husband's blessing--and found that you really enjoyed it. There is NOTHING there to feel guilty about. Yeah, you went farther with the man than your husband thought you would, but he didn't TELL you beforehand, did he? You are not to blame for failing to read his mind!

As for "selfish," I find that funny (not in a "ha ha" way). My wife told me she thought I was selfish for wanting to live as a poly, but it's she who wants me all to herself, does not want to share, and wants me to choke down my feelings so that she doesn't have to deal with fear or discomfort.

So, I don't think you're being selfish, either, especially if you are considering your husband's feelings. I'm not saying that you should tiptoe around them, but keeping them in mind and not deliberately doing anything to hurt him is definitely not selfish. Be open and honest (and gentle) about what you want, and have a look at the many threads here about opening a relationship.

[redpepper]

It sounds like he assumes you should know his boundaries. That isn't fair. Stuff happens and all there is to do is keep talking and keep working towards an agreement. There is nothing to be guilty about in that. That's how it works. Ya, maybe this was too fast for him, but vetoing is extreme and controlling. Taking a break to reorganize and figure some stuff out is necessary and smart!

[trueRiver]

Originally Posted by redpepper

It sounds like he assumes you should know his boundaries. That isn't fair.
...

He was assuming you would know his boundaries even when he didn't know them himself. This is not just unfair, it is irrational.

And yet, it is a very human way to be irrational, too. I have caught myself on this one, most of us do it sometimes. So yes, I agree it is neither your fault nor your responsibility, but would also suggest it is not his 'fault' either.

It *is* however his *responsibility* to sort out his own irrational expectations, so I agree they need to be challenged.

Take time, though, to notice the huge compliment implied in those expectations: he expected more of you than is humanly possible, which is unfair, unreasonable and very flattering too.

[Magdlyn]

Originally Posted by troubles

So, my husband and I have been together for 12 years. We have always fantasized about having an open relationship, so much that we even have been actively searching for another couple to experiment with.

So, for 12 years he wanted this? I am not surprised you were then blindsided by his negative reaction when he and you actually tried it.

As luck would have it, a friend (female) of mine expressed interest. Her husband is cool with it, and we had a great time making out and fooling around. We involved both boys (on separate occasions). My husband was there the first time, hers the second.

So, after you and he and the woman had your threeway, he thought it was great. And he gave his blessing to you getting together next with the other couple. Then, all of a sudden, he wasn't so on board! This is jealousy and selfishness.

The second time, things went a bit further, and my husband felt hurt. I misunderstood what he had said (we all did)...

So, you and the other couple all understood him to be on board with the next step, did what you felt he was cool with, and then your dh pulled back.

and I should have communicated better with him. He has vetoed the whole relationship indefinitely.

Ultimatums are always jarring, and impractical. Jealousy can cause someone to reel in fright though, and close the barn door when the horse is already out.

I have apologized over and over (we all have). I have tried to be a better wife. Granted, it's only been a week, but each time we talk, he says he didn't realize he wanted only me, and wanted me to want only him.

Oh men! I think this is soooo common. Men get all excited, their cocks get hard, and then they actually have some sex, and then experience a period of disgust. "How could have wanted this? I feel like a pervert." This happens not just in poly situations, but in other areas as well. Once the semen is drained, they then change their mind.

I don't think it's mature of him to have fantasized about this very experience for 12 years (probably in great sexual detail), in tandem with you, and then you two find willing partners, and then, all of a sudden, he's pulling back. No wonder you were surprised.

Will time heal this? What else can I do? This is my first experience with a woman, and I like it a lot. He feels like he gets nothing out of the potential relationship.

Well, he did have a "great time" with his 2 women, but then you had a great time with a woman and a guy and suddenly, he realizes he's getting "nothing" out of it. Uh huh.

[trueRiver]

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

So, for 12 years he wanted this? I am not surprised you were then blindsided by his negative reaction when he and you actually tried it.

Agree with you so far, 'blindsided' is exactly it.

So, after you and he and the woman had your threeway, he thought it was great. And he gave his blessing to you getting together next with the other couple. Then, all of a sudden, he wasn't so on board! This is jealousy and selfishness.

and here, Magdlyn, is where I part company with you.

It seems obvious to me that the man, also, was blindsided by his own reaction. Does nobody else see this? The guy has wanted something for 12 years, then when he gets it, it turns out not to be what he wanted after all.

Has this never happened to anyone else? I don't mean just regarding sex, I mean in any part of life? Every time you wanted something, worked for it, waited for it, every time it turned out as good or better than you expected? If so, I am envious of you.

It is jealousy, yes.

Selfishness, no. The selfish thing for him to do here would be to ask to go on with the part he enjoyed, and ask the woman to stop the part he has trouble with. In fact, within his new understanding of what he wants, he has acted with equality. Please notice this, and give the guy some credit here for at least trying to apply a fair standard.

So, you and the other couple all understood him to be on board with the next step, did what you felt he was cool with, and then your dh pulled back.

because only then did he find he was jealous. He figured it would be OK, up front, but it was not. Maybe he did not think he would be jealous, maybe he figured he might be, but did not know up front how bad it would feel

None of this stops him being responsible for how he deals with his unexpected feelings. It is primarily his responsibility as it his him who has had a sudden change of feeling. He has no right to blame anyone else (if he is), but equally, nobody else has the right to blame him for not knowing up front what his experience would feel like.

Ultimatums are always jarring, and impractical.

as a long term 'solution', yes I agree. As a short term holding fix, while everyone, including him, work out where to go next, it does seem to me to be understandable.

What needs to be made clear, though, is that there is no way back to where the couple were before.

One of the couple has found it a wonderful experience, the other has not. That is a huge challenge for them to overcome. I suggest accepting the ultimatum as a short term measure, backed up with clarity that the conditions for acceptance are that the couple both continue to discuss the way forward from here. If need be, that can be put as a counter-ultimatum.

Jealousy can cause someone to reel in fright though, and close the barn door when the horse is already out.

Exactly. There are ways to address jealousy, google 'polyamory compersion' for some ideas on this. There are lots of useful threads on this forum and elsewhere. (Someone who knows this forum better than me might like to post some cross links to useful threads)

But please do give him time to work through the unexpected feelings that have come up.

Oh men! I think this is soooo common. Men get all excited, their cocks get hard, and then they actually have some sex, and then experience a period of disgust. "How could have wanted this? I feel like a pervert." This happens not just in poly situations, but in other areas as well. Once the semen is drained, they then change their mind.

Please think about how you feel when men make this kind of remark about women's periods. Many women enjoy/suffer huge changes in what they want on a monthly cycle. It is hormonal. Many men, as you have clearly noticed, enjoy/suffer huge changes in what they want before and after sex. That is hormonal too.

You have no more right to make this kind of sexist remark about a man than I would have to make the same kind of derogatory remark about a woman who refuses sex due to PMT. (And to avoid any doubt, I do not make those kinds of remarks, and try to interrupt them when others do)

You should not blame anyone for hormonal changes, or ridicule their entire gender for it.

It is fair and reasonable to treat adults as adults, and expect them to take prime responsibility for dealing with their own hormonal changes.

...
Well, he did have a "great time" with his 2 women, but then you had a great time with a woman and a guy and suddenly, he realizes he's getting "nothing" out of it. Uh huh.

Again, unfair. He has opted out of repeating his "great time" hasn't he? If he accepted the ongoing situation he would probably have had that happen again, right? That is not "getting nothing"is it?

Please Magdlyn, look again at what you have written. I usually like your posts, but not this one.

You will not help this couple resolve anything by blatantly taking sides like this, especially not when you make it into a gender loyalty issue. It is a difficult situation that was totally unexpected by both of them, and will need a spirit of good will to sort out, not a spirit of blame.

[nycindie]

It absolutely is selfish to veto any and all activities with the other people forever, in reaction to uncomfortable feelings he has. The mature and unselfish thing to do would be to discuss exactly why he's bothered by it and see how they can make it work. I think there definitely is an issue here surrounding the fact that he was okay with fucking his wife and the other woman, but suddenly it's an issue when his wife is with another man and things go further than he thinks they should. Very telling. As I said earlier in the thread, I don't think he is upset about his wife being with a woman, it's about being with another man. He's simply being possessive. That the OP said "I have tried to be a better wife" really points to the number and guilt trip her husband is laying on her about this whole thing. He's reacting immaturely and blaming it all on her. No wonder she feels guilty.

Troubles, you have no reason to feel guilty or obsessed. And you shouldn't be afraid to talk about this with him. When my husband was upset about something, I used to sit him down and say, "We can't avoid this anymore. We have to talk about it until we get somewhere," and then we did.

He sounds like a bit of a dictator: "Now we will have sex with other people... now it is vetoed... you are untrustworthy... I don't want to talk about it." Sheesh, he's your husband and partner, not your boss. It sounds like you need to be strong and stand up for yourself.

[hoorayjeebus]

Ugh. I wrote a huge reply and when I hit "send", got a login screen instead!

So I'm just going to rehash my take on everything quickly.

1) Lack of communication - not your fault, not his fault. See this as a learning experience to communicate in more detail, more explicitly, before next time (if there is a next time)

2) I think your husband is hurt and scared, so he is pulling back. It's too early to tell whether he is "truly" mono, or whether he is just trying to protect himself. I think blaming him on his reaction, or blaming you, is not a constructive way to view the situation. (as an aside, boundaries change, obstacles come up, feelings can get hurt, etc. expect this sort of thing with poly & open relationships. The "cure" is usually lots of respect, trust, love, and communication)

3) Poly forums everywhere all seem to have at least one view in common: ULTIMATUMS ARE BAD. But instead of simply condemning the act, view this as a signal flag that there is some work to be done or some issues that need to be resolved. It's unlikely that he's issuing an ultimatum because he's a controlling jerk. It's more likely that he is attempting to control the relationship because he feels threatened, hurt, and scared. Try to get at those issues so communication can be restored.
(as an aside, obviously he is not handling the situation in the best manner possible. But both of you are new at this, and mistakes and mis-steps are bound to be made, so at this point, I think taking a tack of empathy and consideration regarding his attempt to control the situation is the wiser course)

4) I personally think that most healthy relationships do have "off limits" behaviors, but I'm not sure this is the majority view in the poly community. My view is that if two people are in a loving, committed relationship with the other, that they DON'T WANT to see the other person hurt. That doesn't mean don't talk about anything. That doesn't mean things can't change. But I think maybe giving him the time for both of you to work through this without the (what he now sees as a) threat of another relationship will be the healthier way to go, and the quicker route to rebuilding trust. It's entirely possible his viewpoint will change when he's in a good place again, but it may not. Again, it's too early to tell. I would personally suggest holding off on attempting to re-open the relationship until that point is reached.

5) It's OK to feel bad that your husband's feelings got hurt. But unless there was some intentional deceit, don't think that you're a bad person or untrustworthy. I think these types of situations happen pretty frequently in poly, especially if the couple is new. Navigate these situations *as a couple*. I heard some excellent advice on another forum: what's good for the couple may not necessarily be what's good for Person A or Person B. I've found that to be true in my own (brief) experience with poly. (caveat: this isn't intended as a recipe for simple self-sacrifice - that's not good for the couple either. It's been helpful for me to view my own relationship with my wife from a different perspective than two people both struggling to get what they want, in isolation and opposition to each other)

[Magdlyn]

Originally Posted by trueRiver

.

It seems obvious to me that the man, also, was blindsided by his own reaction. Does nobody else see this? The guy has wanted something for 12 years, then when he gets it, it turns out not to be what he wanted after all.

Has this never happened to anyone else? I don't mean regarding sex, I mean in any part of life? Every time you wanted something, worked for it, waited for it, every time it turned out as good or better than you expected?

The difference now being, there are 4 people involved, and his reactionary stance has hurt 3 of them. All fun and games with him and 2 women, and then his wife gets some cock and he's all, OHHHH I never want you to want another person ever again!!!

Please think about how you feel when men make this kind of remark about women's periods. Many women enjoy/suffer huge changes in what they want on a monthly cycle. It is hormonal. Many men, as you have clearly noticed, enjoy/suffer huge changes in what they want before and after sex. That is hormonal too. You have no more right to make this kind of sexist remark about a man than I would have to make the same kind of derogatory remark about a woman who refuses sex due to PMT.

Sure, I have a right. Is it kind and polite? No, but it's my truth and I am going to state it. By the way, I may be a cisgendered woman, but I am genderqueer (and post menopausal) and my gf is a transwoman. She used to be loaded with testosterone and has told me many times of the crazy things she did while extremely horny in her teens and early 20s, and how let down and ashamed and disgusted she'd sometimes feel right afterwards. And how more than one of her "boyfriends" would use her for gay sex, cum, and then kick her out and not talk to her at school the next day, in fact, make disparaging remarks about her being a "fag" in front of their macho friends, when they had been the ones with their cocks in her ass.

It's not derogatory, it's a fact.

You should not blame anyone for hormonal changes, or ridicule their entire gender for it.

I don't feel I was ridiculing anyone. My impatience with this unfortunate aspect of men's sexuality is real, and they themselves admit it, as do women who suffer from irritability when premenopausal. *shrug*

You will not help this couple resolve anything by blatantly taking sides like this, especially not when you make it into a gender loyalty thing.

Again, I am genderqueer, I have no "gender loyalty thing."

[hoorayjeebus]

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

The difference now being, there are 4 people involved, and his reactionary stance has hurt 3 of them. All fun and games with him and 2 women, and then his wife gets some cock and he's all, OHHHH I never want you to want another person ever again!!!

I'm going to jump in here. I agree that this looks suspicious. If the husband wants to keep his freedom to see other people, but take away his wife's, then that would definitely point to some selfish motive. I'm assuming that the husband is also willing to "give up" other people, but I didn't see that explicitly stated anywhere.

However, given that they are both new at the game, I think it's at least just as likely that this is just an honest fumble.

Because of that, I think giving the husband the benefit of the doubt will help heal any damage (definitely unintentional, but damage nonetheless) more than casting a suspicious eye on him.

Of course, I could be wrong, but if he *is* just being selfish and manipulative, then I think that will become clear as time goes on. If he's not, then taking a suspicious stance right off the bat will probably further erode communication between husband and wife.

So - what I'm saying is it makes more sense right now, from a loss-gain perspective, to go forward with an empathetic type of approach. It's the best chance of restoring communication and trust.

Agree?

[trueRiver]

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

...Again, I am genderqueer, I have no "gender loyalty thing."

I withdraw my gender loyalty remark, a toxic assumption on my part. Sorry