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Old 12-11-2010, 07:27 PM
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whatamIdoing whatamIdoing is offline
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Default Losing the Battles so I can win the war....

I think I"m going to need a place to put all my stuff... my thoughts and feelings and what happens...

I need to keep this part of my life here... for several reasons...

Yesterday I kissed hubby (B) goodbye and got in my car and drove 2 hours to see my new friend (J). It was our first time together since we decided to try to have a relationship and it was an almost spur of the moment meeting. I asked him on Wednesday for Friday and he said yes. We were supposed to have the day together on January 8th as our first date just for the day but instead our first date turned out to be an overnight....

oh the joy
oh the fear
oh the nerves

Let's start with the fact that B is really struggling with this. I have never had a friend like J and B is "letting" me explore it but he's hurting emotionally. He is feeling bad about himself and he thinks I no longer want him that now that I am skinny I want skinny guys. this is so not true... but no matter what I say he will not believe me... so I just have to wait him out...

Sour Girl very wisely told me I would have to lose some battles to win the war... it was very sage and helpful advice. I did not understand it totally until this morning as I was getting ready to drive home to my husband.


And I wasn't sure what I wanted... I know more now and I see now that I need a place to put my thoughts, feelings and ideas. And while I am not keeping it a secret... this part of me is not easily found as I use a different screen name here than anywhere else... so I can really write what I need to... my non poly friends don't really get it. And I'm trying not to be excited and obsessive with B about it.. but that is HARD... I want him to share in my joy and excitement and HE CAN'T. He can't be happy for me while he's hurting and scared for himself. But he's trying to let me do this and I know he's hoping that it won't be a long term thing.

I got to J around 2:30 pm and we talked.... and watched some tv... no kiss no cuddle... nothing that would indicate we were anything but casual friends...

We managed to make some dinner and eat and then sat on the couch talking for quite a while... tentatively starting to have some physical contact... more than casual friends... less than lovers....

We talked about B's comfort level... how he is not coping with this well. how we need to wait for him to be more comfortable.... we talked about where we are and what we want... at this point we have a FWB relationship... not putting any time frames or limits on it... we LIKE each other, but he would like to find a woman to build a life with who could deal with me.... that would be his ideal... and getting B to deal with him would be my ideal.

Amazingly enough B needed to call and it was about computers and we both rushed to J's computer and looked up his new computer and were talking to him and all three of us were laughing and it was PERFECT... my DH on the phone and my "boy toy" with me all of us comfortable and relaxed.

That little perfection lasted a few minutes....

When B got off the phone J said how fine he was with B calling as needed.... and how he understands that my family will intrude somewhat on our time but on the other hand my family has to accept that occasionally he will intrude on my family time.... and that will work... for me and J... B is not ready even for that...

J and I ended up watching movies while cuddled up on his bed... NOT knowing what would happen I was prepared for almost everything but getting comfy and casual so I ended up in one of his tee-shirts... we cuddled and watched movies and talked and talked and talked till 4:30 a.m. and finally I said "J, I need SOME sleep shut up"....

we talked A LOT about B... about how right now we have to talk about it and let him find his comfort... how if he can't find it we will have to not have visits. J said he would never want to give up our emails... I thought that a bit funny as they are sporadic and not anything other than friendly chit chat most of the time... Our connection is voice and in person...

We talked about how it's our brains that connect not a physical connection... and yet when we cuddle we fit well...

Amazingly enough to me, even though our initial thoughts on what our relationship would be was NSA sex... we have opted to table that based on B's comfort level. We talked about how we can wait till B is ready for us to progress (within reason and limits that have not been determined yet)... and today B tells me he's not sure he will ever be ready for me to have sex with J.... he said he is fine with my visiting J and spending time with him but my swinger husband is not sure he can cope with my sleeping with J.

So here I am, laying in a bed with a man in a tee shirt, bra and panties and he is in a tee shirt and we just cuddle... NOT a kiss to be had... not a sexual touch at all... it was sheer heaven for me....

I text B at 10 to tell him my cell is at 36% and dying.... and give him J's number if he needs me....(at J's suggestion)

B texts me a few times... but my phone has been shut off to conserve power so he texts J stuff indicating he thinks he is losing me. That J won.... it was comical to us... and yet tragic at the same time as J knows that my pain for B will affect us. He is getting that while he does not have to have a friendship with B they have to be civil and they have to respect each other....

J texts him back a few polite messages that I'm staying because the weather is a bit bad (wet roads under 30 degrees means black ice....) this was around midnight and says to me that eventually B will have to learn that while he can access me when I am with him, that a time each evening when I stay over will become, NO LONGER taking TEXTS time... seemed fair to me... a few more texts came in and J ignored them till after the movie was over...

J is being very respectful of B's needs and yet also knows he needs to set a few of his own boundaries. At one point we had talked about spending the weekend of February 18-20 since B is going to a race weekend..... but B on Friday specifically asked me not to spend that weekend with him since it's his birthday weekend and he wanted me to go racing with him but that's so boring for me to watch them race I declined. I explained to J that B did not want me with him on his birthday weekend and while I think it's foolishness, J said he understands... I think we are both a little disappointed.

I fear that since most of his racing days (which are the days I can go see J) are not overnights that we will have very few overnights

I feel asleep around 4:30-5 a.m. I awoke around 8 and noted that at 7:30 B sent me a text that he would be home in about an hour... he had gone with his female friend to drop off her horse... it was a long drive and she really hit on him... B tells me that jokingly while he was driving he suggested she give him a BJ and she did... then she wanted to get a hotel room to fuck... and he was totally turned off... she is just so crass for him... had she suggested a hotel room to get some sleep he would have gone for it...

Yes B is having a huge double standard.. and J and I know it...and yet we can deal with it for right now....

anyway after I got dressed I woke J to walk me to my car (I did not want to walk to my car in the back lot alone) and he pulled me back to bed for a cuddle... I kissed him on the cheek a few times and we cuddled a brief time... he got up got dressed walked me to my car, we hugged and kissed goodbye ( a very chaste few kisses) and I headed home. J sent me a text asking me to let him know that I got home safely... i thought that very sweet...

all in all our visit was spectacular... we had fun,yet we were respectful of B's needs. we talked a lot, our connection grew deeper..we seem to be totally on the same wavelength about what we want from our relationship and yet both are aware that we are going day by day to see how it plays out...

We won't see each other again till January 8th and that is just a day trip for me I can't spend the night. I'm not going to stress over the inability to stay over as often as I would like at least not at this point...

Last edited by whatamIdoing; 12-11-2010 at 07:38 PM. Reason: forgot some stuff
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:56 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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I haven't read this closely, but at some point I will go back and do so.

It sounds like you are putting a lot of effort into this whole "polyamory" business, and I am sure you will benefit from the personal growth experience this is providing. Remember that the "war" you will be winning is that you will be at peace and at ease with YOURSELF, and you will gain by maximizing the advantages of all the relationships you find yourself in from now on. You seem to be sincerely dedicated to treating yourself and your SO's respectfully, which is all that anyone can ask.
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Old 12-12-2010, 06:04 AM
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whatamIdoing whatamIdoing is offline
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Originally Posted by NeonKaos View Post
I haven't read this closely, but at some point I will go back and do so.

It sounds like you are putting a lot of effort into this whole "polyamory" business, and I am sure you will benefit from the personal growth experience this is providing. Remember that the "war" you will be winning is that you will be at peace and at ease with YOURSELF, and you will gain by maximizing the advantages of all the relationships you find yourself in from now on. You seem to be sincerely dedicated to treating yourself and your SO's respectfully, which is all that anyone can ask.

thanks... I'm just doing the best I can
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Old 12-11-2010, 08:59 PM
Fidelia Fidelia is offline
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I've been following your thread on the New to Poly board, and I want to say that I really admire the way you and J are working together to show B respect, support and consideration as he works through his fear issues. Both your partners are lucky to have you.

That said, something in this post really triggered me, and I need to comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatamIdoing View Post
B tells me that jokingly while he was driving he suggested she give him a BJ and she did... then she wanted to get a hotel room to fuck...
This is complete and total BULLSHIT on B's part, and ridiculously UNFAIR to you and J. You can't pursue a relationship, after all this time in a "poly" marriage, but he can sex up his friends whenever he feels like? Aww HELL NO! *SNAP*

If it were me, this would be the end of the line for the double standard. I would require my husband to choose from either:
A: the end of all extramarital relations so that he could concentrate fully on overcoming his irrational fears, which I would support in the short term by refraining from same, or
B: STFU about his irrational and unfounded fears and allow me the same freedom he has enjoyed for some time now. Perhaps seeing me go out with my bf and come home to him a few times would likely go a long way to calm his fears.
But there is no way in hell I would continue to be one in my marriage doing the lion's share of the work to address HIS problem.
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Old 12-12-2010, 06:06 AM
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whatamIdoing whatamIdoing is offline
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Originally Posted by Fidelia View Post
I've been following your thread on the New to Poly board, and I want to say that I really admire the way you and J are working together to show B respect, support and consideration as he works through his fear issues. Both your partners are lucky to have you.

That said, something in this post really triggered me, and I need to comment.


This is complete and total BULLSHIT on B's part, and ridiculously UNFAIR to you and J. You can't pursue a relationship, after all this time in a "poly" marriage, but he can sex up his friends whenever he feels like? Aww HELL NO! *SNAP*

If it were me, this would be the end of the line for the double standard. I would require my husband to choose from either:
A: the end of all extramarital relations so that he could concentrate fully on overcoming his irrational fears, which I would support in the short term by refraining from same, or
B: STFU about his irrational and unfounded fears and allow me the same freedom he has enjoyed for some time now. Perhaps seeing me go out with my bf and come home to him a few times would likely go a long way to calm his fears.
But there is no way in hell I would continue to be one in my marriage doing the lion's share of the work to address HIS problem.

B is struggling so hard to be fair... he has bad self image and no self esteem and he thinks maybe he might want to go back to a conventional marriage and stop swinging... we are just learning about Poly to be honest...

he is trying to let me do this...

another post to explain tonite's mess is forthcoming
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Old 12-12-2010, 06:15 AM
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whatamIdoing whatamIdoing is offline
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well today has been a struggle.

B is soul searching... and we are stressing about it.

went to a party where a lot of the folks KNOW J. they also know I am starting a relationship with him and wanted to know how yesterday went... B was stressed... he's wondering now if he even wants to continue swinging or exploring the open marriage thing... Poly... well we don't even really mention that...

then it gets bad... I fell asleep on the couch with B trying to talk to me... then I hear my cell phone get a text... and it's midnight... and it's J. J never texts me... and he asks me to call him...

I call him and he is trying to ask if it's OK if he takes me away from B at this point of OUR saturday night. which was very very respectful... and B misunderstood it... it was hard... he stormed out. I had to hang up on J then calm B down and then I called J back...

J needed to vent and rant about the gaming world... it's a valid rant but not on a saturday night at midnight when he's had too much to drink....

oh this is so complicated... why does it have to hurt everyone.

I feel torn... it's my time with B. I was with J yesterday and yet he is very upset and needs to talk to me... it's the FIRST time he's needed to talk to me since we started this... and I could not be there for him...

Last edited by whatamIdoing; 12-12-2010 at 02:25 PM. Reason: added some punctuation to make it read easier
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Old 12-12-2010, 03:29 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Originally Posted by whatamIdoing View Post
then it gets bad... I fell asleep on the couch with B trying to talk to me... then I hear my cell phone get a text... and it's midnight... and it's J. J never texts me... and he asks me to call him...

I call him and he is trying to ask if it's OK if he takes me away from B at this point of OUR saturday night. which was very very respectful... and B misunderstood it... it was hard... he stormed out. I had to hang up on J then calm B down and then I called J back...
Was he more upset that he was trying to have a conversation with you, and you fell asleep, but when the bf calls you jump? Sorry but that isn't respectful. If it was "your" night, and he was texting about nothing important, than he was disrespecting your time. For that matter, you kind of disrespected him too by falling asleep on one, and jumping for the other.

You guys are new to this, this type of thing is VERY poignant in his head. He needs to feel his time is special and completely validated without interruption. Its polite and will likely get better with time as he finds his footing. The double standard is mentioned below, I agree, it is a double standard, so hopefully you can find a solution to make it work (see below)

Initially having set times, especially recovery "talk" times might work really well. If your hubby is someone who needs clear lines of "battle" as it were, its YOUR job to maintain that. If he is an open minded person, you can constantly renegotiate those lines as he gets more comfortable.

Quote:
J needed to vent and rant about the gaming world... it's a valid rant but not on a saturday night at midnight when he's had too much to drink....
Especially when the conversation was about absolutely nothing important.

Quote:
If B has the right to contact me when I'm with J (these are J's boundaries btw) then J feels he has the right to contact me when I am with B. This is within reason. I understand why J needed me last night... there were only a few friends he felt close enough to that understood the issue... B understands the issue... but not the need for J to rant to me at midnight....
Yes its a double standard, but B is having the problems with the relationship and trying. Have you thought of making dead times. Instead of the WHOLE night not being available to call, say "from 8 to 10 we would like time to ourselves" this concedes points for everyone.

I am with neon for the record, a midnight call is never acceptable, unless its a real emergency.

J is being a jerk, but as the hinge you could be making concessions to try and help him along. When you first taught your kid to swim, did you toss him in the water at the age of 1 without water wings and watch him flounder? (yes, I know some people do this, but I couldn't think of a clearer analogy) Help your husband along, come up with small concessions in either direction and ensure your husband knows these can be renogotiated. it sounds like your husband wants to try, but he is always being pushed.

Lastly, as for the self esteem. Has he sought couselling, they might be able to help with the esteem issues and having him see himself for more than a sack of flesh. Humans are far more complex and interesting than just their bodies.

I guess sort of lastly, you are all trying to make concessions, your are all trying to figure out your place in this new relationships structure, you are ALL making small mistakes that offend the others. If you can attack each mistake like a challenge in an RPG and just figure out concessions for everyone you will be a lot better off.

Ari
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Old 12-12-2010, 05:04 PM
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whatamIdoing whatamIdoing is offline
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Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
Was he more upset that he was trying to have a conversation with you, and you fell asleep, but when the bf calls you jump? Sorry but that isn't respectful. If it was "your" night, and he was texting about nothing important, than he was disrespecting your time. For that matter, you kind of disrespected him too by falling asleep on one, and jumping for the other.
yes! you are correct. this did upset him as he told his friend on the computer (and he showed me).. and you are all right! I did handle that very badly. of course both B and I were working on minimal to no amounts of sleep from the night before.. and to be honest... J's text was to see if I COULD call and he would have been fine had I NOT.... so the truth is I handled it very very badly... I disrespected my husband.... since my phone NEVER comes to my bedroom texting me at any time is acceptable... if i'm not there I don't get it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
You guys are new to this, this type of thing is VERY poignant in his head. He needs to feel his time is special and completely validated without interruption. Its polite and will likely get better with time as he finds his footing. The double standard is mentioned below, I agree, it is a double standard, so hopefully you can find a solution to make it work (see below)
it will get better... your pointing out to me how I was wrong is very helpful and very much will contribute to my handling it better next time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
Initially having set times, especially recovery "talk" times might work really well. If your hubby is someone who needs clear lines of "battle" as it were, its YOUR job to maintain that. If he is an open minded person, you can constantly renegotiate those lines as he gets more comfortable.
yep we have debriefings as it were... lots and lots and LOTS of talk time both B and J seem to need that right now.. as we find our footing and our places in this relationship quagmire... we are renegotiating over and over almost on an hourly basis... and I see B moving towards more and more acceptance... he even said to me this morning... "every time my comfort level starts to rise something like last night happens and pushes it right back down"... WOW! I HEAR YOU BABE... he asked me to please text him often today so he knows I care. I can do that. and I will.. he is so really trying



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
Especially when the conversation was about absolutely nothing important.
well it could have waited till this morning/afternoon but it's actually something that is pretty important to all of us... but still it could have waited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
Yes its a double standard, but B is having the problems with the relationship and trying. Have you thought of making dead times. Instead of the WHOLE night not being available to call, say "from 8 to 10 we would like time to ourselves" this concedes points for everyone.
yep that's exactly what J was saying on Friday night that after a certain time it's dead phone time... and yet last night he did not respect that.. of course he and I have not set those hours yet... and to be honest with him having so little face time access to me I do feel he should have a bit more leeway than B when it comes to phone access.... but truthfully unless his house had burned down or his mom had died a midnight phone call was unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
J is being a jerk, but as the hinge you could be making concessions to try and help him along. When you first taught your kid to swim, did you toss him in the water at the age of 1 without water wings and watch him flounder? (yes, I know some people do this, but I couldn't think of a clearer analogy) Help your husband along, come up with small concessions in either direction and ensure your husband knows these can be renogotiated. it sounds like your husband wants to try, but he is always being pushed.
yes J was being a jerk last night... and i handled it so badly... I did. and I hurt B and lost all the progress we had made that day....

and yes B does want to try... he truly does... and I'm trying to find my lost little way here... we will talk about this more when he gets home tonite and hopefully when I talk to J this afternoon he is ready to hear that drunken midnight phone calls or texts are no longer acceptable...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
Lastly, as for the self esteem. Has he sought couselling, they might be able to help with the esteem issues and having him see himself for more than a sack of flesh. Humans are far more complex and interesting than just their bodies.
yep this is true... and B feels he is not interesting to me or smart enough for me or educated enough for me... and it's not true. I don't care about those things.... hard to get B to see it however... B dropped out of 9th grade. he has never been able to pass the GED... he's tried several times before he met me... he thinks he's stupid.. he's not.. he's just not educated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
I guess sort of lastly, you are all trying to make concessions, your are all trying to figure out your place in this new relationships structure, you are ALL making small mistakes that offend the others. If you can attack each mistake like a challenge in an RPG and just figure out concessions for everyone you will be a lot better off.

Ari

and that is a GREAT way to present it to them... both of them do RPG although I do not...

thank you so very much for all your time and help it's truly appreciated!
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Old 12-12-2010, 06:27 AM
Fidelia Fidelia is offline
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whatamIdoing:

I want to be really, really clear on this point: however you want to handle your situation is 100% your business, and NOMB. I have great respect for the kind and considerate way you and J are growing your relationship. I really do.

But from your descriptions of the situation, your husband seems to want little more than "to have his Kate and Edith, too" while you tenderly care for his insecurities and fears. And the basic unfairness of that is a trigger for me. I acknowledge this as my trigger and my problem, and certainly don't mean to imply that what I think should impact your situation in any way.

I just needed to express my outrage, that's all. Whatever you decide to do will be the right course of action, I'm sure.

I sincerely wish you the very best as you make your way forward.
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Old 12-12-2010, 10:28 AM
FitChick FitChick is offline
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It seenms to me that B needs to work on his own issues,that aside from the poly stuff,there are other things going on,fear of abandonment etc,that maybe he needs to talk to someone,other than you about.
Something I have learnt to do is when my bf is with his ex wife,or ex gf and their respective children,(we have a boundary of no texting during this time),is send him an email articulating my thoughts(sometimes its more than one) that he can read and respond to later,that way he knows how I've been feeling without interrupting his allocated time with the other important people in his life. It took some time to negotiate this but it has got to the point where it is working well,and is keeping everybody calm..
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